Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[ArmaniJeans]

That's disappointing.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Solksjaer!]

Many many miles ahead on attitudes to immigration, for example. One of lowest gender pay gaps in Europe, suggesting genuine gender equality. Only European country to have a referendum on legalising gay marriage and win it. (unlike Germany thats only getting around to that now after loads of opposition, and France which had massive protests around the introduction of gay marriage). Medicinal cannabis introduced without even a whimper, albeit very restricted. These are big things. The biggest thing is social attitude to immigration - there seems to be no sense of immigrants being secondclass citizens in Ireland which they clearly are in nearly every part of the continent.

I think he means we can't marry our livestock yet. Not sure if that is in the constitution

[DeadParrot]

Have finally caught the actual flu.
Honestly think I might die. Weak as a kitten and every muscle aches.

[DeadParrot]

Have finally caught the actual flu.
Honestly think I might die. Weak as a kitten and every muscle aches.

Or the man flu version of the actual flu.
Which of course, is,10, 000 times worse

[Dice75]

That's disappointing.

Ah ffs

[shrapnel]

Many many miles ahead on attitudes to immigration, for example. One of lowest gender pay gaps in Europe, suggesting genuine gender equality. Only European country to have a referendum on legalising gay marriage and win it. (unlike Germany thats only getting around to that now after loads of opposition, and France which had massive protests around the introduction of gay marriage). Medicinal cannabis introduced without even a whimper, albeit very restricted. These are big things. The biggest thing is social attitude to immigration - there seems to be no sense of immigrants being secondclass citizens in Ireland which they clearly are in nearly every part of the continent.

Pretty easy to have a good "social attitude" to immigration when 95% ( i made that number up but it can't be far off ) is composed of a migrant workforce who comes to Ireland for work, and leaves as soon as jobs run out. You also probably have less than 5% illegal immigration (doubtful even that high), and to top it off, you still have a negative net migration .

Ireland needs foreigners!

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[RichieM]

Considering the rate at which they're reported, the low conviction rate, and the ordeal for the victim I'd definitely be more worried about the latter.

It's a very one sided battle
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/doze...ender-1.791296

that is shocking and I am really surprised.

If I was convicted of rape I would be surprised if my family hugged me let alone friends and priests.

EDIT
Thats from 9 years ago actually, I think that there will be less sympathy now - at least I hope so.
Disappointingly that guy has been been out of Jail for at least 4 years.

[Solksjaer!]

At a meeting this morning someone mentioned Substrate. I thought he said sit up straight. I was ready with the hypocrite reply when I realised my mistake and slumped back down deep into the chair. Need a bito sleep.

[6starpool]

Considering the rate at which they're reported, the low conviction rate, and the ordeal for the victim I'd definitely be more worried about the latter.

It's a very one sided battle
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/doze...ender-1.791296

I'd imagine that far more guilty go free than innocent get convicted. How do you go about removing the trauma from the victim though? I may be wrong, but I think it is not something adequately solved anywhere.

The defendant has a right to a proper defence though if they are contesting the charge.

I'd imagine the % of time the accuser is outright lying is very small. There will be times when they might not be able to properly remember due to drink or other influences, and so on.

How do you fix it without shifting the burden onto the defendant to prove to they didn't do it? This is a problem I various types of crimes, but there is not usually a living personal victim (or accuser) who has to endure and often take part on these trials.

[Guest]

This memo being released looks like a big popcorn moment, the dems are in full on panic mode so there is obv some juicy stuff in it.been reading the Washington post a bit recently,some of the writing in it can get quite unhinged for a paper of record

[Denny Crane]

Net migration is now positive again (for the last two years), but the substantive point makes sense tbf. We've a better class of migrant!

Speaking of migrantion, I'd like to move abroad for a few months, but I reckon I'd have a slim chance of getting as good of an apartment when I move back to Dublin. Presume you're not allowed sublet?

[Guest]

Pretty easy to have a good "social attitude" to immigration when 95% ( i made that number up but it can't be far off ) is composed of a migrant workforce who comes to Ireland for work, and leaves as soon as jobs run out. You also probably have less than 5% illegal immigration (doubtful even that high), and to top it off, you still have a negative net migration .

Ireland needs foreigners!

Our geographic remoteness ,plus the fact we have never had a very large influx of migrants from a country we have been plundering makes it easy to have that good attitude too

[Strewelpeter]

That's disappointing.

Its a very big call for HRI to make Irish racing subscription.
People in the business would know better but I thought that above and beyond the $$$ having Irish Racing FTA was a great boost for the industry that would be hard to quantify but very valuable.

I'm assuming that the deal guarantees full Irish coverage on a dedicated channel because otherwise its too stupid for words.

[shrapnel]

This memo being released looks like a big popcorn moment, the dems are in full on panic mode so there is obv some juicy stuff in it.been reading the Washington post a bit recently,some of the writing in it can get quite unhinged for a paper of record

i could be way off, but i didn't think it was the actual content of the memo which was popcorn, but the fact Nunes changed the content after it had been approved and signed off by whatever committee signs off on these things

[Strewelpeter]

This memo being released looks like a big popcorn moment, the dems are in full on panic mode so there is obv some juicy stuff in it.been reading the Washington post a bit recently,some of the writing in it can get quite unhinged for a paper of record

Would you not be in panic mode the day the infrastructure of state crumbles around you and the POTUS goes into full blown banana republic dictator mode.

Doesn't matter a fuck what the memo says, whether Nunes made most of it up or not, is utterly irrelevant.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Guest]

Its mad the distance the country has come tbh. From fully backward (they were still covering up priest child abuse around then) to highly progressive in 20 years is quite remarkable.

Heard a bit of the referendum debate on radio this morning, sounded like the starting point was somewhere towards the front of the Bible!

A republic where all debate starts from a religious perspective!?

Ya have a fair way to go yet!

[Guest]

Seems to be a lot of hints, mainly from bond market, that US equities won't have a nice time over next while. Will be interesting to see what happens when people start making the same false equivalences as Trump does: Trump's tax bill crashed the market. He has kinda made that bed himself though.

I do wonder about the poor saps (psv included by his own admittance) who allow themselves to be distracted by shite like this nunes sideshow. Its the type of crap that serious people would sit in a room scheming and dismiss as 'there's no way people could be distracted by this'; but then Trump arrives and the rules seem to be changed on how gullible people can be assumed to be.

Cmon now “serious “ people have been tying themselves in knots over Russian collusion for over a year now and nothing has been proven. The dems helping the FBI building a case of collusion based on a paid for research dossier is at least as likely as the Trump-Putin buddy movie plot that has been spun over the last year

I’ve no skin in the game just annoys me how the gems are portrayed as white knights in the irish media when they are anything but.and I enjoy watching the type of people who think the West wing was a documentary having meltdowns about this stuff. It’s all entertainment to me, most likely thing is that the memo will be a letdown for entertainment purposes though

[jack90210]

Measuring the quality of our immigration against our European neighbours who have open border policies means nothing. How do we compare against a proper merit based immigration system would be more interesting.

[Denny Crane]

could you not strike a deal with a friend, friend of a friend? Are you thinking somewhere like Barca? Seems to be where all the traders like to be based at the moment.

Yeah I'd hope to, but it's a hefty amount for a 1.5 bed. Thinking Berlin when it gets warmer.

[Denny Crane]

Measuring the quality of our immigration against our European neighbours who have open border policies means nothing. How do we compare against a proper merit based immigration system would be more interesting.

Our current system keeps too many Brazilians out of the country as it is, I say open the borders.

[Guest]

Net migration is now positive again (for the last two years), but the substantive point makes sense tbf. We've a better class of migrant!

Take a stroll through tyrellstown and tell me if we have a better class of immigrant.

[Guest]

Our current system keeps too many Brazilians out of the country as it is, I say open the borders.

Yes dole need more 10 euro an hour cash in hand cleaners. Abd also more transsexual hookers 🤗

[Solksjaer!]

Take a stroll through tyrellstown and tell me if we have a better class of immigrant.

Used to work out that way. The locals were worse.

[Solksjaer!]

Heard a bit of the referendum debate on radio this morning, sounded like the starting point was somewhere towards the front of the Bible!

A republic where all debate starts from a religious perspective!?

Ya have a fair way to go yet!

Sample size.

[ArmaniJeans]

Take a stroll through tyrellstown and tell me if we have a better class of immigrant.

I know two (white Irish) families in Tyrrelstown and both basically love it.
With another kid on the way soon, one mate and his wife have sold their two bed to buy a 3 bed on the next street down.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Guest]

I’ve found immigrants from south and mid African countries seem to be very well equipped to integrate into irish society.maybe not a surprise if some are causing trouble (if they even are) if you dump them out in some isolated shit box facility desert west dublin suburb

[eoghan104]

Its a very big call for HRI to make Irish racing subscription.
People in the business would know better but I thought that above and beyond the $$$ having Irish Racing FTA was a great boost for the industry that would be hard to quantify but very valuable.

I'm assuming that the deal guarantees full Irish coverage on a dedicated channel because otherwise its too stupid for words.

Maybe I am getting this wrong but it already subscription on ATR no?

Or is it a case that RTE are losing the small amount of meetings they show also?

[jack90210]

whats happening in Tyrellstown?

fwiw I have frequently traversed Talbot Street thinking we've a worse class of locals.

It’s not just Tyrellstown - Balbriggan, Lusk, Clonee, Ongar and Mulhuddart all been affected too.

[Guest]

I’ve found immigrants from south and mid African countries seem to be very well equipped to integrate into irish society.maybe not a surprise if some are causing trouble (if they even are) if you dump them out in some isolated shit box facility desert west dublin suburb

In fairness I guess they deserved a mansion with bono as a neighbour.

[eamonhonda]

Intelligence flowing in here today. Can we revert to yesterdays style at least both sides had a point

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[eamonhonda]

You can throw those hipster games away then

[Hectorjelly]

I never find myself particularly disagreeing with much of what Hectorjelly says, but just find it all so joyless and very difficult to relate to, almost on disingenuous levels. Otherwise day to day life must be a real struggle for you if you genuinely react to things to the levels of what I read on the daily here in your never ending pursuit of the fundamental rightness of absolutely everything.

I was thinking about this post this morning. People might find it odd that I take such a joyless attitude towards such trivialities as darts women etc. I have the opposite view - for me if you want do something to reduce the amount of rape/sexual harassment/more minor infringements then you need to change the culture we live in. All of those crimes takes place in a culture that to some degree enables them. As noted by Eoghan I think, rape is really an awful crime for everyone, even the alleged perpetrator as its so hard to prove (and the corollary of that is its almost impossible to disprove). I actually can't understand anyone who doesn't think this is something we should be trying to improve.

Credit to Robin for showing me this, but this is what Ireland was like for women quite recently. http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/arti...not-do-in-1970

[Strewelpeter]

Maybe I am getting this wrong but it already subscription on ATR no?

Or is it a case that RTE are losing the small amount of meetings they show also?

No ATR is free to air for anyone with a satellite dish or a basic Cable TV subscription. RTE will continue to have terrestrial rights for the meetings they cover.
UK Racing is a relatively expensive stand alone subscription that is not included in any of the SKY / BT EIR sports packages.
Only a small minority of pubs pay for UKRacing but just about every pub in UK and Ireland show ATR live. IMO being free to air in 99% of homes and pubs has been a huge benefit to the profile of Irish racing during the last decade. Hiding your premium Irish Racing brand away from the vast majority of viewers under a UK branded channel that is already covering 5 times as much lower quality racing seems to me to be utter madness.
There is still a lot to find out about the makeup this deal but it strikes me that if ATR are in trouble then HRI should be working with them to improve their revenue not running away for the sake of a quick buck.
If ATR fold as they could well do now, how much will UKR be offering next time around?
What will happen to the extra money, inflated pots for Grade 1 owners and a token luckpenny for stable staff and small yards is long odds on.

Maybe this is isn't real that its just some sort of a kite flying exercise as part of negotiations. If it is real allowing it leak on the eve of such a crucial weekend for the sport is ludicrous.

[Strewelpeter]

Looks real ok

Here is a RacingPost report that asks many of the same questions as I am.

[eamonhonda]

I was thinking about this post this morning. People might find it odd that I take such a joyless attitude towards such trivialities as darts women etc. I have the opposite view - for me if you want do something to reduce the amount of rape/sexual harassment/more minor infringements then you need to change the culture we live in. All of those crimes takes place in a culture that to some degree enables them. As noted by Eoghan I think, rape is really an awful crime for everyone, even the alleged perpetrator as its so hard to prove (and the corollary of that is its almost impossible to disprove). I actually can't understand anyone who doesn't think this is something we should be trying to improve.

Credit to Robin for showing me this, but this is what Ireland was like for women quite recently. http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/arti...not-do-in-1970

Unfortunately for a lot of men admitting that any of the above was true is admitting they are or have been previously a bit of a creep and that freaks a lot of cunts out, they can't do it.
Funny to watch sometimes a lad justify "banter" because he was a grab an arse in the pub type not so long ago.

[davepoke/her]

I’ve found immigrants from south and mid African countries seem to be very well equipped

Thank you

[eoghan104]

No ATR is free to air for anyone with a satellite dish or a basic Cable TV subscription. RTE will continue to have terrestrial rights for the meetings they cover.
UK Racing is a relatively expensive stand alone subscription that is not included in any of the SKY / BT EIR sports packages.
Only a small minority of pubs pay for UKRacing but just about every pub in UK and Ireland show ATR live. IMO being free to air in 99% of homes and pubs has been a huge benefit to the profile of Irish racing during the last decade. Hiding your premium Irish Racing brand away from the vast majority of viewers under a UK branded channel that is already covering 5 times as much lower quality racing seems to me to be utter madness.
There is still a lot to find out about the makeup this deal but it strikes me that if ATR are in trouble then HRI should be working with them to improve their revenue not running away for the sake of a quick buck.
If ATR fold as they could well do now, how much will UKR be offering next time around?
What will happen to the extra money, inflated pots for Grade 1 owners and a token luckpenny for stable staff and small yards is long odds on.

Maybe this is isn't real that its just some sort of a kite flying exercise as part of negotiations. If it is real allowing it leak on the eve of such a crucial weekend for the sport is ludicrous.

That is interesting. I assumed I was paying for ATR with my Sky sub.

Surely ATR can'y survive? The tracks they have outside Ireland are shite anyway! Mostly all weather no?

Ascot, Aintree, Sandown, Cheltenham, Haydock all on RUK I think?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Emmet]

I was thinking about this post this morning. People might find it odd that I take such a joyless attitude towards such trivialities as darts women etc. I have the opposite view - for me if you want do something to reduce the amount of rape/sexual harassment/more minor infringements then you need to change the culture we live in. All of those crimes takes place in a culture that to some degree enables them. As noted by Eoghan I think, rape is really an awful crime for everyone, even the alleged perpetrator as its so hard to prove (and the corollary of that is its almost impossible to disprove). I actually can't understand anyone who doesn't think this is something we should be trying to improve.

Credit to Robin for showing me this, but this is what Ireland was like for women quite recently. http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/arti...not-do-in-1970

The Rudy Giuliani approach? You're effectively going for the broken windows theory here.

Why do you think that will work in this case?

When it comes serious crimes and serious criminals, we are talking about extreme value modelling, not anywhere near the norms of society. There is something very naive in the idea that we can possibly get 100% of people to conform to any idea. There will always be outliers in any population.

The honest and difficult truth is that unless we control everything everyone does, we cannot prevent anything that a determined and able person wants to do.

I believe fostering and educating a culture of respect and understanding is far more useful than berating, bearing, and attempting to shame and drag people towards the ideals that we definitely both share.

[Strewelpeter]

I believe fostering and educating a culture of respect and understanding is far more useful than berating, bearing, and attempting to shame and drag people towards the ideals that we definitely both share.

But that is exactly what this is

[Emmet]

But that is exactly what this is

Only in the same way that telling your child they have to go to bed if they don't eat their vegetables is 'educating them'. Isn't a far better scenario discussing and actually educating them about the benefits of it, and them making the decision to do so?

There is agency involved in the second situation. An ultimatum in the first.

[Raoul Duke III]

Only in the same way that telling your child they have to go to bed if they don't eat their vegetables is 'educating them'. Isn't a far better scenario discussing and actually educating them about the benefits of it, and them making the decision to do so?

There is agency involved in the second situation. An ultimatum in the first.

lol, come on over and try that on with three actual kids after a full day at work. I dares ya!

[Emmet]

lol, come on over and try that on with three actual kids after a full day at work. I dares ya!

I wanted to use a trivial example so as not to enflame the discussion.

The carrot and the stick (liberty/agency vs authoritarian/ultimatum) is what it boils down to.

I'm definitely of the opinion that exerting agency to arrive at a solution is a far far more meaningful, beneficial and impactful than being forced into that same solution. I'd be interested in hearing someone argue against that opinion tbh.

(so many applicable puns).

[Strewelpeter]

I wanted to use a trivial example so as not to enflame the discussion.

The carrot and the stick (liberty/agency vs authoritarian/ultimatum) is what it boils down to.

I'm definitely of the opinion that exerting agency to arrive at a solution is a far far more meaningful, beneficial and impactful than being forced into that same solution. I'd be interested in hearing someone argue against that opinion tbh.

(so many applicable puns).

Its not been made illegal to have walk on girls has it?
Is this not agency being exerted by the market, realising that social mores have moved to the point where providing public grope fest opportunities is bad business practice?

Or is the problem just that society is waking up to what is acceptable and not acceptable, what is respectful and disrespectful because of campaigns led by feminist activists?

[Hectorjelly]

Yeah exactly. I don't think anyone has advocated making walk on girls illegal, what should happen is the organisations themselves realise it's not appropriate. Hence I think the Rudi Guillaini analogy is false.

[Emmet]

Its not been made illegal to have walk on girls has it?
Is this not agency being exerted by the market, realising that social mores have moved to the point where providing public grope fest opportunities is bad business practice?

Or is the problem just that society is waking up to what is acceptable and not acceptable, what is respectful and disrespectful because of campaigns led by feminist activists?

This is as bad as Jack's 'just asking questions' SP.

You have zero evidence of there having been any groping at F1. None. Any evidence of illegality? You know of any issues unreported or directly caused by them?

Public beaches have more women in skimpy outfits, they are every much the 'grope fest opportunities' that F1 had. Are we set for the next wave of Puritans campaigning for councils to close beaches to prevent any sort of opportunity? Wedge argument of course, but I do want to know how you differentiate between the two.

My exact point is that society is not waking up to anything. Society is choosing to shelter from the loudest. That is the path of least resistance here, and that is what has been taken. If anything this type of 'offence baiting' reduces the ability of society to actually develop any of its own thoughts on the matter, as it has effectively been commandeered by those who can take the most offence from a situation and declare it distasteful. You absolutely get the pretence of societal development (in both cases in my facile example the child eats the carrot), so from a direct results based appreciation only they have done so, but as above, do you not see that there is a difference between the individual development between the two situations?

If you believe that a company choosing to avoid shame and outrage is a company 'growing up' you have totally failed to grasp what I am talking about.

[Emmet]

Yeah exactly. I don't think anyone has advocated making walk on girls illegal, what should happen is the organisations themselves realise it's not appropriate. Hence I think the Rudi Guillaini analogy is false.

See my last line.

Companies are avoiding ignominy. That is it.

This ultimately (dystopia) results in a parallel 'pseudo-legal' system based on morals and values that are woefully subjective and open to the loudest and most offended to define, and nobody able to stop them.

Salem.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Hectorjelly]

That's ridiculous. How do you think companies have made decisions in the past? Do you think they chose to end child labour for altruistic reasons? I'm not saying the causes are similar, but the mechanism for change is. Also, how do society's ever make smart informed progress? Every change always ends up being messy, because of the number of actors involved. I get the feeling both of you don't really believe what you're arguing.

[Emmet]

Child abour was made illegal by legislature.

Perhaps, given you want to argue that it is not a legal effect you are arguing for, you should choose a better example?

[Raoul Duke III]

Can't say it as well as Emmet just put it, but there's definitely clear flaws in making decisions based on the new outrage culture rather than making smart informed societal progress. It all starts from a genuine place but it ends up in a society thats very nasty and very judgmental towards difference with a lot of innocent victims.

It's why we have Trump and Brexit.

Attitudes are being formed on the basis of outrage and emotion rather than on reasoned argument.

[Hectorjelly]

Child abour was made illegal by legislature.

Perhaps, given you want to argue that it is not a legal effect you are arguing for, you should choose a better example?

It was made illegal having already fallen dramatically for a number of reasons.

[Hectorjelly]

How do you think decision's were made in the past?

On a more pressing issue, how do we feel about a large bet on the Eagles to win?