Originally posted by pokerhand
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostThat is irrelevant to the point about being certain whom committed the crime.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostThat is irrelevant to the point about being certain whom committed the crime.
In all of the examples you chose, save for Hitler, the individuals were serial killers. As eamonhonda said, there was likely serious mental issues with each of them. Dahmer in particular comes to mind.
Hitler is the ultimate outlier and suggesting we should reorganise our criminal justice system to accommodate for a war criminal undermines your own argument.
But the fundamental argument - that the risk of being wrong vastly outweighs any conceivable benefit of being right - is in no way addressed by the idea there are some people we can be sure about.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostIn the post of mine that you quoted I make the very clear point that for crimes of the sort that could conceivably attract the death penalty you must have both a guilty act and a guilty mind (or what lawyers call actus reus and mens rea, respectively).
In all of the examples you chose, save for Hitler, the individuals were serial killers. As eamonhonda said, there was likely serious mental issues with each of them. Dahmer in particular comes to mind.
Hitler is the ultimate outlier and suggesting we should reorganise our criminal justice system to accommodate for a war criminal undermines your own argument.
But the fundamental argument - that the risk of being wrong vastly outweighs any conceivable benefit of being right - is in no way addressed by the idea there are some people we can be sure about.
I am not saying I am in favour of the death penalty or not, but regardless of that, you have to allow there are situations (very extreme) where it is justified.
Similar to abortion, nobody saying they are in favour of it, but recognised there are extreme situations where it may be necessary.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostBut just because there is a risk of being wrong doesn't mean there aren't situations where capital punishment isn't justified.
Also abortion is a daft comparisonairport, lol
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Originally posted by pokerhand View Post
Similar to abortion, nobody saying they are in favour of it, but recognised there are extreme situations where it may be necessary.
I completely understand Kayroo's argument in regards to the proof of mind and proof of the act but even that feels unnecessary to me to make the case.
I'm just in the camp that there is no moral justification for it irregardless of the ability to prove what is deemed a prerequisite.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostOf course there would be risk, which is why the burden of proof has to be the highest. But just because there is a risk of being wrong doesn't mean there aren't situations where capital punishment isn't justified.
I am not saying I am in favour of the death penalty or not, but regardless of that, you have to allow there are situations (very extreme) where it is justified.
Similar to abortion, nobody saying they are in favour of it, but recognised there are extreme situations where it may be necessary.
There are a couple of factors in play
first is acceptance level,
why fall on the line that there are situations where capital punishment is justifiable and that the risk of being wrong is acceptable based on burden of proof.
why not the opposite where the death penalty is unconscionable because the burden of proof is never absolute?
That is a cultural morality change that is quite difficult to make and subsequently unmake once the first time it's wrong invariably throws the whole concept up again.
Then the conversation is about limiting risk rather than justification.
The second is precedent. Once precedence has been established the bar for justification will naturally lower. I'm not talking about shoplifting or petty crime but rape, child abuse, serious assault, attempted murder etc.
Once you allow the emotional horror of a crime dictate the punishment threshold, that the possibility of permanent judgement is on the cards, it will of course be utilized.
Thirdly is is effectiveness. How effective is capital punishment at lowering crime rates?
Asnwer: Bar the possibility of the perpetrator re offending, all studies I've ever read or seen determines it has no effect on rate of crime or murder.
In short, it's a punishment dictated by outrage. It has no effect other than sating a desire of blood for blood and a slippery slope for any culture to take on.
I'm sure others will state the case better than IPeople say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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Originally posted by ComradeCollie View PostNot sure whether to complimented or disturbed that one of your choices is my Ma
My Gran started in HB about 7-8 years later so wouldn't be in the pic. My mum and auntie's all worked there over the years and I worked on a milk round for a short while. Lot of history between HB, Hughes Dairy - Premier Dairies and the families all around Loretto, Nutgrove, Holylands, Churchtown etc.
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Eoghan harris did a nice ad for Sinn Fein on Ivan Yates show yesterday. Think he mentioned Hitler at least 8 times the guy is deranged
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Originally posted by shrapnel View Postjust got mine!! C'mon Sarries!
you'll be cheering sarries as well no?
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Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View PostIn a surprising turn of events, it seems Saracens may have another tiresome bureaucratic incident which threatens their place in the competition.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ng-rugby-union
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Originally posted by shrapnel View PostI've been reading up on that all day also. Can't imagine anymore than a fine and a rap on the fingers at this stage. the whole QFs would have to be rejigged and tick sales have already started. Tough to DQ them now
Leinster will absolutely murder them and I want their humiliation to be on the pitch."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by gorrrr72 View PostMy Gran started in HB about 7-8 years later so wouldn't be in the pic. My mum and auntie's all worked there over the years and I worked on a milk round for a short while. Lot of history between HB, Hughes Dairy - Premier Dairies and the families all around Loretto, Nutgrove, Holylands, Churchtown etc.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostOf course there would be risk, which is why the burden of proof has to be the highest.
Under that version of events the following people would have been killed:
The Birmingham Six
The Guildford Four
The Maguire Seven
Stefan Kiszko
Eddie Gilfoyle
Just to name a few...
Every single one of these was convicted on the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. Sure, what does it matter that we might kill all these innocent people if we get the blood lust revenge of murdering the right ones now and then?You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Murdrum View PostHmmmm, I think this a false equivalence.
I completely understand Kayroo's argument in regards to the proof of mind and proof of the act but even that feels unnecessary to me to make the case.
I'm just in the camp that there is no moral justification for it irregardless of the ability to prove what is deemed a prerequisite.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Murdrum View PostThoughts on Waterford Nic? Cullinane, Butler, Cummins and between Marc o Cathasaigh and Pratt for the last?
The 2/5 PP are Matt Shanahan (Ind) seems wrong, probably under the assumption he'll take the Halligan independent vote. I can see a lot of that vote just going straight to Cullinane and 2nd preference being widely spread.
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doc for RD3: where's my Roy Cohn?
i'd never heard of him but no doubt you are well acquainted with the monster. Fascinating doc on this evil piece of shit lawyer. Doc in itself doesn't breakdown barriers but well put together nonetheless.
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostI agree there's no moral justification for it. None. I am just meeting the argument I am presented with. It's a barbaric act of bloodlust and vengeance and has no place in a civilised criminal justice system. It is the remit of barbarism and we should have no truck with it.
Would its be really barbaric for a father to kill a serial pedophile? Is there no moral justification for a woman to kill the partner that has systematically abused her for years, or like the case with the three Russian sisters killing their father because they couldn't see any way out and the authorities didn't help.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by shrapnel View Postdoc for RD3: where's my Roy Cohn?
i'd never heard of him but no doubt you are well acquainted with the monster. Fascinating doc on this evil piece of shit lawyer. Doc in itself doesn't breakdown barriers but well put together nonetheless."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostWas just thinking about this in an abstract kind of view and it's interesting, I was just thinking more along the lines of would there be a moral justification for killing in general, where as you you are saying no from criminal justice system pov ie capital punishment.
Would its be really barbaric for a father to kill a serial pedophile? Is there no moral justification for a woman to kill the partner that has systematically abused her for years, or like the case with the three Russian sisters killing their father because they couldn't see any way out and the authorities didn't help.
It’s something I’ve grappled with a lot to be honest, even recently. And I hope my views have become more nuanced. But I don’t want to discuss the morality of violence generally. It’s capital punishment we are discussing and so far you haven’t made a single coherent argument in favor of itYou are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by gorrrr72 View PostMy Gran started in HB about 7-8 years later so wouldn't be in the pic. My mum and auntie's all worked there over the years and I worked on a milk round for a short while. Lot of history between HB, Hughes Dairy - Premier Dairies and the families all around Loretto, Nutgrove, Holylands, Churchtown etc.Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post'Confirmed bachelor' was always the codeword in our family.
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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View PostI've been castigated for being less than complimentary about his bravery .Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by ComradeCollie View PostThese cunts, who either didn't have the balls or the self awareness to 'come out' in the 1980s, can fuck right off back into their closet as far as I'm concerned.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostYou’re conflating a moral justification for an individual acting in response to an act perpetrated against them or those close to them and the morality of the state killing people for vengeance. It’s not the same thing.
It’s something I’ve grappled with a lot to be honest, even recently. And I hope my views have become more nuanced. But I don’t want to discuss the morality of violence generally. It’s capital punishment we are discussing and so far you haven’t made a single coherent argument in favor of it
Obviously you are entitled whatever view you like on it, but I just find it odd that someone can be so absolutely certain that there is no situation whatsoever whereby capital punishment is not justified.
I asked myself, how do I feel about capital punishment for Hitler, pedophiles, serial killers, etc... and I would struggle to find a reason not to be in favour of capital punishment under certain circumstances. Sometimes you just have to kill the rabid dog...No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View Post
I asked myself, how do I feel about capital punishment for Hitler, pedophiles, serial killers, etc... and I would struggle to find a reason not to be in favour of capital punishment under certain circumstances. Sometimes you just have to kill the rabid dog...
Why would you not favour a life long removal of freedom? I'm sure the perpetrator would choose death over that, in most cases.
Bloodlust?
Biblical ideas of revenge?I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostHaha yeah, lots of sticky out ears.
I had real sticky out ones as a kid. Kinda grew into them or something. Got some abuse over it.Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostNoticed in the Irish childminders that the kids stay in when over in Ireland, that Irish kids look really notable, mainly due to the big circle faces. You are probably all used to it, but those circle faces are objectively hilarious when you aren't used to it.Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostNoticed in the Irish childminders that the kids stay in when over in Ireland, that Irish kids look really notable, mainly due to the big circle faces. You are probably all used to it, but those circle faces are objectively hilarious when you aren't used to it.
My circle face has always been troubled by a French nose. French noses are more hilarious than circle faces . You probably don't notice it.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostI never said I was in favour of it. I simply asked were there no circumstances under which capital punishment is justified. I don't really see much different between the individual carrying out the deed v the state.
Obviously you are entitled whatever view you like on it, but I just find it odd that someone can be so absolutely certain that there is no situation whatsoever whereby capital punishment is not justified.
I asked myself, how do I feel about capital punishment for Hitler, pedophiles, serial killers, etc... and I would struggle to find a reason not to be in favour of capital punishment under certain circumstances. Sometimes you just have to kill the rabid dog...You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by DeadParrot View PostI've seen insurance being mentioned a few times as part of government failings.
I'm not entirely sure I know what they are talking about?
INSURANCE company FBD has been accused of ripping off its customers after it said it expects to report a doubling of profits.
One or two pertinent lines in that article that are casually tossed outPeople say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
He said a recent Central Bank report found that, on personal injuries claims below €100,000, legal costs amount to an average of 63pc of the damages awarded."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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No fan of the Shinners but there has been a shameful lack of balance in the media coverage around FF, FG and SF.
I'd say if someone set off an A.I. bot, to examine the tone coverage, the results would be shocking.
It's not like you would have to dig deep to come up with uber negative stories about FF and FG.
Why not feature, and follow u,p those stories about grizzly murders, from years ago at the time they happened? The muck raking has clearly gone into overdrive.
The Indo really went for it today..........
"SF tight-lipped over probe of WhatsApp group that said IRA victims are 'wasters'"
Sinn Féin has refused to say if it carried out an investigation into a WhatsApp group connected to one of its TDs where families of IRA victims were labelled "wasters" giving "sob stories" to the media.
"It took an election to finally get an apology from Sinn Féin - not simple human decency"
The most basic form of human empathy is that when a family is grieving, you most certainly do not compound their grief, particularly when someone receives a death so horrific, it shocks everyone to the core.
"Shadowy figures will never forgive brave mother for taking them on"
Conor Murphy's public apology to the parents of Paul Quinn - for branding him as a common criminal and effectively exonerating the brutal IRA mob who beat him to death - is vindication for a mother's enduring love for a child brutally taken from her in the prime of his life.
Shadowy figures....... will ya give it a rest FFS.Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt
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What I'm frankly amazed at is that the narrative is fuck FG, all hail SF.
Or the shinners are the devil and will ruin the country.
All the while Michael Martin gorms around saying and doing nothing and will sleepwalk in the top job.
And no one fucking cares.People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostYou’re not making an argument in favor of it at all. Just you’d like to see rapists and murderers die. That’s not a reason to risk killing innocent people. Why are you so happy to give the state the power to kill people?
You weep for Santiago...
In all seriousness though, the risk of being wrong is not the point, the point is why would you care if the person live or dies, if it can be proven that they committed the crime to the highest standard that you deem necessary to ensure a mistake is not made.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View PostBecause somebody got to do it.
You weep for Santiago...
In all seriousness though, the risk of being wrong is not the point, the point is why would you care if the person live or dies, if it can be proven that they committed the crime to the highest standard that you deem necessary to ensure a mistake is not made."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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