Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - BabyforV

[Strewelpeter]

I don't any politician or political party in Ireland approaches fascism,

Have you heard Murphy Smith and this assclown who is on the radio now defending last nights thuggery outside the Dail

I know its contentious to the point that many people feel the word is useless, but IMO it remains a very important description of extreme authoritarian political groups who use violence as a tactic.

[Strewelpeter]

Who is this guy, one of Murphy's henchman on RTE now?

Yikes! he is a Councillor

https://twitter.com/cllrmobrien

what a low life scumbag

[Guest]

What was it he did wrong ? I don't even remember!

I'm sure whatever it was it was right up there with mass murder and running the countries premier organised crime racket or personally ordering the murder of a widowed mother and denying her family access to her body.

Ah come on,what shatter did was outrageous, don't let your all consuming Shinner rage fog blind you to that. I think there's a good few who would like to turn a blind eye because his efforts were directed at Wallace and daly,which is telling.
On a slightly related note I thought the reporting around the recent garda suicide in the NW was disgraceful.

[Bubbleking]

Shatter was a quality politician! He didn't suffer fools lightly and generally got the job done. If Wallace just paid his fine for being on the mobile we would still have shatter around

Varadkar is doing a great job as minister for health (well as good as he possibly can) for the most part his hands are tied and the HSE is a filthy beast that needs to be exterminated

[LuckyLloyd]

I feel that blocking a few cars outside the Dail is far less threatening to democracy than:

- making unfair and inaccurate statements about RTE correspondents;
- criticising whistleblowers and trying to suppress follow up on their allegations regarding penalty points;
- attempt to suppress investigation into alleged bugging of GSOC by Gardai;
- appoint a campaign donor as Garda confidential recipient and then allow the appointee to impart to a whistleblower (with serious concerns) that he would be "finished" if he crossed Shatter himself;

But it's hard to remember all that I suppose. Vote FG.

[Kayroo]

But it's hard to remember all that I suppose. Vote FG.

All bullshit rhetoric aside (I'm hardly a Shatter fan after all) there is a real issue here Lloyd. If any of these events was a one off then the silly condemnations of those it inconveniences would be exactly that: silly.

However when we look at a developing pattern of these protests becoming violent, in varying degrees and thankfully to relatively minor levels thus far, it presents a much more genuine worry. Murphy and others are effectively stoking a mob here and then act as apologists for it either minimising the incidents or claiming they cannot be responsible for the negative aspects of the demonstrations while claiming absolute credit for the positives.

The demonstrations themselves are obviously not violent - although there is an increasingly menacing tone to them - however the consistent acts of violence which seem to occur within them has to be a cause for concern.

And please don't bat my point away with a non sequitur about FG. Go back and read my posts about what Shatter did while Minister and you'll find I was a more vocal critic than you or pretty much anyone else here.

EDIT: Obviously I'm not putting any of this at your door or expecting you to answer for the actions of AAA or other such groups

[Raoul Duke III]

Varoufuckit has just made the referendum about him. "I will resign if it's a Yes".

Despite this, he seems convinced that the Eurogroup will instantly restart negotiations and quickly agree a deal if it's a No.

He does get props for HoC references. Asked if Merkel was out to enforce regime change in Greece:

you might think that, I couldn't possibly comment

[Denny Crane]

Who is this guy, one of Murphy's henchman on RTE now?

Yikes! he is a Councillor

https://twitter.com/cllrmobrien

what a low life scumbag

What's he saying?

[Raoul Duke III]

Good time Charlie McCreevy's unapologetic performance yesterday must push him high up on our favourite politician list

I think Juncker has to be up there too. For drunken shenanigans, hard to beat (Yeltsin obv. the all-time benchmark).

Djisselbloem is fucking cool too.

[Raoul Duke III]

I feel that blocking a few cars outside the Dail is far less threatening to democracy than:

- making unfair and inaccurate statements about RTE correspondents;
- criticising whistleblowers and trying to suppress follow up on their allegations regarding penalty points;
- attempt to suppress investigation into alleged bugging of GSOC by Gardai;
- appoint a campaign donor as Garda confidential recipient and then allow the appointee to impart to a whistleblower (with serious concerns) that he would be "finished" if he crossed Shatter himself;

But it's hard to remember all that I suppose. Vote FG.

Hard to take of this shit seriously with the drama playing out in Greece tbf. Irish politics is so boring and parochial.

[Strewelpeter]

Don't remember? Cool. .

Ah come on,what shatter did was outrageous,

TBH there was so much shit being thrown at him I had to go back and look at the sequence of events to check what he actually went over the cliff for and that was :

...rising from the allegations of whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe.

He said Mr Shatter “feels it’s his duty to resign from his responsibilities” based on the report’s finding of an “inadequate response of the Minister under his statutory function and statutory responsibilities for independent investigation and analysis into these matters”.

Sure, that was fair enough reason to resign and I would say not at all of the approach I'd have expected from Shatter

I think there's a good few who would like to turn a blind eye because his efforts were directed at Wallace and daly,which is telling..

Thats not why he went and tbh it was nothing more than a comedy moment but it did serve as a pointer to the unhealthily cosy relationship he had with Callanan.

[Strewelpeter]

What's he saying?

They were provoked. I didn't see anything. This is a legitimate way to do democracy when you don't agree with the will of the people.

[Raoul Duke III]

Sure, that was fair enough reason to resign and I would say not at all of the approach I'd have expected from Shatter

First Rule of Irish politics: "Never Resign".

Shoulda told 'em all to get fucked. Arrested a few troublemakers like Lloyd and had them executed.

[Strewelpeter]

I feel that blocking a few cars outside the Dail ...
.

Assaulting Gardai causing at least one young female officer to be hospitalised, spitting and throwing bottles and other projectiles and blockading democraticaly elected representatives of the people for hours.
If you cannot agree that is fascistic behaviour then you need to take a good look at what you are condoning.

[Strewelpeter]

Cowan taking Good Time Charlie's lead here... I regret everything I did wrong which was nothing

[RichieM]

O

I feel that blocking a few cars outside the Dail is far less threatening to democracy than:

- making unfair and inaccurate statements about RTE correspondents;
- criticising whistleblowers and trying to suppress follow up on their allegations regarding penalty points;
- attempt to suppress investigation into alleged bugging of GSOC by Gardai;
- appoint a campaign donor as Garda confidential recipient and then allow the appointee to impart to a whistleblower (with serious concerns) that he would be "finished" if he crossed Shatter himself;

But it's hard to remember all that I suppose. Vote FG.

It is hard to swallow the guys saying everyone is allowed to have a peaceful protest (completely agree) when talking about a protest that lead to a Garda being hospitalised and bottles, rocks and other bits thrown around.

It may be different where I am from but throwing a bottle is not a peaceful gesture.

In terms of shatter, capable politician who generally did what he said he would do. Always a rare thing following through. As a man he was obviously supremely arrogant and the cover up of whistleblowers and tapping is a fireable offense so really should have lost his seat as well. Corruption is not a case for dismissal in Ireland for some reason tho.

I think he genuinely wanted to improve the whole country and not just resecure his next election by doing good for his locals. Rare again.

Overall I think he was a net positive which is not something you can say about many politicians since the states formation more probably caused harm and most did nothing really.

In short shatter was good up until he wasn't and then it could have been criminal. Throwing bottles at the police is always bad and definitely deserves jail.

[Dice75]

Shatter was a quality politician! He didn't suffer fools lightly and generally got the job done. If Wallace just paid his fine for being on the mobile we would still have shatter around

Varadkar is doing a great job as minister for health (well as good as he possibly can) for the most part his hands are tied and the HSE is a filthy beast that needs to be exterminated

Out of curiosity, what is the answer to sort out the HSE? Back to Regional independent Health Boards?

[Raoul Duke III]

Out of curiosity, what is the answer to sort out the HSE? Back to Regional independent Health Boards?

Jesus, no.

Politically-infested disaster zones. Just make the HSE work (which means breaking the unions).

[RichieM]

Out of curiosity, what is the answer to sort out the HSE? Back to Regional independent Health Boards?

Another rebranding a redistricting exercise is not what is needed. It costs a lot and all you end up doing is changing the stationary since you can't change the personnel or where they are located.

Admin efficiencies would be nice if they could be achieved. Basically removing most of the staff and replacing them with decent software would do it.

Getting rid of the panels where by people just signed up first get jobs on that basis. My girlfriend did an interview when she finished up college 5 years ago. She is now near the top of the list for OT so can take a job even if she hasn't any experience in that area. Stupid system so go back to cv screen and interviews. This is all auxiliary staff so not doctors and I think nurses.

Apart from that close down non performing hospitals and concentrate services. Unpopular but cost effective. Finally due to poor admin apparently we loose a lot of overseas insurance money. We should probably be milking yanks who get sick here not forgetting to send the paperwork.

[RichieM]

Jesus, no.

Politically-infested disaster zones. Just make the HSE work (which means breaking the unions).

Free health care will always be expensive. seperating frontline staff from the deep civil services guys behind would be a start for negotiations.

[LuckyLloyd]

Where does it leave us if FG supporters reject the idea that a minister should he held accountable for serious abuses of power and manipulation but cry foul about how protests that have yet to see any significant violence or damage to property are "sinister", etc.

There's stupidity and entrenchment on all sides. I believe people have the right to protest and unfortunately I believe effective protest involves disruption to some degree, whether that be blocking a road or vehicle for a few hours. The people engaging in these protests are a minority, but obviously an aggrieved minority. So long as they are batted away by being labelled sinister, violent and scumbags they will have no motivation to stop or scale back their behaviour.

No one is seriously engaging on either side at present.

[Denny Crane]

Is there a good breakdown somewhere of each countries liability to Greece?

[Emmet]

Is there a good breakdown somewhere of each countries liability to Greece?

The numbers are all conflated so it's quite tough.

We're down for about €2.7bn though.

The latest estimates on Ireland's exposure to Greece is 2.7bn, a fair bit higher than earlier estimates

Comprised of:

Bilateral loan: €0.35bn.
Share of IMF loans: €0.1bn
Share of ECB bond holdings: €0.3bn
Target 2 Balances and other misc items owed to Irish CB: €2bn

About €600 per head of every Irish person. Or 4 years of water charges (after conservation grant).

[AndyFatBastard]

Shatter was a quality politician! He didn't suffer fools lightly and generally got the job done. If Wallace just paid his fine for being on the mobile we would still have shatter around

Varadkar is doing a great job as minister for health (well as good as he possibly can) for the most part his hands are tied and the HSE is a filthy beast that needs to be exterminated

Shatter was a reckless authoritarian with a blatant disregard for due process. He certainly got the job done, but if that's what it takes then it isn't worth doing.

[Denny Crane]

No one is seriously engaging on either side at present.

How can you? Paul Murphy and the like genuinely don't understand how or why Greece owes what it does. He's calling for a default not realising it's the rest of the EU that's on the hook. And he has no interest in trying to grasp the situation. It's like they believe it's all a giant neoliberal conspiracy.

[LuckyLloyd]

How can you? Paul Murphy and the like genuinely don't understand how or why Greece owes what it does. He's calling for a default not realising it's the rest of the EU that's on the hook. And he has no interest in trying to grasp the situation. It's like they believe it's all a giant neoliberal conspiracy.

Well I think I understand a little about the situation and think a default is the clear option in the long term. The size of their economy in comparison to the amount they owe is ridiculous. They never should have been lent that much money and I think it's unrealistic that they'll ever pay it back without significant social hardship.

I think we'd all be better served by looking to resolve this issue. I think a third bailout program will simply produce an ever bigger crisis in two year's time.

[RichieM]

Where does it leave us if FG supporters reject the idea that a minister should he held accountable for serious abuses of power and manipulation but cry foul about how protests that have yet to see any significant violence or damage to property are "sinister", etc.

There's stupidity and entrenchment on all sides. I believe people have the right to protest and unfortunately I believe effective protest involves disruption to some degree, whether that be blocking a road or vehicle for a few hours. The people engaging in these protests are a minority, but obviously an aggrieved minority. So long as they are batted away by being labelled sinister, violent and scumbags they will have no motivation to stop or scale back their behaviour.

No one is seriously engaging on either side at present.

So you believe that throwing bottles at police as part of a protest is not even sinister just cool enough and part of politics?

[LuckyLloyd]

So you believe that throwing bottles at police as part of a protest is not even sinister just cool enough and part of politics?

I think throwing a couple of bottles is terribly mild in comparison to the type of anti austerity protests witnessed around Europe during the past half decade or so.

[Raoul Duke III]

Shatter was a reckless authoritarian with a blatant disregard for due process. He certainly got the job done

You just described every successful private sector manager.

[AndyFatBastard]

The numbers are all conflated so it's quite tough.

We're down for about €2.7bn though.


About €600 per head of every Irish person. Or 4 years of water charges (after conservation grant).

Do you have a good source for this? A friend of mine needs to see it.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[LuckyLloyd]

I'm not trolling. I just disagree with you on some topics.

[Raoul Duke III]

Neverminding Lloyd's trolling, I think a default is the only sensible approach in Greece's interests, assuming they can't get a debt write off.

Write off about 50% of their debt and they have a decent chance of not fucking up another bailout, but with no debt write off it would be the height of lunacy for them to vote themselves into a generation of servitude*. Default is short-term carnage, but sorts itself out in about six months after a default. Whereas unsustainable debt is with you for much much longer.


* which is of course why they'll vote yes!

The cognitive dissonance between their pro-Euro\anti-austerity stances is a joy to behold.

Simply put, if you want in, you gotta pay the admission fees.

[Emmet]

Well I think I understand a little about the situation and think a default is the clear option in the long term. The size of their economy in comparison to the amount they owe is ridiculous. They never should have been lent that much money and I think it's unrealistic that they'll ever pay it back without significant social hardship.

I think we'd all be better served by looking to resolve this issue. I think a third bailout program will simply produce an ever bigger crisis in two year's time.

Paying taxes classes as a social hardship?
Article regarding how low the tax take was 5 years ago
5 years later we're here

“Even with a low estimate of the amount lost – say €5bn a year – you can see that if we’d been able to collect €5bn more over the past 12 years, that would make €60bn. In other words there would be no debt problem,” says Tryfon Alexiadis, deputy head of the tax collectors’ union, close to Tsipras’s Syriza party.

The previous govt made a whopper mistake when they tried to meet the targets, they decided to freeze and cut spending wholly, and not increase their incomes. They're still not paying enough to provide the barebones economy that they're currently running. None of this is solved, not even one little tiny piece of it is solved by anything to do with debt relief (other than they can then get more debt!).

Ireland's obligations to their debt is larger as a % of GDP than Greece

The headline "Greece has unsustainable debt" is a fantastic catch all. But there's been very little payment of any bailout debt at all yet! How can they blame the debt payments that haven't been made for the situation?

At some stage, realism must be approached. The pragmatic no-humanity solution would be to impose extraordinarily stringent tax policies with non-cash penalties.

The debt isn't choking Greece, Greeks' aversion to social contributions are choking Greece.

[Emmet]

Do you have a good source for this? A friend of mine needs to see it.

nope, taking the poster quoted at face value as have no reason not to at this stage.

[Raoul Duke III]

The debt isn't choking Greece, Greeks' aversion to social contributions are choking Greece.

Yes but it's much more fun to blame ze Germans, IMF, lizard monsters from space....

[Emmet]

Anyone got a FT account? Can they copy/paste some of the stuff from this in here?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6e5532c0-a...44feab7de.html

Maybe if I link it like this it might work?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HAGoxVLZmg4J:www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6e5532c0-a310-11e4-ac1c-00144feab7de.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk#axzz3ejgmPrBA

These facts are not the ones you're looking for, but they're still facts.

[Emmet]

Neverminding Lloyd's trolling, I think a default is the only sensible approach in Greece's interests, assuming they can't get a debt write off.

Write off about 50% of their debt and they have a decent chance of not fucking up another bailout, but with no debt write off it would be the height of lunacy for them to vote themselves into a generation of servitude*. Default is short-term carnage, but sorts itself out in about six months after a default. Whereas unsustainable debt is with you for much much longer.


* which is of course why they'll vote yes!

Why do you think this?!

That's exactly what they tried last time!

As part of that plan, it was proposed that all owners of Greek governmental bonds should "voluntarily" accept a 50% haircut of their bonds (resulting in a debt reduction worth €100bn), and moreover accept interest rates being reduced to only 3.5%.

[RichieM]

Fair enough Lloyd I would say that it falls into a category above sinister and menacing but I guess you will be cool if it happ be outside you office and just have a laugh. In terms of severity setting a child on fire is worse than punching a child in the face - neither are cool tho and neither are peaceful.

Obviously Greece can't pay back their debt was it stands. they may well need a write down but not making sure they reorganise their country first so they can pay the rest back would be pretty stupid since they ran at a loss even when times were good. Thy were close to being able to deal with their debt at one stage.

The Greek "democratic"way of life is not feasible clearly and some social reform is needed. It is not unreasonable to only lend money to those who can repay it. I

The idea that we can expect any matching write off to Greece is also nuts. We have shown we can pay, we have done the hard part of starting to pay and our economy is growing. Why would tax payers of other eu countries decide that we did a great job and they really don't want the money back to build hospitals etc.
Crazy to think of default or write downs now. Might have been an option before we picked ourselves up.

[Jibzzzz]

HYPE HYPE HYPE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6L1aQbu8iQ

Dam I can't even embed embedded.

[ArmaniJeans]

Hoards of 40/50 year old people going around town in AC/DC shirts, profoundly pathetic get up for someone of that age.

WP, you got a nice haul with this, still the master.

[ArmaniJeans]

HYPE HYPE HYPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6L1aQbu8iQ

Dam I can't even embed embedded.

Drop the s from https.
I've suggested to my development team leader 5starpool that we change it such that http & https work identically, but he hasn't been able to get it done yet.

[dobby]

Drop the s from https.
I've suggested to my development team leader 5starpool that we change it such that http & https work identically, but he hasn't been able to get it done yet.

Can you get the team to have a look for something that makes the YouTube videos work on a phone. White Samsung. Android. Can never play videos posted here.

[The Aul Switcharoo]

Can you get the team to have a look for something that makes the YouTube videos work on a phone. White Samsung. Android. Can never play videos posted here.

Ye have internet in kerry?

[careca]

Ye have internet in kerry?

No, still no access in 90% of areas

SPOILER

Say nothing Dobby or the Waterford crowd will start coming on their hols

[Denny Crane]

Well I think I understand a little about the situation and think a default is the clear option in the long term. The size of their economy in comparison to the amount they owe is ridiculous. They never should have been lent that much money and I think it's unrealistic that they'll ever pay it back without significant social hardship.

I think we'd all be better served by looking to resolve this issue. I think a third bailout program will simply produce an ever bigger crisis in two year's time.

Greece hasn't balanced a budget in forty years, not even in the boom times. Far from Troika tyranny, they're the only thing that's kept the lights on in Greece on the last few years. This default that Irish supporters are calling for involves the rest of Europe picking up Greece's tab for the last few decades. I just can't see how that's the "fair" option, or how anyone with a modicum of sense believes this narrative about the evil institutions suppressing Greece. Either live within your means or GTFO but don't look for everyone else in Europe to keep paying for you.

[LuckyLloyd]

Emmett: have they demonstrated any ability to turn their society around to the necessary extent to service their debts? The character and structure of a nation should obviously factor into the equation when lending then €300b plus, no?

[LuckyLloyd]

Greece hasn't balanced a budget in forty years, not even in the boom times. Far from Troika tyranny, they're the only thing that's kept the lights on in Greece on the last few years. This default that Irish supporters are calling for involves the rest of Europe picking up Greece's tab for the last few decades. I just can't see how that's the "fair" option, or how anyone with a modicum of sense believes this narrative about the evil institutions suppressing Greece. Either live within your means or GTFO but don't look for everyone else in Europe to keep paying for you.

Not saying for a single second that institutions are "evil" etc on this. Greece is a failed society but wishing for them to be good Europeans is pointless imo, they lack the societal will to do what needs to be done.

[Emmet]

Emmett: have they demonstrated any ability to turn their society around to the necessary extent to service their debts?

Lloyd, no. That's the issue. Not the debt. The debt is not an issue. Not sure why people keep saying so.

The character and structure of a nation should obviously factor into the equation when lending then €300b plus, no?

Get out of that garden. Reckless lenders is it?

Recall that people are demanding that the lenders lend them more money with less impositions!

[Denny Crane]

I was trying to quote a tweet there but it didn't work. There's no engaging with someone with this viewpoint.

An #Oxi on Sunday is an #Oxi for the 99% in Europe. Against austerity, Troika tyranny and debt slavery. For a Europe of the 99%.

[LuckyLloyd]

I am NOT asking them to be lent more money. I am arguing that as an orderly a default and EU exit as possible be arranged.

[Emmet]

I am NOT asking them to be lent more money. I am arguing that as an orderly a default and EU exit as possible be arranged.

Explain what that solves.

[Emmet]

The armed forces ensure stability within the country.

good lad

Meanwhile, the referendum website (clearly very independent ) is up and running

http://www.referendum2015gov.gr/en/

[CHDad]

With all the Greece debating dominating BBV does that mean the XL Bacon Double Cheese Burger was the clear king of burgers?

[Denny Crane]

I am NOT asking them to be lent more money. I am arguing that as an orderly a default and EU exit as possible be arranged.

Dine and dash?

[pokerhand]

With all the Greece debating dominating BBV does that mean the XL Bacon Double Cheese Burger was the clear king of burgers?

Whoa.... King of fast food burgers, not burgers in general. Separate argument and that wouldn't be in contention for the overall title.

[Denny Crane]

Jaysus, backed this at 5/4 yesterday

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/european-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=1989977

[Guest]

I see Tiger is definitely back this time. Got shot at going -3 after 7, one off the lead.

[Guest]

Putting my Rasta hat on for a sec, homemade burgers >>>>> anything you are ever getting in a resteraunt. So piss easy to make, whack them in a bun with with some blue cheese and tomatoes and you are done. One of those things it is pointless ordering in a resteraunt because you will do a far better job yourself even if you are the type of person who struggles to cook an egg (the other being steak,I never order it in a resteraunt anymore pointless.

[tylerdurden94]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlMTn_Jzok