Bad Beat/Moaning/Venting - pray for Lazare

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Guest]

1 month from now there will only be 3 games left in the Euros

[Lplated]

And I'm assuming that reasonableness is not in any way well defined?

F**k no. Judges can't make stuff up if you define things too clearly. Lawyers woudn't have anything to argue about (for which read ... charge for).

Defining stuff is not how the world works.

[CHDad]

1 month from now there will only be 3 games left in the Euros

But we'll be in a semi before losing to France in the final m8.

Then the Premier League will be along with its madness.

[Lplated]

And so back to the real world, in the case that Transdev do not bid for the tender in coming years, that a new tenderer could make an argument against the deal that was agreed yesterday, so long as they were able to demonstrate that it was not reasonable? (comparing it to similar roles in similar economies, similar roles within the same economy etc).

One would not find it difficult from a 'Free Market' perspective to make the case that the salary that they were already on (5 months ago) was unreasonable, let alone the LC recommended increases.

Can't see the argument in your first para flying at all - after a few years the deal would become practice, normal, expected, which in turn is a component of 'reasonable' in any given context. Easily distinguished from the treble salaries example which was being done in clear sight of the change of contract.

On your second para, that the LC have made a recommendation, which both parties have agreed (and not appealed/refused etc), would of itself indicate reasonableness into the future.

[CHDad]

HYPE HYPE HYPE

9 Days To Go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5PT65I2ny8

[Mellor]

Elvis being the king and Ali the greatest. Two things I've never agreed with my fellow earthlings about. Ali though had the best personality in boxing .

You can't come out with something like that and not offer your alternative. Who is/was the greatest in your eyes?

[Lplated]

Didn't realise there was ways around it.

Used to be that the only thing you couldn't argue about was whether a person was alive or dead.

Nowadays, thanks to advances in medical science, even that is open to argument and interpretation.

[Raoul Duke III]

Tall Ships thing is nice. Bit of a lack of actual tall ships this year though.

Plenty of pirate-themed stuff for kids.

[Emmet]

Can't see the argument in your first para flying at all - after a few years the deal would become practice, normal, expected, which in turn is a component of 'reasonable' in any given context. Easily distinguished from the treble salaries example which was being done in clear sight of the change of contract.

I think we're discussing two different things here. I have stated that the increase promised to drivers in 4 years time, which Transdev has signed up to after the LC has recommended it, doesn't offer the drivers any protection from the tendering as Lloyd has stated (unless in the case where Transdev win the tender of course).

A new tender holder coming in will not be compelled to fulfil that pay increase in their first year of holding the tender.

I am not making any claim about the increases that Transdev have agreed to give during the time of the contract that they currently hold.

On your second para, that the LC have made a recommendation, which both parties have agreed (and not appealed/refused etc), would of itself indicate reasonableness into the future.

No it doesn't? All new tenderer has to do is express that they believe that Transdev included a % pay increase occurring in a year beyond the duration of the contract they had signed up to in an attempt to keep that contract. Given that they don't tender for the contract next time round, it is easy to present the case that they never intended to actually gift that increase as they had no intention of being party to the contract in that year.

Pretty reasonable argument no?

[RichieM]

Thing is, they didn't lose. Nor does it look like they lost. The moral weight of the driver's demands and your feelings on Unions is a separate issue to the analysis of the terms they received. To put it another way - thinking the strike was abhorrent yet the drivers achieved a good outcome from same is not mutually exclusive.

I do feel sometimes that the quality of political debate on here has lowered over the past couple of years due to people who are capable of disassociating their preferences from their analysis increasingly choosing to cheerlead rather than discuss.

Joining the outcome of this dispute with the sentence 'great opportunity to break the unions' really is reaching. I have NEVER personally seen a strike with less public support and yet the drivers get a decent raise for no productivity increase at the end of it and the LC recommendation essentially says that all docked wages, etc should be paid back by their employer - i.e. they shouldn't be out of pocket for having to stand their ground to get the terms they got. Dublin Bus will be issuing the pay rises promised a couple of years ago sharpish or the NRBU will be balloting for strike action very soon imo...



I assume there is a dig there, but I'm not sure what it is.

I agree with what you are saying about the actual outcome being in favour of the drivers but perception in general will be that they had to go back to what was originally offered - thus a loss.

It is excellent money for the job they do so to a certain extent fair play to the, for getting such a cushy number.

If this leads to successful pay claims by all unions where do you think the money to,cover it will come from. We have strict borrowing restrictions now. Infra investment, hiring freezes, cutting services etc etc.

We simply can't afford to pay more, all ps employees are on increments so it's not as if they don't get regular pay rises even if they are small. Trade off for security.

The perception will be the union rolled back, it will be reported e unions rolled back and the precident is now that the unions rolled back.

[Lplated]

I think we're discussing two different things here. I have stated that the increase promised to drivers in 4 years time, which Transdev has signed up to after the LC has recommended it, doesn't offer the drivers any protection from the tendering as Lloyd has stated (unless in the case where Transdev win the tender of course).

A new tender holder coming in will not be compelled to fulfil that pay increase in their first year of holding the tender.

The LC recommendation, as now agreed by both sides, would be wholly binding on any new tenderer. It is now part of the terms of employment.

The only way around it, for the new tenderer, were if it could somehow be considered NOT to be the same undertaking, which as I previously suggested, would involve something as outlandish as laying off all the staff, closing down for an extended period etc...

[Lplated]

No it doesn't? All new tenderer has to do is express that they believe that Transdev included a % pay increase occurring in a year beyond the duration of the contract they had signed up to in an attempt to keep that contract. Given that they don't tender for the contract next time round, it is easy to present the case that they never intended to actually gift that increase as they had no intention of being party to the contract in that year.

Pretty reasonable argument no?

You may not be giving weight to some factors here - most obviously that the deal is the recommendation of an independent body. The deal is agreed by both sides, indicating that they find it reasonable, acceptable etc... That would be important.

In four or five years time, or whenever, the employees terms and conditions will include the deal recommended and agreed yesterday. It is precisely that (the t & c) that a court would protect, unless they were in some unreasonable - but unreasonable in that context doesn't mean can you come up an argument against it, it means something as extreme as your hypothetical about trebling the salaries in the year before departure.

[AndyFatBastard]

Ali was an incredibly polarizing figure during his career if that helps? A generally positive narrative eventually won out and became the perception of him but he would have had plenty of people hoping he lost fights and journalists who weren't drinking the kool aid at the time.

Yeah and this was all happening against the backdrop of the civil rights movement. There were also tons of people who despised him for being outspoken and black.

[Strewelpeter]

Transdev being defeated by button mashers ,they lost 700k on Luas last year,must not be very good businesspeople.

This week when I decided to go to the T20 game in Southampton I assumed I'd go on the train and being able to sit back and relax was part of the attraction of going. First allsorts of complications in getting the last few miles popped up but even if they were surmountable the big issue was that it cost significantly less to hire a car and drive myself, in fact hiring a car and driver wouldn't have been much more expensive than the train.

Previous week we were looking at getting to Edinburgh and return flights for me were €100 but a train from London was running at £280 return

Something seriously askew with public transport pricing policy.

[Emmet]

The LC recommendation, as now agreed by both sides, would be wholly binding on any new tenderer. It is now part of the terms of employment.

Including pay increases Transdev have signed up to that are scheduled outside of the contract that Transdev hold?

If Transdev offered them 2% y-o-y increase for 40 years and they sign it, then every tenderer from now to 2056 would be bound to pay that?

Consider that Transdev have 3 years remaining on their contract. The contract goes to tender in 3 years time.

[LuckyLloyd]

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/inm-coverage-of-moriarty-focused-less-on-o-brien-than-lowry-1.2672236

The big takeaway from the Brexit debate thus far is the inability of modern media to handle such an important debate where the stakes are high and one side is relying more on emotional appeals and scare mongering. This is a strange new world, and the combination of an ever less effective traditional media with the bunkering and confirmation bias of social / new media is gradually poisoning our ability to critically interpret the world around us.

[Emmet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv...owry-1.2672236

The big takeaway from the Brexit debate thus far is the inability of modern media to handle such an important debate where the stakes are high and one side is both sides are relying more on emotional appeals and scare mongering. This is a strange new world, and the combination of an ever less effective traditional media with the bunkering and confirmation bias of social / new media is gradually poisoning our ability to critically interpret the world around us.

fyp

It's battle of the grimness.

[LuckyLloyd]

This week when I decided to go to the T20 game in Southampton I assumed I'd go on the train and being able to sit back and relax was part of the attraction of going. First allsorts of complications in getting the last few miles popped up but even if they were surmountable the big issue was that it cost significantly less to hire a car and drive myself, in fact hiring a car and driver wouldn't have been much more expensive than the train.

Previous week we were looking at getting to Edinburgh and return flights for me were €100 but a train from London was running at £280 return

Something seriously askew with public transport pricing policy.

Train prices in the UK and service levels are a strong argument against privatisation of an essential public service imo.

[Emmet]

Train prices in the UK and service levels are a strong argument against privatisation of an essential public service imo.

Train prices and service levels in the lines that are not monopoly owned are fantastic.

The issue is where some operators have exclusive lines.

Anything on page 50 of here are far better off.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/446255/Passenger_rail_services_in_Great_Britain.pdf

They need to open up the lines better.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9484276/British-trains-still-connect-the-worst-of-both-worlds.html

[LuckyLloyd]

I agree with what you are saying about the actual outcome being in favour of the drivers but perception in general will be that they had to go back to what was originally offered - thus a loss.

It is excellent money for the job they do so to a certain extent fair play to the, for getting such a cushy number.

If this leads to successful pay claims by all unions where do you think the money to,cover it will come from. We have strict borrowing restrictions now. Infra investment, hiring freezes, cutting services etc etc.

We simply can't afford to pay more, all ps employees are on increments so it's not as if they don't get regular pay rises even if they are small. Trade off for security.

The perception will be the union rolled back, it will be reported e unions rolled back and the precident is now that the unions rolled back.

Genuinely baffled as to how you're reaching the last sentence tbh. I'm not seeing it reported in that fashion at all.

As to the rest - either we have the fastest growing economy in Europe and falling unemployment rates or it's all a mirage. But assuming it's the former people will be looking for their slice. There's no point pretending otherwise!

[Strewelpeter]

one side is relying more on emotional appeals and scare mongering.

Unless you mean the leave side this is the wrongest thing you've said in a while... a couple of hours at least

The entire substance of the leave campaign is based on an emotional appeal to some weird notion of a mythical Olde England and a genuinely scary level of fear and loathing directed at immigrants.

[LuckyLloyd]

Train prices and service levels in the lines that are not monopoly owned are fantastic.

The issue is where some operators have exclusive lines.

Anything on page 50 of here are far better off.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/446255/Passenger_rail_services_in_Great_Britain.pdf

They need to open up the lines better.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...th-worlds.html

They look like a collection of high demand commuter services - I don't doubt the N11 corridor in Dublin would be better served in a privatised transport environment. The issue is consistency and quality of service as a whole. Certainly anyone I know living in the UK (and they're not all lefties) have a very negative perception of National rail services.

[LuckyLloyd]

Unless you mean the leave side this is the wrongest thing you've said in a while... a couple of hours at least

The entire substance of the leave campaign is based on an emotional appeal to some weird notion of a mythical Olde England and a genuinely scary level of fear and loathing directed at immigrants.

I was referencing the Leave side, yes.

[Denny Crane]

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv...owry-1.2672236

The big takeaway from the Brexit debate thus far is the inability of modern media to handle such an important debate where the stakes are high and one side is relying more on emotional appeals and scare mongering. This is a strange new world, and the combination of an ever less effective traditional media with the bunkering and confirmation bias of social / new media is gradually poisoning our ability to critically interpret the world around us.

Don't think people have ever been able to critically interpret the world very well. Emotion is always going to be more persuasive.

[BennyHiFi]

Billionaire blue collar rocker Bruce Springsteen subject of a special on BBC 6Musuic for those interested.

Not a fan myself (hey with superfans such as Enda Kenny and RDIII he doesn't need my patronage!)

[Guest]

Weather in the Cote d'Azur is pure shite. Feel cheated! Pissing dish atm.

[Strewelpeter]

When asked by the locals I'm not offering an opinion on Brexit instead I'm asking them two questions:
Do you think the customs posts, security checks and passport control at the land border should be built at the RoI/UK border or would you just cut off Northern Ireland and make UK citizens produce passports internally?
Do you think that Scotland will want to leave the EU?

So far I haven't met anyone who even realised that a land border was an issue or that Brexit could lead to breakup of the UK with Scotland NI or even Wales leaving. Mostly people seem to be operating completely on some very weird emotional responses and no great application of thought or logic.

[Denny Crane]

Most even people seem to be operating completely on some very weird emotional responses and no great application of thought or logic.

[Guest]

When asked by the locals I'm not offering an opinion on Brexit instead I'm asking them two questions:
Do you think the customs posts, security checks and passport control at the land border should be built at the RoI/UK border or would you just cut off Northern Ireland and make UK citizens produce passports internally?
Do you think that Scotland will want to leave the EU?

So far I haven't met anyone who even realised that a land border was an issue or that Brexit could lead to breakup of the UK with Scotland NI or even Wales leaving. Mostly people seem to be operating completely on some very weird emotional responses and no great application of thought or logic.

My stock response is that European directives, working and food hygiene/safety laws stopped Maggie Thatcher & the Tories since her from doing to ye what they really wanted to

Usually gets an as a response from yer average would be Brexiter

[V for Vendetta]

Weather in the Cote d'Azur is pure shite. Feel cheated! Pissing dish atm.

Classic. At least ye have a lovely house to kick back in.

[Lplated]

Including pay increases Transdev have signed up to that are scheduled outside of the contract that Transdev hold?

If Transdev offered them 2% y-o-y increase for 40 years and they sign it, then every tenderer from now to 2056 would be bound to pay that?

Consider that Transdev have 3 years remaining on their contract. The contract goes to tender in 3 years time.

The first part isn't manifestly unreasonable, it's for two years (?) beyond where we think the contract might end, five years not that unusual, overall size of the award not that unusual etc etc... - so my honest opinion is the it is an argument that wont be made - i.e. the % risk of losing the case times the amount they would save if they did win it will be clearly a minus EV case. Add in poor publicity, risk of more strikes etc just when new undertaking is getting going and I can't see it being worth the employers time even thinking about it.

Second part is so unusual - i.e. a set increase guaranteed for 40 years, that it is almost certainly unreasonable and wouldn't be binding.

Just to preempt your next move - the timeline, i.e. three year run to 40 year run, would be a factor, but only one factor. The extent of the concept of reasonableness is limited only by the inventiveness of the judge.

So, three years, probably ok, forty years definately not. But if you asked about 10 years, I would be unsure.

[Guest]

When asked by the locals I'm not offering an opinion on Brexit instead I'm asking them two questions:
Do you think the customs posts, security checks and passport control at the land border should be built at the RoI/UK border or would you just cut off Northern Ireland and make UK citizens produce passports internally?
Do you think that Scotland will want to leave the EU?

ooh & I'm stealing this and using it to make merry

[ArmaniJeans]

They look like a collection of high demand commuter services - I don't doubt the N11 corridor in Dublin would be better served in a privatised transport environment. The issue is consistency and quality of service as a whole. Certainly anyone I know living in the UK (and they're not all lefties) have a very negative perception of National rail services.

That's just people generally complaining about public transport because of one or two minor grievances. Even those who have a superb service (say in the London 1-6 zone area, or Merseyrail or Greater Manchester) have always been fairly negative in my experience.
Then those who live in a small catchment area travelling to a slightly larger urban centre sometimes seem to expect miracles, rather than the functioning system (non express trains on an infrequent timetable) that they get.
Just cause people complain doesn't mean they are right.

[Strewelpeter]

Weather in the Cote d'Azur is pure shite. Feel cheated! Pissing dish atm.

Too hot and sunny to stay outside today

[Raoul Duke III]

Weather in the Cote d'Azur is pure shite. Feel cheated! Pissing dish atm.

It was too hot to stay out in the sun at the Tall Ships here.

Quare sunburnt

[RichieM]

Yeah and this was all happening against the backdrop of the civil rights movement. There were also tons of people who despised him for being outspoken and black.

not going to nam was a pretty big pressure point. Would have been a terrible waste if he had went for world sport but some at the time thought him a coward. Hilarious when you consider what he did for a living but again polarised opinions.

[Denny Crane]

There's hot girls in bikinis in the park, if this is the ‘price’ of car pollution, you’ll forgive me if I keep my old Pontiac.

[Theresa]

Hot girls are solar powered Denny!

[rounders123]

Ive only now copped that GOAT stands for Greatest Of All Time thanks to Gary Players tribute to Ali haha!. Always just thought it was a figure of speech for the best.
Bless us and save us

[LuckyLloyd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55AasOJZzDE

Essential viewing this weekend. Fascinating to see how the fight is covered and presented and the bedlam in the ring after (and the slightly shambolic preamble).

[ComradeCollie]

Ive only now copped that GOAT stands for Greatest Of All Time thanks to Gary Players tribute to Ali haha!. Always just thought it was a figure of speech for the best.
Bless us and save us

Reminds me of asking RD3 what GOP stands for. Must have heard it all my life, and just never even wondered what it meant. It's like some kind of weird cognitive blindness.

[6starpool]

Went down to Powerscourt Waterfall earlier for a couple of hours. Absolutely beautiful down there, amazing that I never considered the 40 min drive it took to get there before today. Loads of people about as well.

[CHDad]

Went down to Powerscourt Waterfall earlier for a couple of hours. Absolutely beautiful down there, amazing that I never considered the 40 min drive it took to get there before today. Loads of people about as well.

Shh, don't want more of you dirty foreigners in our County.

[Guest]

Shh, don't want more of you dirty foreigners in our County.

Was that psycho who almost killed four children in Wicklow last night a native or a forriner.

[CHDad]

Was that psycho who almost killed four children in Wicklow last night a native or a forriner.

Mental illness m8.

[horatio1]

Nowlan park looks well decked out in blue. C'mon Dublin.

[Raoul Duke III]

Reminds me of asking RD3 what GOP stands for. Must have heard it all my life, and just never even wondered what it meant. It's like some kind of weird cognitive blindness.

Grand Old Party.

Although I was never quite sure of the origins so just looked it up.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1481/why-is-the-republican-party-called-the-gop

[Solskjaer]

You can't come out with something like that and not offer your alternative. Who is/was the greatest in your eyes?

Most talented ? Sugar Ray Leonard.
Best bio . Joe Louis .

Better than Elvis ? Many of his black peers .



I loved Joe Frazier and Ali was a prick to him


Elvis was a hero for doing something that Ali was a hero for NOT doing.


I reserve the right to be wrong.

[Mickey Rosa]

This drone flying is addictive...

SPOILER

[Fiery Wasabi]

This drone flying is addictive...

SPOILER

Can you post a picture of the drone?
Where would one purchase such an item.?
Ball park price?
How long does the battery last?
Is it noisy while flying?
Sorry for all the questions, but I want one now
Ps, Super picture btw.

[dobby]

Nowlan park looks well decked out in blue. C'mon Dublin.

C'mon whoever they're playing

[Strewelpeter]

[DeadParrot]

Arsenal trigger Vadry release cause for £20million.

[6starpool]

Arsenal trigger Vadry release cause for £20million.

Are you a day behind in other things too?

[hotspur]

Anyone heard from zod lately?

Ding ding ding ding!

You have just triggered a Where was TylerDurden special edition, featuring Zod.

At 2:45 today Zod got on a number 14 bus on Amiens Street, heading north. He chose to stand, and spent the entire time I was spying on him typing messages on a social media site, possibly Facebook, on his phone. He was wearing a grey hooded top, which looked a bit warm for the day that was in it.

Thanks for tuning in.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Mickey Rosa]

Can you post a picture of the drone?
Where would one purchase such an item.?
Ball park price?
How long does the battery last?
Is it noisy while flying?
Sorry for all the questions, but I want one now
Ps, Super picture btw.

I'm using a DJI Phantom 4 and it's the nuts unless you are looking to film for hollywood blockbusters. You'll get all the info and can buy it directlyhere. It's going to set you back about €1600 but can save a bit by buying it in the US, which I did. You will also need an iPad or iPhone 6 (iPad size is better) to use as part of the controller.

The battery lasts a maximum of 28mins and the drone will return to where it took off from when the battery gets too low. It can go up to about 1300ft (legally in Ireland you can't go over 400ft) and can travel up to 5km away from you (again in Ireland legally you have to keep it in your sight line). It's as noisy in flight as you'd probably expect from something that powerful.

There are tons of reviews etc on youtube.

[ComradeCollie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55AasOJZzDE

Essential viewing this weekend. Fascinating to see how the fight is covered and presented and the bedlam in the ring after (and the slightly shambolic preamble).

Think I've watched about 8 hours of a boxset now, though mostly loved Howard Cossells commentaries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1QVthvDhPo

[gorrrr72]

I agree with what you are saying about the actual outcome being in favour of the drivers but perception in general will be that they had to go back to what was originally offered - thus a loss.

It is excellent money for the job they do so to a certain extent fair play to the, for getting such a cushy number.

Why do you feel it's a cushy number? Sounds like a stressful and boring job to me.

If this leads to successful pay claims by all unions where do you think the money to,cover it will come from. We have strict borrowing restrictions now. Infra investment, hiring freezes, cutting services etc etc.

Why are you worried about where the money comes from? That's for the government to figure out. Maybe if we didn't bail out the banks it wouldn't be a concern. It's that kind of thinking that keeps people underpaid for the jobs that they do (not specifically Luas employees).

We simply can't afford to pay more, all ps employees are on increments so it's not as if they don't get regular pay rises even if they are small. Trade off for security.

Who is this "we"? Do you work for Transdev?
So the increments are keeping up with inflation, rent prices, property prices.

The perception will be the union rolled back, it will be reported e unions rolled back and the precident is now that the unions rolled back.

Who's perception? Ours? The publics? What does that matter? They either rolled back or they didn't? If it's a fact then perception doesn't come into it.