Bad Beat/Moaning/Venting - pray for Lazare

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Guest]

Arm the Kurds. Re-arm Assad. Get the Iranians to put more men in (what a great way to bring Iran back into the international mainstream). Put western know-how and special forces in place

Tell the fucking Turks and Qataris that their countries will be boycotted forever if they don't stop funding ISIS. No more speaking out both sides of your mouth for Muslim countries - ISIS have to be destroyed and if you're not with us, you're against us.

This talk of Turkey in the Eu is a joke as well thanks Merkel easy knowing she has no kids who will have to live in the mess she has helped create.
I dont know the full story but Turkey obviously is a shit stirrer in regards to Syria.

[Raoul Duke III]

I'm tying to square your Thatcherite response here with your republicanism sympathies

It's not Thatcherite.

It's Churchillian.

[Raoul Duke III]

This talk of Turkey in the Eu is a joke as well thanks Merkel easy knowing she has no kids who will have to live in the mess she has helped create.
I dont know the full story but Turkey obviously is a shit stirrer in regards to Syria.

The current Turkish government is a disgrace and the main reason ISIS have managed to capture all the territory they have.

[Strewelpeter]

It still seems bizarre to me, that there isn't a way to stop them selling their oil. Who is buying it, and how?

Denny Crane

[Raoul Duke III]

It still seems bizarre to me, that there isn't a way to stop them selling their oil. Who is buying it, and how?

Whose oil?

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[Guest]

I'm clearly on the wrong side of this, no-one is being reactionary, and this will be the first time a war has solved anything.

Think world war one stopped a europe being dominated by germany.
World war two stopped the nazis.

[Denny Crane]

What did you expect my reaction to be out of interest?

Thought you'd have less of GWB reaction and more empathy for the socio and economic factors behind the aggression. Figured you'd have learned from more than a decade of war on terror that 'killing the bad' guys does very little. Figured that you'd think guys don't go and blow themselves up because they hate the west.

I'm meant to be the heartless right-winger, you're meant to be the lefty. It's like calling for more bombs to pacify Palestine rather than tackling the real problem.

[Raoul Duke III]

I'm clearly on the wrong side of this, no-one is being reactionary, and this will be the first time a war has solved anything.

I'm afraid you are on the wrong side of it. ISIS are evil incarnate and constitute an existential threat to our civilisation.

The war against them should be seen in the same light as the war against Nazism. You cannot appease these maniacs.

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[Raoul Duke III]

But why did this response, of seeming rational origin, not get expressed following Beiruit earlier in the week and the Russia plane last week, also by ISIS. It's almost like people are emotionally reacting rather than the self-proclaimed rationality.

Blood on your own streets tends to focus the mind. For 'Paris', think 'Rennes'. Or 'Dublin'.

[Denny Crane]

Denny Crane

I'm selling the shit out of oil, lost a ton on Friday because I held long term contracts against my better judgement. 30 dollar handle is coming.

[Guest]

Not just Merkel, the entirety of Germany has no kids. Second oldest nation in the world and due for massive shrinkage unless they bring in massive numbers of immigrants. Africa, parts of Asia, and Middle East are the only regions with loads of people to spare.

What about europe countrys like spain greece even ireland has huge number sof unemployed under 25.
Destroying 100s of years of your culture by bringing in backward masses of people from africa and the middle east wont help.
Offer incentives for women to have more kids.
Ill volunteer myself to impregnate a few nice germans.

[Raoul Duke III]

Thought you'd have less of GWB reaction and more empathy for the socio and economic factors behind the aggression. Figured you'd have learned from more than a decade of war on terror that 'killing the bad' guys does very little. Figured that you'd think guys don't go and blow themselves up because they hate the west.

I'm meant to be the heartless right-winger, you're meant to be the lefty. It's like calling for more bombs to pacify Palestine rather than tackling the real problem.

You don't start with a socio-economic analysis here.

You start with destroying ISIS. Then you tell the Saudis they will go the same way unless they start funding a de-extremist programme of massive scale throughout the ME.

[Denny Crane]

Arm the Kurds. Re-arm Assad. Get the Iranians to put more men in (what a great way to bring Iran back into the international mainstream). Put western know-how and special forces in place

Tell the fucking Turks and Qataris that their countries will be boycotted forever if they don't stop funding ISIS. No more speaking out both sides of your mouth for Muslim countries - ISIS have to be destroyed and if you're not with us, you're against us.

Just like they armed Osama and Afghanistan, and Iran, and Iraq. It's like the NRA calling for guns in schools.

[Raoul Duke III]

Just like they armed Osama and Afghanistan, and Iran, and Iraq. It's like the NRA calling for guns in schools.

We can deal with dictators. Lesser evil.

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[Strewelpeter]

Arm the Kurds. Re-arm Assad. Get the Iranians to put more men in (what a great way to bring Iran back into the international mainstream). Put western know-how and special forces in place

So, you are asking for more weapons and training for fascists and rabid nationalists to fight unwinnable wars in the ME

Tell the fucking Turks and Qataris that their countries will be boycotted forever if they don't stop funding ISIS. No more speaking out both sides of your mouth for Muslim countries - ISIS have to be destroyed and if you're not with us, you're against us.

Thats more like it.

The current Turkish government is a disgrace and the main reason ISIS have managed to capture all the territory they have.

ISIS are a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population of the areas they are operating in. Like earlier extreme Jihad groups they are ephemeral so they cannot and will not be eliminated just by force. The hearts and minds of populations vulnerable to them have to be won. The west cannot continue to ignore the elephant in the room. Until the Palestine problem is addressed there can be no reconciliation with the west for the Middle eastern man on the street.

I'll save my comments on Lloyds disgusting comparison with Derry in 69 for another calmer time.

[LuckyLloyd]

I'm tying to square your Thatcherite response here with your republican sympathies

As I said, the contexts are very different here. Republicans had / have an end goal and ultimately could be reasoned / negotiated with.

[Hectorjelly]

Lloyd doing a great job here.

You cannot negotiate with, or appease, maniacs. We had the supreme example of that in 1938. ISIS are this generations Nazis.

This precise anecdote is taught as an example of superficial and bad thinking and how not to learn the lessons of history. Referred to repeatedly in this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0029227917/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[LuckyLloyd]

I'll save my comments on Lloyds disgusting comparison with Derry in 69 for another calmer time.

Eh, I said you couldn't compare the two. Do you ever tire of windmilling?

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[LuckyLloyd]

I'm meant to be the heartless right-winger, you're meant to be the lefty.

This is so tiresome, and it's the type of thinking that makes liberals assume they need to defend the worst extremes of feminism and argue at times like this that the West are somehow to blame for the face that a bunch of evil pricks started shooting innocent people indiscriminately.

Every situation is deserving of its own analysis.

[Raoul Duke III]

This precise anecdote is taught as an example of superficial and bad thinking and how not to learn the lessons of history. Referred to repeatedly in this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/002...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Can you expand on that HJ?

From my point of view both Hitler and ISIS are evil, determined fanatics bound by no civilised rules. Appeasement only strengthened Hitler, it will only allow ISIS to strengthen.

Western civilisation had to compromise many principles to survive and triumph in 1939-1945. The western powers allied with a genocidal dictator (Stalin) to defeat a worse evil in Nazism. We face similar choices today.

[Denny Crane]

Do people really think that bombing a such a decentralised and locally supported organisation like ISIS will actually achieve anything? Their accumulation of territory has been breathtaking. Defeating them with blunt strength will make Vietnam and Northern Ireland look like a cakewalk.

[Raoul Duke III]

ISIS are a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population of the areas they are operating in. Like earlier extreme Jihad groups they are ephemeral so they cannot and will not be eliminated just by force. The hearts and minds of populations vulnerable to them have to be won. The west cannot continue to ignore the elephant in the room. Until the Palestine problem is addressed there can be no reconciliation with the west for the Middle eastern man on the street..

ISIS has fuck all to do with Palestine although I knew someone would try to blame the jews eventually.

Also they are not ephemeral - they control territory several times the size of Ireland and are busy exterminating everyone who isn't a member of their loony club.

[Guest]

Me too, am going there next week handily enough.

But i'll wager something close to all the cash in the world that you don't know what youth employment figures actually mean.

All i know from having lived in Holland from 1997to 2000 is lots of areas are ghettoised by large communities of Turks Moroccans the former dutch colonies not to bad have surinemese and indonesians.
Integration in Holland is a joke unless yous ee some young white chick trying to piss off her dad by fucking an abdul or mohammed.
Germany has the same problems dont see how piling in migrants from muslim countrys will help.
Have not seen any recruitment drives from german companys in ireland.
ten of 10000s of young irish people have left ireland to get a job better life.
Germany has many attractions why doesnt there government make an effort with people with the same values europeans to settle there.

[LuckyLloyd]

Do people really think that bombing a such a decentralised and locally supported organisation like ISIS will actually achieve anything? Their accumulation of territory has been breathtaking. Defeating them with blunt strength will make Vietnam and Northern Ireland look like a cakewalk.

I wouldn't continue bombing them but actually go in ala Iraq and Afghanistan. This is the one that's right to do.

[Denny Crane]

Lloyd doing a great job here.

You cannot negotiate with, or appease, maniacs. We had the supreme example of that in 1938. ISIS are this generations Nazis.

What created the Nazis?

[Denny Crane]

I wouldn't continue bombing them but actually go in ala Iraq and Afghanistan. This is the one that's right to do.

This time will be different eh.

[Wesley Harms]

Is hitch on the wind up all day or just drinking heavily

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[Strewelpeter]

I'm afraid you are on the wrong side of it. ISIS are evil incarnate and constitute an existential threat to our civilisation.

The war against them should be seen in the same light as the war against Nazism. You cannot appease these maniacs.

I don't think so, thats as OTT an emotional response as I've heard today.

They oppress and mistreat the populations they control in such a medieval fashion that their model is unsustainable in the modern world.

They are taking what the Iranian Mullahs and Taliban attempted and are pushing it to reductio ad absurdum. Their only territory for expansion is amongst the very poorest and most hopeless communities in the Islamis world.

The comparison to Nazism is useless.

[LuckyLloyd]

French Foreign Legion Lloyd. Put the weight lifting and big heart to good use.

Another stellar contribution.

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[Guest]

What created the Nazis?

The allies failure to allow John J pershing to occupy Germany and destroy german militarism.

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[Raoul Duke III]

I don't think so, thats as OTT an emotional response as I've heard today.

They oppress and mistreat the populations they control in such a medieval fashion that their model is unsustainable in the modern world.

They are taking what the Iranian Mullahs and Taliban attempted and are pushing it to reductio ad absurdum. Their only territory for expansion is amongst the very poorest and most hopeless communities in the Islamis world.

The comparison to Nazism is useless.

No it's very apt.

Two totalitarian death cults with a mission to destroy entire races. Both with supreme leaders whose word cannot be questioned (one just happens to be a paranormal being). Neither could be contained through negotiation or appeasement.

[Guest]

Thanks dude. Yourself and sickpuppy have this wrapped up though.

FU i dont even lift.

[MrsFlushdraw]

Sorry to hear that about your daughter Mrs Flushdraw. May be scant consolation but I went to see a band recently in Dublin where the lead singer has the same condition and has carved out a pretty incredible musical career despite his health issues:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Cox

Your daughter sounds like she has a really positive attitude, who knows what she is capable of!

Cheers Lloyd, have heard a good few positive stories about Marfan sufferers and she plans on using her height to her full advantage. Luckily she was interested in a modelling career. There is a good chance she will stop about 6' and I think her career choice is perfect for her!

[Hectorjelly]

Can you expand on that HJ?

From my point of view both Hitler and ISIS are evil, determined fanatics bound by no civilised rules. Appeasement only strengthened Hitler, it will only allow ISIS to strengthen.

Western civilisation had to compromise many principles to survive and triumph in 1939-1945. The western powers allied with a genocidal dictator (Stalin) to defeat a worse evil in Nazism. We face similar choices today.

Playing poker so this will be badly phrased and with no references, but the Chamberlain anecdote is one that is trotted out by the hawks in any conflict regardless of the circumstances. The analysis is so shallow as to be counter productive. At the start of the Cuban missile conflict the hawks used it as justification for starting a hot war with russia, luckily for humankind wiser heads prevailed and they actually used the lessons from history.

On a related but tangental note Chambelains reputation is undergoing a reprieve amongst historians and his decisions are no longer thought to be as bad as commonly thought.

[Denny Crane]

This is so tiresome, and it's the type of thinking that makes liberals assume they need to defend the worst extremes of feminism and argue at times like this that the West are somehow to blame for the face that a bunch of evil pricks started shooting innocent people indiscriminately.

Every situation is deserving of its own analysis.

Moral philosophy doesn't rely on context fwiw.

[Guest]

This time will be different eh.

If you go in after I*I* and Boko Haram, you go in hard, you don't go in half arsed and you don't go in dragging a ton of contractors to rape the shit out of the invaded countries national/natural resources

Heavily armed, large, kill squads

I*I* isn't that big a group and they will have fuck all on the ground support if you don't fuck with the locals while you're in there

Just occasionally, shit is that simple!

Where it leads is another question!

[Raoul Duke III]

Playing poker so this will be badly phrased and with no references, but the Chamberlain anecdote is one that is trotted out by the hawks in any conflict regardless of the circumstances. The analysis is so shallow as to be counter productive. At the start of the Cuban missile conflict the hawks used it as justification for starting a hot war with russia, luckily for humankind wiser heads prevailed and they actually used the lessons from history.

On a related but tangental note Chambelains reputation is undergoing a reprieve amongst historians and his decisions are no longer thought to be as bad as commonly thought.

You're obviously concentrating more on your poker than your bbv posting! The above does not explain your previous post in any way.

[Guest]

Playing poker so this will be badly phrased and with no references, but the Chamberlain anecdote is one that is trotted out by the hawks in any conflict regardless of the circumstances. The analysis is so shallow as to be counter productive. At the start of the Cuban missile conflict the hawks used it as justification for starting a hot war with russia, luckily for humankind wiser heads prevailed and they actually used the lessons from history.

On a related but tangental note Chambelains reputation is undergoing a reprieve amongst historians and his decisions are no longer thought to be as bad as commonly thought.

Ya giving the germans the Sudetenland in the 1938 agreement was great for the czechs lost most of there industry and then the rest of there country afterwards.
You cannot appease bullys.

[horatio1]

I'm selling the shit out of oil, lost a ton on Friday because I held long term contracts against my better judgement. 30 dollar handle is coming.

I am just about to order 1000 ltrs , Do you deliver?

[Denny Crane]

Curious about the worst extremes of feminism or the reasoning for why evil guys spontaneously decided to shot people?

[Denny Crane]

I am just about to order 1000 ltrs , Do you deliver?

Smallest I could deliver is 42,000 gallons. Would do a good price though!

[Hectorjelly]

Think world war one stopped a europe being dominated by germany.
World war two stopped the nazis.

The first world war wasn't fought to stop Germany dominating Europe, it was mainly a huge diplomatic failure (by everyone) and a result of the specific military specifics (in short if anyone started the war first they would win because vast armies need time to mobilise), so everyone started at the same time. The guns of August is a fantastic read on the month leading up to war and why exactly it happened.

[Guest]

The first world war wasn't fought to stop Germany dominating Europe, it was mainly a huge diplomatic failure (by everyone) and a result of the specific military specifics (in short if anyone started the war first they would win because vast armies need time to mobilise), so everyone started at the same time. The guns of August is a fantastic read on the month leading up to war and why exactly it happened.

Don't forget the French and the Brits shitting the bed over the Germans doing a deal with Iran with regards to oil

[Guest]

The first world war wasn't fought to stop Germany dominating Europe, it was mainly a huge diplomatic failure (by everyone) and a result of the specific military specifics (in short if anyone started the war first they would win because vast armies need time to mobilise), so everyone started at the same time. The guns of August is a fantastic read on the month leading up to war and why exactly it happened.

Your wrong britain knew that the mad kaiser was hell bent on a european war.
Russias guarantee to serbia germanys blank check to austro hungary also factors.
Britain would have had to fight them at some stage no point waiting till they had defeated everyone and gained more territory.
Good luck in the poker.

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[Guest]

Time for all the wishful thinkers to STFU. Reality crashed the party last night and all the bedwetting lefty apologists who feel they can lecture people around the world from our lofty perch of bullshit neutrality can gtfo

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[Denny Crane]

Time for all the wishful thinkers to STFU. Reality crashed the party last night and all the bedwetting lefty apologists who feel they can lecture people around the world from our lofty perch of bullshit neutrality can gtfo

I'd agree if we hadn't been bombing whoever took our fancy for the last fifteen years.

[ArmaniJeans]

It started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry.

[ComradeCollie]

Thread title change to 'Is there anything to be said for another war?'

Or 'Most posters agree that the Nazis were bad'.

[cardshark202]

It would be interesting to learn what Hitch thinks the solution to ISIS should be. It seems to be "don't bomb them and they will make nice with us".

For the record, I want to see them all dead. If that means doing business with Assad so be it - he is a lesser evil. The US, Brits et al have clearly come around to this view.

Assad's the lesser evil huh? Hasn't he killed about half a million of his own people already?

I don't think there is a lesser evil here tbh.