Originally posted by Hectorjelly
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Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.
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Originally posted by Theresa View PostBut you gave your example of a child interpreting it negatively?
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostPosts like this give rise to my contempt.
Iago posted an informed and reasoned response to something you said. You ignored the merits of his post and carried on with your agenda. How does that feel? To have someone ignore what you have said and pick up on something inane?
I don't really believe what i said in my last post but you are posting narrow minded divisive tripe. It is literally the reason Trump got elected and literally the reason abortion (within reason) may not get passed in this country. Well played.
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostWhat's extreme about it? Darts and F1, too pretty backwards, males dominated sports have just announced they are going to stop using them. Clearly this is because they feel that's in line with what most people think, so it really isn't an extreme opinion.
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostYes, I suppose he had a good point in that its easy to ascribe our own thinking onto childrens, but that said I don't think its worth my energy looking up studies to show the importance of gender in role models.
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostIts a subtle difference, but I don't believe that. The job shouldn't exist rather than women being blocked from choosing it.
Should male model also not exsist
What other jobs should not exist under this flag of what I had presumed to be subtle trolling.
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I don't disagree with women not being at these events, and if they just weren't there without me having heard of it, I really doubt I would even have noticed. It seems to me though that these decisions are taken by the same people/organisations who were happy to have these women do the whole dolly bird thing not that long ago, so it seems more of a reaction to pressure than anything.
I don't know how to fix the world and the gender prejudices/stereotypes that exist, but this seems like a token thing rather than something borne out of genuine desire for change. Will the Tour de France do similar? Probably not because they are French, but those girls aren't dressed in a provocative manner, but in terms of the 'men winning, girls looking nice' terms it is up there too.
I don't know really, about any of it.
SPOILER
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HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.
I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.
I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostHJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.
I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.
I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.
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Originally posted by PSV58 View PostDo they not already live in a world where they can aspire to be doctors and professionals or artists? We’ve been living in that world for quite some time????
The filthy swine. Always knew there was something dodgy about that fella."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostHJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.
I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.
I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.
As was hinted at before, feminism appears to be making women less liberated rather than more liberated. You can't wear this, you can't work as that.
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostHJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.
I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.
I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.
Who are you to say that your kids can't be one of those models if they want to? Would prefer if they didn't? Sure. Can't? That's not your decision imo.
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Originally posted by PSV58 View PostDo they not already live in a world where they can aspire to be doctors and professionals or artists? We’ve been living in that world for quite some time????
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists and find the path to that and their experience when they get there the same as if they were male.
That's not currently the case.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostI'll phrase it this way.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists and find the path to that and their experience when they get there the same as if they were male.
That's not currently the case.
But I’d be pretty much aligned with Jordan Peterson re the gender pay gap. Equal pay for equal work I’m on board but hopefully gender studies graduates are still getting paid a pittance in 20 Years
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Originally posted by 5starpool View PostAdmirable on the face of it, but removing the option of doing something is never that progressive imo. Women aren't expected to be housewives and give up careers now when they have children, but some want to and choose to.
Who are you to say that your kids can't be one of those models if they want to? Would prefer if they didn't? Sure. Can't? That's not your decision imo.
It takes a generation to change societal norms, and it starts with calling out stuff like this. It's similar to how casual racism was acceptable in the 70s, on TV, in movies etc but slowly got eradicated. It's not gone for sure, but it's not acceptable generally.
There were similar protestations then, but the shift away from it was correct, and progressive.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by jack90210 View PostWhat if they don't want to do what you designate as acceptable? Have you ever considered some women (and some men) enjoy been desired, envied etc. why shouldn't they? Who are we to judge. The women whose jobs have been taken would have loved the lifestyle and opportunities the job presented them.
As was hinted at before, feminism appears to be making women less liberated rather than more liberated. You can't wear this, you can't work as that.
Oh wait.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostI'll phrase it this way.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists and find the path to that and their experience when they get there the same as if they were male.
That's not currently the case.
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Originally posted by The Istanbul View PostI call horseshit on this Laz: women today have the same breadth of choices open to them as men. To think differently reflects on you not the reality-you can encourage/rear your girls to be anything they want to be. I have two and they've always thought they could rule the world from a young age (a bit like their mother ).
My argument is about society as a whole though, and how societal pressures are different for boys and girls.
Girls are subtely discouraged from certain paths, industry, politics, finance etc, from a young age, not because of ability but because we still live in a patriarchal society. Every little small step like repealing the 8th, removing dolly birds from lout sports etc helps to move society progressively away from that, and helps to remove the subtle discouragement.
Also, while women may have the same choices, career wise, they certainly don't have the same experiences once they get there.Last edited by Lazare; 01-02-18, 01:12.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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I think most of us can agree we can make the world better for women and minorities and work towards giving everyone an equal shot at succeeding and moving up the ladder into sought after positions.
I can understand the removing of the models/cheerleaders from the darts/football etc on one hand but then wonder if it's the best way to stop it?
They get some ridiculously abusive things said to them and I'm all for stamping it out but surely you have to change how the people who abuse them think and not just remove one of the times they can abuse someone.
I'm just wondering what the end game is, is it to remove sex appeal from everything we watch and consume?Last edited by Charlie Sheen; 01-02-18, 01:01.
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Originally posted by 5starpool View PostAdmirable on the face of it, but removing the option of doing something is never that progressive imo. .
Child labour
Racial abuse
Child abuse
Polluting rivers
Violence
Incitement to violence
etc etc
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostHJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.
I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.
I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.
I have a daughter and women can be whatever the hell they want to be. That ship has sailed and sailed a long time ago. The great fucking evil that is this alleged patriarchal society is utter nonsense. Women have the upper hand in many, many different ways, some of which I sincerely hope you as a man never have to endure and like everyone, in the broad sense of things want equality, which for the vast % they have, apart from situations that are advantageous to them. Just like the rest of the world. Which is fair enough.Last edited by Closed_Account; 01-02-18, 03:21.
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostThis isn't an argument to ban models, female or otherwise.
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Originally posted by Keane View PostThanks very much. That's not totally horrific as a jumping off point anyway. I think five would be the number needed in this case too.
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostYes, I suppose he had a good point in that its easy to ascribe our own thinking onto childrens, but that said I don't think its worth my energy looking up studies to show the importance of gender in role models.
Originally posted by Lazare View PostHJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.
I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.
So, even in an near-utopian future, either unemployment is higher for women, or we create/maintain the idea that certain roles are more suited for women.
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostThis isn't an argument to ban models, female or otherwise.
I didn't even realize where a thing until they were banned. So maybe I'm missing something in that regard.
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Originally posted by jack90210 View PostIf you are referring to abortion, abortions isn’t liberal as it gives one person a choice at the expense of another.
Or suggesting the father doesn't have a choice or say in the matter.
Both are wrong obviously, just wondering what the angle is today.
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Originally posted by Mellor View PostAre you referring to the undeveloped embryo as a person.
Or suggesting the father doesn't have a choice or say in the matter.
Both are wrong obviously, just wondering what the angle is today.
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Jack, do you realise that liberal does not mean leftist? When American republicans use Liberal as a slur they quite simply mean 'anyone that is not a republican'. Liberal values are not collectivist leftist values. The use of Liberal when you are talking about explicitly illiberal people is very odd.
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostJack already made this point. Anytime you make a point Jack would agree with you might want to have a think about it.
Child labour
Racial abuse
Child abuse
Polluting rivers
Violence
Incitement to violence
etc etc
Just because Jack thinks something doesn't automatically make it wrong, even if I do disagree with him on a lot of things.
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostHJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.
I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.
I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.
I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.
"I heard you can make a fortune working a few evenings at the White Palace, now that would be a decent way to make some €€€"
Now, the White Palace is a Gentlemans Club in St Julian's. both men and woman can go into this club, despite the name. She wants to be one of the girls who would be scantily clad and dancing.
How do I feel about it? I don't know. But I DO KNOW, it is her choice, and if she doesn't feel she is lowering herself to make some money, then fair play to her. She said she would rather that than working in Burger King frying pattys to make a pittance.
She had been discussing these things with her female friends, and this was the logic. Less hours for much more money and not coming home stinking of fat.
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Originally posted by Emmet View PostJack, do you realise that liberal does not mean leftist? When American republicans use Liberal as a slur they quite simply mean 'anyone that is not a republican'. Liberal values are not collectivist leftist values. The use of Liberal when you are talking about explicitly illiberal people is very odd."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Mellor View PostOut of curiosity, what's the reason for these? Peace of mind of regulatory?
The place we are looking at doesn't have them so I'm trying to figure out just how much they cost. From a resale pov as much as anything.
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Originally posted by Mike Bullocks View PostThe 1950s rang and have asked us to kindly return Lazare.
Bigger fish to fry for our kids (male and female) than this tired old argument Cant see the woods for the trees. .I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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HJ, this would be a fairly liberal/lefty forum on the whole correct? The vast majority disagree with you completely on the above topic where you are deciding what way women should act and think.
Do you ever for a second look at the arguments presented to you? Ever wonder if maybe you might be wrong?
It just seems that once you have decided on something then there is no moving and everyone else is an idiot. Makes you come across as an arrogant prick.
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Originally posted by eoghan104 View PostHJ, this would be a fairly liberal/lefty forum on the whole correct? The vast majority disagree with you completely on the above topic where you are deciding what way women should act and think.
Do you ever for a second look at the arguments presented to you? Ever wonder if maybe you might be wrong?
It just seems that once you have decided on something then there is no moving and everyone else is an idiot. Makes you come across as an arrogant prick.
Conor I don't feel threatened. Maybe if I were younger I might be. Now its all about the next generation for me.
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This argument could easily be transposed back a few decades with black minstrels and Gollywog toys substituted for dolly birds.
You had people like Jack arguing about the denial of employment opportunities for the poor negroes. You had rational people like Dom arguing that it's all just harmless fun with nobody getting hurt. You had people who feel threatened when the mirror is put up to them and lash out calling the opponents of it hysterical.
Then you have people like Eoghan who call the lone wolf wrong because his opinion is a minority opinion.
Progressive societal changes always follow this path.
You can go back decades further and transpose it to carnival freak shows, women's suffrage, black emancipation etc etcI hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by MrsFlushdraw View Post
How do I feel about it? I don't know. But I DO KNOW, it is her choice, and if she doesn't feel she is lowering herself to make some money, then fair play to her. She said she would rather that than working in Burger King frying pattys to make a pittance.
She had been discussing these things with her female friends, and this was the logic. Less hours for much more money and not coming home stinking of fat.
Her sky-ness
© 5starpool
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostThis argument could easily be transposed back a few decades with black minstrels and Gollywog toys substituted for dolly birds.
The Black minstrels were white people imitating black people in order to mock them. That was inherently racist.
Women who are proud of their looks getting well paid to show them off is not hurting or offending anyone.
Are you a prude? Is sex something that should be hidden and shunned?
Basically I have a problem with people like you and HJ trying to define how people should feel. If women want to be models (and there is no distinction here, the Pit Girls/Darts girls are models.) then what gives you the right to decide it is wrong?
I assume you are pro-choice? Women should be able to choose what they do with their bodies? Why is this different?
It is baffling.
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Originally posted by MrsFlushdraw View PostOur eldest who just turned 17 is planning to go into Medicine, cardiology to be exact. She knows she might have to get a wee job while she studied, what she said to me was...
"I heard you can make a fortune working a few evenings at the White Palace, now that would be a decent way to make some €€€"
Now, the White Palace is a Gentlemans Club in St Julian's. both men and woman can go into this club, despite the name. She wants to be one of the girls who would be scantily clad and dancing.
How do I feel about it? I don't know. But I DO KNOW, it is her choice, and if she doesn't feel she is lowering herself to make some money, then fair play to her. She said she would rather that than working in Burger King frying pattys to make a pittance.
She had been discussing these things with her female friends, and this was the logic. Less hours for much more money and not coming home stinking of fat.
SPOILER
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Originally posted by SatNav View Post
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