Imagine the outrage if an "I believe him" poster went up this weekend at the rugby
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Originally posted by eamonhonda View PostImagine the outrage if an "I believe him" poster went up this weekend at the rugby
If you end up getting doxxed on Twitter you can get off the hook by saying you were referring to Richard Satchwell
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostSure you get fucked on proper cocktails after two or three of them. My problem with it is I'd drink far more than 4 in the two hours and keel over.
Rent cap applies to the apartment, you'd be paying 4% more than the other dude max.
"Gibney might be the greatest hero of our time." (Keane, 2012; Hitchhiker, 2017)
"Frank Gibney, he's my favourite ." (careca, 2012)
"Frank Gibney, he's my favourite." (mikeb, 2017)
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Not much of a worst start to a day where the boss set up a 8.30am meeting and cancels it 10 mins before the meeting starts. If he pulls the same shit tomorrow, there will be some strong words...
Meetings never should be scheduled before 10am ever!No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by eamonhonda View PostI haven't a clue if I'm honest. An impossible one for juror to call unless they have more to go on than what's reported.
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Originally posted by Ed View PostFair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it
In my opinion it is a necessary evil.
In the PJ case I agree with Eamo. Impossible to know for sure. It is very possible that she thinks what happened constitutes rape and the lads don't. Consent is a difficult thing to establish 100%.
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Originally posted by Ed View PostFair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it
It would certainly colour opinion."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Ed View PostFair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it
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Originally posted by Ed View PostFair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it
Only thing is, what's the alternative?airport, lol
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Originally posted by Ed View PostI'm not sure what the appropriate alternative is but would argue that if i accused someone of punching me, I wouldn't be subjected to the same level of grilling that the woman in this case seemed to have been.
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Originally posted by Ed View PostI'm not sure what the appropriate alternative is but would argue that if i accused someone of punching me, I wouldn't be subjected to the same level of grilling that the woman in this case seemed to have been.
Not commenting on this particular case by the way, haven't spent much time following the trial reports.
Edited to say that eoghan's swifter replies outline the point better than I did
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Originally posted by eoghan104 View PostNot an even remotely fair comparison.
Why not, obviously anecdotal but beyond being asked if i'd said something or done something to the person to cause them to punch me, I don't think i'd get the same degree of "how much did you have to drink that night?", "were you out looking for a fight?", "what were you wearing?" that rape victims get
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Originally posted by eoghan104 View Postfor example, If you said " I was walking home last night and Eoghan104 punched me, I have no physical evidence of this I can just prove we were in the same place" there wouldn't even be a trial.
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Originally posted by eamonhonda View PostI haven't a clue if I'm honest. An impossible one for juror to call unless they have more to go on than what's reported."Gibney might be the greatest hero of our time." (Keane, 2012; Hitchhiker, 2017)
"Frank Gibney, he's my favourite ." (careca, 2012)
"Frank Gibney, he's my favourite." (mikeb, 2017)
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Originally posted by Ed View PostWhy not, obviously anecdotal but beyond being asked if i'd said something or done something to the person to cause them to punch me, I don't think i'd get the same degree of "how much did you have to drink that night?", "were you out looking for a fight?", "what were you wearing?" that rape victims get
Obviously a very different scenario than an alleged rape victim given a cross examination about the most harrowing experience of their lives, but that general line of questioning is standard in these type of things.
I can confirm that I did not have to reveal what I was wearing though, but it was probably jeans and a shirt.
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Originally posted by Ed View PostWould think that's wrong, if you punched me a couple of times in the side of the head and there's no obvious bruises showing because i have quite thick hair, you'd just get away with it? Don't think so
Here is a better example... I believe that we were having an organised fight that we both consented to, I then punched you in the face. You say that you did not consent to face punching in the fight. I expect you to be grilled here yes. especially if the outcome will ruin my life.
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Originally posted by eoghan104 View PostAgain not comparable. In your anecdote there seems to be no question of the fact I did punch you.
Here is a better example... I believe that we were having an organised fight that we both consented to, I then punched you in the face. You say that you did not consent to face punching in the fight. I expect you to be grilled here yes. especially if the outcome will ruin my life.
fwiw, i do get that people get wrongly accused and that we all should have recourse to be able to defend ourselves. I'm just of the opinion that the nature with which someone who more than likely has gone through a horrific experience (can't imagine that many people would argue that most people who go as far as reporting rape aren't telling the truth) is being forced to relive it in view of an audience while continually being blamed for it is clearly a significant deterrent for people to report these crimes.Last edited by Ed; 08-03-18, 15:07.
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Originally posted by dobby View PostWhat's the alternative? Just believe every person that accuses someone of rape?
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Originally posted by Ed View PostBut I didn't consent? Now what, i have to prove that i didn't.
fwiw, i do get that people get wrongly accused and that we all should have recourse to be able to defend ourselves. I'm just of the opinion that the nature with which someone who more than likely has gone through a horrific experience (can't imagine that many people would argue that most people who go as far as reporting rape aren't telling the truth) is being forced to relive it in view of an audience while continually being blamed for it is clearly a significant deterrent for people to report these crimes.
That is the burden of proof an is the lesser of two evils.
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Originally posted by eoghan104 View PostUnfortunately yes you do have to prove it.
That is the burden of proof an is the lesser of two evils.
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Originally posted by Denny CraneSo I can go round punching people in the face and they have to prove that I didn't have consent?
Why does that confuse you? As Hitch said this is the most basic legal requirement.
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Originally posted by Denny CraneSo I can go round punching people in the face and they have to prove that I didn't have consent?
Why does that confuse you? As Hitch said this is the most basic legal requirement.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostBurden of proof is always on the prosecution, thats like the most fundamental feature of the legal system in every criminal case no matter what the potential crime. You'd hardly suggest changing that cornerstone of the system?!
Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?
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Originally posted by eoghan104 View PostWhy are we talking about punching in the face still! You are twisting my words to suit your argument but yes if I punch you you have to prove it. If I rape you, you also have to prove it.
Why does that confuse you? As Hitch said this is the most basic legal requirement.
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Originally posted by Keane View PostIf someone takes my keys off my desk and drives off and wraps my car around a tree, I call the guards and say my car was stolen - is the court case really going to involve me proving I didn't give my permission for a randomer to take my car?
Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?
Though in your outlined case it would be a terrible defence as assuming you are telling the truth your 'I've never met this person, never gave them my keys' evidence couldn't be cracked in the slightest by the defence.
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Originally posted by Denny Crane View PostI'm just perplexed why you have so much more concern about the accused than the alleged victim? It seems like one of the few (if any?) crimes where that seems to happen?
I have a lot of concern for victims and I agree that this case will have negative effects on people coming forward in the future.
That doesn't change the fact that there is no easy alternative to grilling the victim. Have you got one?
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Originally posted by Denny Crane View PostA fraction of serious sexual assaults are reported, and even less prosecuted. I don't get why there's so much more concern about false accusations. Especially when someone who reports a case goes through such an ordeal.
I actually think the lads are guilty but it's up to this woman and her legal team to prove that we can't just assume she's telling the truth and lock them up.
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Originally posted by Keane View PostIf someone takes my keys off my desk and drives off and wraps my car around a tree, I call the guards and say my car was stolen - is the court case really going to involve me proving I didn't give my permission for a randomer to take my car?
Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?
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Originally posted by Keane View PostIf someone takes my keys off my desk and drives off and wraps my car around a tree, I call the guards and say my car was stolen - is the court case really going to involve me proving I didn't give my permission for a randomer to take my car?
Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?Turning millions into thousands
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Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View PostThe case could happen that way, the 'with permission' defence has been used in theft cases.
Though in your outlined case it would be a terrible defence as assuming you are telling the truth your 'I've never met this person, never gave them my keys' evidence couldn't be cracked in the slightest by the defence.
An accusation of rape has been made, which involves sex and consent elements. There seem to be ways to prove this to be untrue - prove the accused wasn't in the same country, show that they have no willy etc.
If your defence is 'we had sex, but there was consent', it seems like you are actively adopting the burden of proving the consent. This would seem to reasonably apply in situations where permission is not assumed as a matter of social convention.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostThese cases tend to be vastly more covered by the media so there tends to be more opinions on them, plus as there's always a dispute as to whether something happened (which isn't the case with most other crimes), then there's going to be more differences of opinions.
It really does seem like it would be better if these cases weren't tried so openly in the media though. Instead maybe just let the courtcase happen and then report on summary of what happened afterwards - that would be a lot better for the victim too, as that girl seems to have suffered hugely by this case whatever the outcome. But no-one would be talking about it if there wasn't 20 news articles a day on the topic.
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Originally posted by Keane View PostDoesn't that imply that the burden is on the defence to prove permission was given?
An accusation of rape has been made, which involves sex and consent elements. There seem to be ways to prove this to be untrue - prove the accused wasn't in the same country, show that they have no willy etc.
If your defence is 'we had sex, but there was consent', it seems like you are actively adopting the burden of proving the consent.
Perhaps our system is better suited to "it wasn't me" cases rather than "there was no crime" defences.
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Originally posted by Keane View PostYeah the blanket coverage of it is dreadful. It's been impossible to avoid.
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Originally posted by Keane View PostYeah the blanket coverage of it is dreadful. It's been impossible to avoid.
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Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View PostIt can seem that way from reading the reports. However the judge will emphasise in his summing up that the burden of proof ultimately rests with the prosecution.
Perhaps our system is better suited to "it wasn't me" cases rather than "there was no crime" defences.
Maybe it's an angle more defences should work for thieves etc!
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It might be easier to just drop all of the 'what if it was a punch instead of a rape' and 'what if it was a stolen car instead of a rape' as I think it just complicates this discussion.
Obviously everyone has or should have the deepest compassion for anyone who was sexually assaulted and nothing for the guilty party other than anger and disgust, but right now surely this is still an innocent until proven guilty situation, seems like a 'he said she said' until definite hard evidence is introduced and the jury reaches a decision?
Keane, the peculiarities regarding determining iron-clad consent in these situations are definitely worth thinking about further and society probably needs to do so much more. Just like using condoms maybe has become ubiquitous when it comes to random sexual encounters (I hope!) maybe society can move towards some kind of easily introduced, non-mood-killing way of recording or assessing consent immediately prior, during and after sexual encounters? Can't think of any such ways myself at short notice but is it something that is needed to eliminate all 'he thought he had the go-ahead, she was actually giving strong 'stay away' vibes' situations that occur?
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Originally posted by PSV58 View PostYou think it’s bad now wait till the verdict, guilty or not guilty there is a solid few weeks of outrage ,stupid hashtags and tweet storms about all men are part of the patriarchal rape culture conspiracy waiting to be unleashed .airport, lol
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Originally posted by Keane View PostDoesn't that imply that the burden is on the defence to prove permission was given?
An accusation of rape has been made, which involves sex and consent elements. There seem to be ways to prove this to be untrue - prove the accused wasn't in the same country, show that they have no willy etc.
If your defence is 'we had sex, but there was consent', it seems like you are actively adopting the burden of proving the consent. This would seem to reasonably apply in situations where permission is not assumed as a matter of social convention.
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Spent a few hours at Nuclear Medicine today at the local hospital. I was having a laugh about the fact my appointment letter said to bring a cheese and ham sandwich as PART of the examination. Got a good giggle from it.
Went long, had a cannular put in, then had to do a treadmill test and when I was jogging they injected the radio isotope.
After that I was asked to go to the little waiting room and have my food. Which after being fasting from the night before, was a welcome thing.
Afterwards I had a test where I lay on a bed with arms above head, strapped to it and told to be very very still for 15 mins while the machine took loads of pictures of my heart.
It is a two-part test and at the end was given an appointment for Tuesday and this time it said a Cheese and Ham sandwich with butter! crazy!
On the way home I get a FB message from a local guy and he said it was to do with absorption of the isotopes. I came home and googled it.
Sure enough, they need the fatty food for it. Some countries say a sausage roll.
It's a funny old world!
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