Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[eamonhonda]

Hi kayroo, was reading about the Jonty Bravery case on BBC and that made me think of this arguement. There can be situations you can be 100% sure? I laude the the sentiment but there can be situations where we can be 100% sure, think Hitler, ted Bundy, Andrei Chikatilo, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc...

Aye no mental issues among those..

[pokerhand]

Aye no mental issues among those..

That is irrelevant to the point about being certain whom committed the crime.

[Goodluck2me]

That is irrelevant to the point about being certain whom committed the crime.

I think the point is that the “guilty act” you can be certain of, but not the guilty mind. You can see someone shoot another, you can’t be certain of the circumstances. Are your family held in a tiger hostage, are you mentally unfit, was it supposed to be a blank cartridge to scare that was swapped I.e. magic trick gone wrong, etc etc.

[eamonhonda]

That is irrelevant to the point about being certain whom committed the crime.

It was kayroos point around guilt, not who committed the crime. There's plenty of certainty around who committed

[Solksjaer!]

If Lee Harvey Oswald had not been murdered he'd have been executed . An innocent man right.
Ah the 60s . Donald would have been shot a few times by now and Leo would be in jail . Not so long ago.

[Kayroo]

That is irrelevant to the point about being certain whom committed the crime.

In the post of mine that you quoted I make the very clear point that for crimes of the sort that could conceivably attract the death penalty you must have both a guilty act and a guilty mind (or what lawyers call actus reus and mens rea, respectively).

In all of the examples you chose, save for Hitler, the individuals were serial killers. As eamonhonda said, there was likely serious mental issues with each of them. Dahmer in particular comes to mind.

Hitler is the ultimate outlier and suggesting we should reorganise our criminal justice system to accommodate for a war criminal undermines your own argument.

But the fundamental argument - that the risk of being wrong vastly outweighs any conceivable benefit of being right - is in no way addressed by the idea there are some people we can be sure about.

[Raoul Duke III]

It's like watching a tiger casually bat around a mouse

[pokerhand]

In the post of mine that you quoted I make the very clear point that for crimes of the sort that could conceivably attract the death penalty you must have both a guilty act and a guilty mind (or what lawyers call actus reus and mens rea, respectively).

In all of the examples you chose, save for Hitler, the individuals were serial killers. As eamonhonda said, there was likely serious mental issues with each of them. Dahmer in particular comes to mind.

Hitler is the ultimate outlier and suggesting we should reorganise our criminal justice system to accommodate for a war criminal undermines your own argument.

But the fundamental argument - that the risk of being wrong vastly outweighs any conceivable benefit of being right - is in no way addressed by the idea there are some people we can be sure about.

Of course there would be risk, which is why the burden of proof has to be the highest. But just because there is a risk of being wrong doesn't mean there aren't situations where capital punishment isn't justified.

I am not saying I am in favour of the death penalty or not, but regardless of that, you have to allow there are situations (very extreme) where it is justified.

Similar to abortion, nobody saying they are in favour of it, but recognised there are extreme situations where it may be necessary.

[eamonhonda]

But just because there is a risk of being wrong doesn't mean there aren't situations where capital punishment isn't justified.

Most people who disagree with death penalty do so because they disagree with the above. Risk of being wrong means it can never be justified to those.

Also abortion is a daft comparison

[Guest]

Similar to abortion, nobody saying they are in favour of it, but recognised there are extreme situations where it may be necessary.

Hmmmm, I think this a false equivalence.

I completely understand Kayroo's argument in regards to the proof of mind and proof of the act but even that feels unnecessary to me to make the case.

I'm just in the camp that there is no moral justification for it irregardless of the ability to prove what is deemed a prerequisite.

[DeadParrot]

Of course there would be risk, which is why the burden of proof has to be the highest. But just because there is a risk of being wrong doesn't mean there aren't situations where capital punishment isn't justified.

I am not saying I am in favour of the death penalty or not, but regardless of that, you have to allow there are situations (very extreme) where it is justified.

Similar to abortion, nobody saying they are in favour of it, but recognised there are extreme situations where it may be necessary.

Well no.
There are a couple of factors in play
first is acceptance level,
why fall on the line that there are situations where capital punishment is justifiable and that the risk of being wrong is acceptable based on burden of proof.
why not the opposite where the death penalty is unconscionable because the burden of proof is never absolute?
That is a cultural morality change that is quite difficult to make and subsequently unmake once the first time it's wrong invariably throws the whole concept up again.
Then the conversation is about limiting risk rather than justification.
The second is precedent. Once precedence has been established the bar for justification will naturally lower. I'm not talking about shoplifting or petty crime but rape, child abuse, serious assault, attempted murder etc.
Once you allow the emotional horror of a crime dictate the punishment threshold, that the possibility of permanent judgement is on the cards, it will of course be utilized.
Thirdly is is effectiveness. How effective is capital punishment at lowering crime rates?
Asnwer: Bar the possibility of the perpetrator re offending, all studies I've ever read or seen determines it has no effect on rate of crime or murder.

In short, it's a punishment dictated by outrage. It has no effect other than sating a desire of blood for blood and a slippery slope for any culture to take on.

I'm sure others will state the case better than I

[gorrrr72]

Not sure whether to complimented or disturbed that one of your choices is my Ma

My Gran started in HB about 7-8 years later so wouldn't be in the pic. My mum and auntie's all worked there over the years and I worked on a milk round for a short while. Lot of history between HB, Hughes Dairy - Premier Dairies and the families all around Loretto, Nutgrove, Holylands, Churchtown etc.

[Guest]

Eoghan harris did a nice ad for Sinn Fein on Ivan Yates show yesterday. Think he mentioned Hitler at least 8 times the guy is deranged

[ArmaniJeans]

just got mine!! C'mon Sarries!

you'll be cheering sarries as well no?

In a surprising turn of events, it seems Saracens may have another tiresome bureaucratic incident which threatens their place in the competition.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/07/saracens-champions-cup-expulsion-ineligible-player-misconduct-hearing-rugby-union

[Hectorjelly]

De Valera had several IRA members executed during the second world war.

[shrapnel]

In a surprising turn of events, it seems Saracens may have another tiresome bureaucratic incident which threatens their place in the competition.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ng-rugby-union

I've been reading up on that all day also. Can't imagine anymore than a fine and a rap on the fingers at this stage. the whole QFs would have to be rejigged and tick sales have already started. Tough to DQ them now

[Raoul Duke III]

I've been reading up on that all day also. Can't imagine anymore than a fine and a rap on the fingers at this stage. the whole QFs would have to be rejigged and tick sales have already started. Tough to DQ them now

let them play!

Leinster will absolutely murder them and I want their humiliation to be on the pitch.

[shrapnel]

let them play!

Leinster will absolutely murder them and I want their humiliation to be on the pitch.

this is gonna be fun!!!

[Raoul Duke III]

this is gonna be fun!!!

I agree.

The biggest cheats in rugby history getting played off the pitch in front of 50,000. It'll be great.

[Emmet]

let them play!

Leinster will absolutely murder them and I want their humiliation to be on the pitch.

Club is a shambles, team are absolutely not....

[Emmet]

My Gran started in HB about 7-8 years later so wouldn't be in the pic. My mum and auntie's all worked there over the years and I worked on a milk round for a short while. Lot of history between HB, Hughes Dairy - Premier Dairies and the families all around Loretto, Nutgrove, Holylands, Churchtown etc.

Did everyone's Ma work in HB? Mine certainly did too.

[Kayroo]

Of course there would be risk, which is why the burden of proof has to be the highest.

This doesn't mean anything. "The burden of proof has to be the highest" is one of those things that sounds good until you spend any time thinking about it whatsoever. Unless you mean the current highest burden of proof, which is beyond a reasonable doubt.

Under that version of events the following people would have been killed:

The Birmingham Six
The Guildford Four
The Maguire Seven
Stefan Kiszko
Eddie Gilfoyle

Just to name a few...

Every single one of these was convicted on the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. Sure, what does it matter that we might kill all these innocent people if we get the blood lust revenge of murdering the right ones now and then?

[Kayroo]

Hmmmm, I think this a false equivalence.

I completely understand Kayroo's argument in regards to the proof of mind and proof of the act but even that feels unnecessary to me to make the case.

I'm just in the camp that there is no moral justification for it irregardless of the ability to prove what is deemed a prerequisite.

I agree there's no moral justification for it. None. I am just meeting the argument I am presented with. It's a barbaric act of bloodlust and vengeance and has no place in a civilised criminal justice system. It is the remit of barbarism and we should have no truck with it.

[Raoul Duke III]

Club is a shambles, team are absolutely not....

It will be a massacre.

[nicnicnic]

Thoughts on Waterford Nic? Cullinane, Butler, Cummins and between Marc o Cathasaigh and Pratt for the last?

I wouldn't have a big opinion on it.

The 2/5 PP are Matt Shanahan (Ind) seems wrong, probably under the assumption he'll take the Halligan independent vote. I can see a lot of that vote just going straight to Cullinane and 2nd preference being widely spread.

[shrapnel]

doc for RD3: where's my Roy Cohn?

i'd never heard of him but no doubt you are well acquainted with the monster. Fascinating doc on this evil piece of shit lawyer. Doc in itself doesn't breakdown barriers but well put together nonetheless.

[pokerhand]

I agree there's no moral justification for it. None. I am just meeting the argument I am presented with. It's a barbaric act of bloodlust and vengeance and has no place in a civilised criminal justice system. It is the remit of barbarism and we should have no truck with it.

Was just thinking about this in an abstract kind of view and it's interesting, I was just thinking more along the lines of would there be a moral justification for killing in general, where as you you are saying no from criminal justice system pov ie capital punishment.

Would its be really barbaric for a father to kill a serial pedophile? Is there no moral justification for a woman to kill the partner that has systematically abused her for years, or like the case with the three Russian sisters killing their father because they couldn't see any way out and the authorities didn't help.

[pokerhand]

Funny, I feel a lot more sympathy for Colonel Jessup after today

[Guest]

Turbo cringe. Somebody (or possibly a whole team of people) got paid to make this

[Raoul Duke III]

doc for RD3: where's my Roy Cohn?

i'd never heard of him but no doubt you are well acquainted with the monster. Fascinating doc on this evil piece of shit lawyer. Doc in itself doesn't breakdown barriers but well put together nonetheless.

Hero to a certain Donald J Trump

[Kayroo]

Was just thinking about this in an abstract kind of view and it's interesting, I was just thinking more along the lines of would there be a moral justification for killing in general, where as you you are saying no from criminal justice system pov ie capital punishment.

Would its be really barbaric for a father to kill a serial pedophile? Is there no moral justification for a woman to kill the partner that has systematically abused her for years, or like the case with the three Russian sisters killing their father because they couldn't see any way out and the authorities didn't help.

You’re conflating a moral justification for an individual acting in response to an act perpetrated against them or those close to them and the morality of the state killing people for vengeance. It’s not the same thing.

It’s something I’ve grappled with a lot to be honest, even recently. And I hope my views have become more nuanced. But I don’t want to discuss the morality of violence generally. It’s capital punishment we are discussing and so far you haven’t made a single coherent argument in favor of it

[ComradeCollie]

Philip Scofield on the market .

These cunts, who either didn't have the balls or the self awareness to 'come out' in the 1980s, can fuck right off back into their closet as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest]

Galfond down another 13 buyins today...€750k overall!

[ComradeCollie]

My Gran started in HB about 7-8 years later so wouldn't be in the pic. My mum and auntie's all worked there over the years and I worked on a milk round for a short while. Lot of history between HB, Hughes Dairy - Premier Dairies and the families all around Loretto, Nutgrove, Holylands, Churchtown etc.

Kinloughs?

[Solksjaer!]

These cunts, who either didn't have the balls or the self awareness to 'come out' in the 1980s, can fuck right off back into their closet as far as I'm concerned.

I've been castigated for being less than complimentary about his bravery .

[RichieM]

'Confirmed bachelor' was always the codeword in our family.

My dad had a brother who didn’t marry because he stayed to mind the family farm. They all knew that sitting on a big chunk of good farmland didn’t exactly make him ineligible but ....

[ComradeCollie]

I've been castigated for being less than complimentary about his bravery .

Ah, I left it a few hours just to make sure I was comfortable about being so politically incorrect. I'm still pissed about the year I spent as USI's Gay and Lesbian Rights Officer, just because no-one else at the time was 'out' enough to do it.

[Lazare]

These cunts, who either didn't have the balls or the self awareness to 'come out' in the 1980s, can fuck right off back into their closet as far as I'm concerned.

Wow. Fucking love this.

[pokerhand]

You’re conflating a moral justification for an individual acting in response to an act perpetrated against them or those close to them and the morality of the state killing people for vengeance. It’s not the same thing.

It’s something I’ve grappled with a lot to be honest, even recently. And I hope my views have become more nuanced. But I don’t want to discuss the morality of violence generally. It’s capital punishment we are discussing and so far you haven’t made a single coherent argument in favor of it

I never said I was in favour of it. I simply asked were there no circumstances under which capital punishment is justified. I don't really see much different between the individual carrying out the deed v the state.


Obviously you are entitled whatever view you like on it, but I just find it odd that someone can be so absolutely certain that there is no situation whatsoever whereby capital punishment is not justified.

I asked myself, how do I feel about capital punishment for Hitler, pedophiles, serial killers, etc... and I would struggle to find a reason not to be in favour of capital punishment under certain circumstances. Sometimes you just have to kill the rabid dog...

[Lazare]

I asked myself, how do I feel about capital punishment for Hitler, pedophiles, serial killers, etc... and I would struggle to find a reason not to be in favour of capital punishment under certain circumstances. Sometimes you just have to kill the rabid dog...

Why would you not favour a life long removal of freedom? I'm sure the perpetrator would choose death over that, in most cases.

Bloodlust?

Biblical ideas of revenge?

[eamonhonda]

I'm sure the perpetrator would choose death over that, in most cases

Id go so far as say death over a life inside would incentivise some surely? If in a state of done with the world anyhow

[ComradeCollie]

The dead brother's Conformation pic from 1969. Is it just me, or is there an unusual amount of stickie-out ears present.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Lazare]

Haha yeah, lots of sticky out ears.

I had real sticky out ones as a kid. Kinda grew into them or something. Got some abuse over it.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[ComradeCollie]

Haha yeah, lots of sticky out ears.

I had real sticky out ones as a kid. Kinda grew into them or something. Got some abuse over it.

Think my mother taped them back for the later editions. Suppose you learn some tricks with 8 sprogs

[ComradeCollie]

Noticed in the Irish childminders that the kids stay in when over in Ireland, that Irish kids look really notable, mainly due to the big circle faces. You are probably all used to it, but those circle faces are objectively hilarious when you aren't used to it.

I have no idea what you are saying.

[Solksjaer!]

Noticed in the Irish childminders that the kids stay in when over in Ireland, that Irish kids look really notable, mainly due to the big circle faces. You are probably all used to it, but those circle faces are objectively hilarious when you aren't used to it.

My circle face has always been troubled by a French nose. French noses are more hilarious than circle faces . You probably don't notice it.

[Solksjaer!]

Think my mother taped them back for the later editions. Suppose you learn some tricks with 8 sprogs

Now you say this . Fk you Collie. I was on the taped ears and multiple calfs lick society since 1987 . No-one else

[Raoul Duke III]

Four 11-year old boys in the house for a sleepover party. Mrs Duke wisely gone to the pub. They are busy calling each other 'gay' every time I stick my head in.
Where is Comrade Collie when you need him?

[Kayroo]

I never said I was in favour of it. I simply asked were there no circumstances under which capital punishment is justified. I don't really see much different between the individual carrying out the deed v the state.


Obviously you are entitled whatever view you like on it, but I just find it odd that someone can be so absolutely certain that there is no situation whatsoever whereby capital punishment is not justified.

I asked myself, how do I feel about capital punishment for Hitler, pedophiles, serial killers, etc... and I would struggle to find a reason not to be in favour of capital punishment under certain circumstances. Sometimes you just have to kill the rabid dog...

You’re not making an argument in favor of it at all. Just you’d like to see rapists and murderers die. That’s not a reason to risk killing innocent people. Why are you so happy to give the state the power to kill people?

[Solksjaer!]

Coincidentally I was reading this today on a whywekneel rant by an American friend.

Fucking harrowing stuff.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney

[DeadParrot]

I've seen insurance being mentioned a few times as part of government failings.
I'm not entirely sure I know what they are talking about?

Those insurance bastards.

https://m.independent.ie/business/fbd-accused-of-ripping-off-customers-as-it-expects-profits-to-double-38932888.html

One or two pertinent lines in that article that are casually tossed out

[Raoul Duke III]

Those insurance bastards.

https://m.independent.ie/business/fbd-accused-of-ripping-off-customers-as-it-expects-profits-to-double-38932888.html

One or two pertinent lines in that article that are casually tossed out

It's all Kayroo's fault:

He said a recent Central Bank report found that, on personal injuries claims below €100,000, legal costs amount to an average of 63pc of the damages awarded.

[Wombatman]

No fan of the Shinners but there has been a shameful lack of balance in the media coverage around FF, FG and SF.

I'd say if someone set off an A.I. bot, to examine the tone coverage, the results would be shocking.

It's not like you would have to dig deep to come up with uber negative stories about FF and FG.

Why not feature, and follow u,p those stories about grizzly murders, from years ago at the time they happened? The muck raking has clearly gone into overdrive.

The Indo really went for it today..........

"SF tight-lipped over probe of WhatsApp group that said IRA victims are 'wasters'"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/sf-tight-lipped-over-probe-of-whatsapp-group-that-said-ira-victims-are-wasters-38934932.html

"It took an election to finally get an apology from Sinn Féin - not simple human decency"

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/it-took-an-election-to-finally-get-an-apology-from-sinn-fein-not-simple-human-decency-38931589.html

"Shadowy figures will never forgive brave mother for taking them on"

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/shadowy-figures-will-never-forgive-brave-mother-for-taking-them-on-38934935.html

Shadowy figures....... will ya give it a rest FFS.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[DeadParrot]

What I'm frankly amazed at is that the narrative is fuck FG, all hail SF.
Or the shinners are the devil and will ruin the country.
All the while Michael Martin gorms around saying and doing nothing and will sleepwalk in the top job.
And no one fucking cares.

[pokerhand]

You’re not making an argument in favor of it at all. Just you’d like to see rapists and murderers die. That’s not a reason to risk killing innocent people. Why are you so happy to give the state the power to kill people?

Because somebody got to do it.

You weep for Santiago...

In all seriousness though, the risk of being wrong is not the point, the point is why would you care if the person live or dies, if it can be proven that they committed the crime to the highest standard that you deem necessary to ensure a mistake is not made.

[Wombatman]

I mean this is the home page of the Indo GE 2020 section right now. Shameless and more than a little worrying TBH.

[Raoul Duke III]

Because somebody got to do it.

You weep for Santiago...

In all seriousness though, the risk of being wrong is not the point, the point is why would you care if the person live or dies, if it can be proven that they committed the crime to the highest standard that you deem necessary to ensure a mistake is not made.

What Murdrum said. No civilised state should execute people, it is morally reprehensible and no amount of 'what about?' (Hitler, Pol Pot, insert villain of your own choice) changes that.