Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - BabyforV

[Strewelpeter]

You're missing one serious element of DO'B's position - his deep ties with FG.

Ah come on!

s not a normal bank. It is political to its core. It controls, along with NAMA, huge assets with massive potential for profit. How they are disposed of and how the debts held by the State (and it is held by the State no matter how you paint it) are dealt with when it comes to the most influential and powerful among us is a matter of public interest without question.

How on earth can you possibly think otherwise?

Why are you conflating IBRC and NAMA?

So are you saying that all transactions, accounts and arrangements entered into by both entities should be fully open for public scrutiny, or is it just DOB you mean ?
Your judgement that he is the most influential and powerful person amongst us is a subjective opinion, It is probably a wrong opinion.
why does having substantial business interests afford him less rights than any other citizen?

[Kayroo]

I put it better earlier
What right to reply do they have anyway? Can you ask to go before a Dail Committee?
Writing letters to the IT or calling Joe?
What use is that to someone who has their good name slandered on the public record for cheap electioneering.

I should say I completely agree that the Dail Privileges Committee should be given teeth to actually fucking deal with this stuff but it treads a pretty dangerous line. The best thing to do is just suck it up and let them all say what they like with impunity.

Also @Hitch: you're dead right, it's really beyond the realm of possibility for a rich man to seek to increase his wealth through dubious means. That has literally never happened. How silly of me.

[Strewelpeter]

OK O'Toole is explaining it for you... the privacy line gets drawn wherever the Politburo says it is drawn.

GTFO

[Strewelpeter]

I should say I completely agree that the Dail Privileges Committee should be given teeth to actually fucking deal with this stuff but it treads a pretty dangerous line. The best thing to do is just suck it up and let them all say what they like with impunity.

I agree, its a real dangerous and very fine line but I genuinely believe that Murphy, by not even waiting for the judgement to be published (in case she would lose her cheap electioneering IMO) has compounded a very real issue brought on in particular by Mary Lou's antics.

[Kayroo]

Why are you conflating IBRC and NAMA?

I'm not actually conflating them I'm stating that between them they control a huge amount of assets. Also there is a direct overlap between them in certain respects

So are you saying that all transactions, accounts and arrangements entered into by both entities should be fully open for public scrutiny, or is it just DOB you mean ?

IBRC is subject to public scrutiny to a certain extent and it should be even more open. That's why Judge O'Neill was appointed to investigate the conflicts of interest created by KPMG's involvement.

Your judgement that he is the most influential and powerful person amongst us is a subjective opinion, It is probably a wrong opinion.

I was using the term in the general sense, implying DO'B is one of the most powerful and influential, which is patently correct.

why does having substantial business interests afford him less rights than any other citizen?

It doesn't. Any citizen who tenders for State work has to go through a public tender. Any citizen who does State work is subject to withholding tax. Any citizen who runs for public office is subject to the SIPO. We place enormous safe guards in place when we deal with public money and the public confidence in procedure to ensure it isn't abused or gifted through personal connections because we're fighting a legacy of how that was done in the past. But when someone with serious power gets a sweetheart deal from a State controlled financial entity that's totally private and beyond scrutiny?? All I am arguing for is the application of an ideal we already have across the board.

[Wombatman]

Halt and Catch Fire is back.

[Strewelpeter]

It doesn't. Any citizen who tenders for State work has to go through a public tender. Any citizen who does State work is subject to withholding tax. Any citizen who runs for public office is subject to the SIPO.

As it should be.

We place enormous safe guards in place when we deal with public money and the public confidence in procedure to ensure it isn't abused or gifted through personal connections because we're fighting a legacy of how that was done in the past.

Indeed, I agree 100%

But when someone with serious power gets a sweetheart deal from a State controlled financial entity that's totally private and beyond scrutiny?? All I am arguing for is the application of an ideal we already have across the board.

I'd go further anyone who gets a sweetheart deal from the state should be open to scrutiny.
The problem is that this is not the state it is a state owned bank that is subject to the rules of banking.
I'm not saying that anyone should be beyond scrutiny but we cannot just set up a whole new set of rules for DOB because someone uses Dail privilege to make unsubstantiated allegations against him.

The courts felt there was enough wrong with the RTE report to issue the injunction, if that was overturned and there was found to be something substantially dodgy about the arrangements eh has in place then enquire away and put anyone who has done wrong in jail.
I'm as aware as anyone of how tough a dealer DOB is and I am all for a corruption free business environment but so far I haven't seen anything in SiteServ or this IRBC kerfuffle that causes me any great concern or strikes me as any more than a lot of hot air by the people who brought us the concept of free un-metered water for all being a basic human right

[Raoul Duke III]

I don't agree, 500 Million that is not in default in the context of the times is not an exceptional bit of business with a man whose companies employ so many people in Ireland.

O'Toole does't explain it so maybe you can, what is it exactly that makes him so special that he is not to be afforded the same rights as other citizens?
Is it that he owns some media interests here or perhaps it its his interest in SiteServ that has the rabble foaming at the mouth?

Probably the fact that he bribed his way to his jnitial fortune and got away with it. Fuck him.

[Kayroo]

The courts felt there was enough wrong with the RTE report to issue the injunction, if that was overturned and there was found to be something substantially dodgy about the arrangements eh has in place then enquire away and put anyone who has done wrong in jail.

Two things:

First, now who is ok with unsubstantiated claims? All we know is that the Court ruled RTE couldn't show that programme pending further proceedings. There might have been nothing wrong with it at all. The issue would have been whether the potential wrong done to his reputation and privacy if DO'B was right would have been greater than the harm in stopping the show being aired temporarily. Nothing about the ruling (which we still have no sight of) could possibly be used to imply RTE have done anything wrong - only that DO'B has alleged it and that pending a full hearing RTE shouldn't be allowed to air it.

IBRC aren't subject to the normal rules of banking. They literally have their own piece of legislation creating the special liquidator (Kieran Wallace of KPMG) and governing how they are run. They are by any measure a state entity at this point.

[Raoul Duke III]

IBRC is not a normal bank. It is political to its core. It controls, along with NAMA, huge assets with massive potential for profit. How they are disposed of and how the debts held by the State (and it is held by the State no matter how you paint it) are dealt with when it comes to the most influential and powerful among us is a matter of public interest without question.

Eh? IBRC barely exists any more and it's certainly not a 'bank', at least in any generally accepted sense.

Are you not thinking of NAMA?

[Strewelpeter]

Probably the fact that he bribed his way to his jnitial fortune and got away with it. Fuck him.

Well that at least is an honest opinion.

I always felt that Lowry sold himself so cheap that he must have been able to get much more from the others who were much more experienced in the ways of the world than DOB was at the time... What was it he got a football ground in the God forsaken north of England ?
I suspect Lowry gave up a lot of lucre and got caught out in a way he wouldn't have otherwise by rigging the sale in favour of the home team.

Sure it made DOB a billionare but IMO in the long run it has been a good deal for Ireland.

[Kayroo]

Eh? IBRC barely exists any more and it's certainly not a 'bank', at least in any generally accepted sense.

Are you not thinking of NAMA?

No, I was addressing Strewel's points. I completely agree it's not a bank and I was addressing NAMA with regard to the assets controlled and IBRC for liquidated debt really but I now fully accept I wasn't that clear about it.

[Solskjaer]

SP getting sidetracked on the day Chavball implodes. WP Kayroo keep him talking

[Strewelpeter]

now who is ok with unsubstantiated claims? All we know is that the Court ruled RTE couldn't show that programme pending further proceedings. There might have been nothing wrong with it at all. The issue would have been whether the potential wrong done to his reputation and privacy if DO'B was right would have been greater than the harm in stopping the show being aired temporarily. Nothing about the ruling (which we still have no sight of) could possibly be used to imply RTE have done anything wrong - only that DO'B has alleged it and that pending a full hearing RTE shouldn't be allowed to air it.

I'm not making any claims, I am leaving it to the court to decide if there is enough in the allegations to make it worth breaching his privacy.
I trust the courts to make the correct decision even if it would be on appeal.

We are a bit of a mess in how we deal with this kind of thing.
In the UK this kind of mud gets flung at the wall in forums like Private Eye and if there is enough substance to the allegations thy will gather enough momentum there to be dealt with properly and if not they just get ignored.


there to it it wil get a

[Jam-Fly]

Saw a badger. They are big cunts. Mind is kinda blown.

Serious urge to watch animals of farthing wood again now.

I had the exact same reaction the first time I saw a real life badger, the fuckers are huge. TV and cartoons seem to give the impression they're smaller.

[Jam-Fly]

On another note, if anyone knows any talented soccer players (around League of Ireland u19 level) doing their Leaving Cert this year that might be interested in coming to UL next year, feel free to get in touch.

[Guest]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3224...conomy-by-2025

I might get away with never learning how to drive.

Must pull this article up in 10 years for a good laugh.the author needs help.

[Guest]

I give tonight round to Kayroo/Lloyd. SP struggling manfully Hitch is on the ropes

[Opr]

Must pull this article up in 10 years for a good laugh.the author needs help.

I thought his is a pretty commonly held view from industry experts within transport. I have watched and read numerous things over the last year which have been saying similar things to that article. Embedded electronics is taking over the world and the transport sector is at the forefront of that. If someone explained your smartphone to you 10 years ago they would sound far more nuts than the guy who wrote that article.

Opr

[Guest]

I thought his is a pretty commonly held view from industry experts within transport. I have watched and read numerous things over the last year which have been saying similar things to that article. Embedded electronics is taking over the world and the transport sector is at the forefront of that. If someone explained your smartphone to you 10 years ago they would sound far more nuts than the guy who wrote that article.

Opr

No doubt most of what's in his article will come to pass. Not in ten years though

[Strewelpeter]

Eh? IBRC barely exists any more and it's certainly not a 'bank', at least in any generally accepted sense.

Are you not thinking of NAMA?

It was, it is and it will remain so for some time according to Dukes.
His comments on VINB are the most enlightening and straightforward I've heard on the matter since it blew up.

[Guest]

Love the way these tech-evangelists just breeze over the job losses - because the disruption will create ' new opportunities '. All nice and vague. Feudalism 2.0 here we come

[Kayroo]

I'm not making any claims, I am leaving it to the court to decide if there is enough in the allegations to make it worth breaching his privacy.
I trust the courts to make the correct decision even if it would be on appeal.

We are a bit of a mess in how we deal with this kind of thing.
In the UK this kind of mud gets flung at the wall in forums like Private Eye and if there is enough substance to the allegations thy will gather enough momentum there to be dealt with properly and if not they just get ignored.


there to it it wil get a

Now I know you're just trolling me

[hotspur]

First they came for Sepp and I did not speak out because I was not a high ranking FIFA official getting millions in bribes and corruption, then they came for Denis...

RDIII is right. It's getting so a fella can't hardly get ahead in this world at all. There's always some working class rabble with chips on their shoulders because someone had more gumption than their taxi driving fathers and whore mothers to make something of themselves. God be with the time they had religion to shut them up. Islamophobia and iPhones are good, but not quite cutting it.

[Opr]

No doubt most of what's in his article will come to pass. Not in ten years though

Many believe that technology advancements like this will happen so rapidly because of huge increase in being able to adapt to technology by greater amounts of people. This generation in large part has grown up within the tech boom. They aren't afraid of technology, instead they welcome it and will have a far easier time adapting than previous generations. They already have working autonomous mines in Australia. Technology to make this stuff happen isn't going to be a problem and 10 years I think is a lifetime for this kind of tech overhaul once the technology is actually available already.

Opr

[Tar.Aldarion]

Anybody have any good statistics on whether door-knocking is effective or not, from selling things, to canvassing, to Jehovah witnesses conversion etc?

[CHDad]

Anybody have any good statistics on whether door-knocking is effective or not, from selling things, to canvassing, to Jehovah witnesses conversion etc?

95% of the time the person knocking is an overexcited cunt.

[The Situation]

Cleaner came over today full of the joys and decided to unprovokingly fill me in on her daily struggles, from rising at 05:30 to balance caring for her cancer ridden husband, to looking after her two young children as well as working two jobs to fund it all. Not sure what her motive behind telling me this, probably just blowing off steam. Must say I felt the slightest pang of guilt after hearing it all, especially as my physical exertions up to that point in the day was a leisurely stroll to the local shop for a breakfast roll.
So I dug deep to find the good natured person within and decided to let her shoot off 5 mins early. The "above and beyond" gesture was further extended as I helped her down the stairs of the complex with her hoover, she strode down them steps with the kinda renewed vigour of someone who now had a bit of time on their hands. That was until we got outside and realised that her car had been clamped🙈. Some peoples get all the luck.

[Denny Crane]

I had the exact same reaction the first time I saw a real life badger, the fuckers are huge. TV and cartoons seem to give the impression they're smaller.

Foxes on the other hand are surprisingly small.

[Lord Sir Banter]

ah lads

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Lord Sir Banter]

That's what I say every time someone talks about the sewage system as one of the key progress things that makes big cities possible

Does that happen often m8?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Emmet]

What avenues of recourse would there be if a TD said something slanderous under Dáil privilege?

"I have it on good authority that Mr A is a paedophile"

What happens?

[Raoul Duke III]

What avenues of recourse would there be if a TD said something slanderous under Dáil privilege?

"I have it on good authority that Mr A is a paedophile"

What happens?

The perfect solution would be to reintroduce legal duelling.

[Emmet]

Also, if anyone could answer these questions I had about IBRC that'd be great.

Why is/was IBRC still offering/extending loans?

Could/should it not be aiming to wind itself up asap? And so DOB should have been forced to raise the amount through a loan from another company to repay IBRC instead of extending it?

Or have I completely misunderstood what's going on at IBRC?

[Guest]

That's what I say every time someone talks about the sewage system as one of the key progress things that makes big cities possible: no one ever things of the job losses of the dudes who, before that, used to come around your house and shovel the housesholds shit into a large vat and cart it away.

The sum total of all technology has been to vastly create jobs rather than destroy them.

Can't wait to see you try to maintain this optimistic world view when they unveil the EconomoProfBot3000.

[Kayroo]

What avenues of recourse would there be if a TD said something slanderous under Dáil privilege?

"I have it on good authority that Mr A is a paedophile"

What happens?

Nothing whatsoever. Although they may get a jolly good telling off by the Privileges Committee

[Strewelpeter]

Also, if anyone could answer these questions I had about IBRC that'd be great.

Why is/was IBRC still offering/extending loans?

Could/should it not be aiming to wind itself up asap? And so DOB should have been forced to raise the amount through a loan from another company to repay IBRC instead of extending it?

Or have I completely misunderstood what's going on at IBRC?

According to Dukes IBRC was operating as a bank until the liquidation in 2013 and the board continue to have responsibilities for the previous operations until whenever the liquidation is completed.
When they were operating their mandate was to wind it down and gain the maximum return for the stakeholders.

If you think about it when trying to offload a bundle of loans having a fully performing 500 Million with DOB as the lipstick on the pig ugly face of a bundle of golf courses and derelict sites in Dublin would have been something you'd be very keen to hang on to.

[Lazare]

People defending DO'B need to view his actions through the entire prism of their moral compasses.

Maybe imagine him as his equivalence. A packed Aviva stadium, stands and pitch of dole cheats. Or, every single driver of every car currently on the roads dodging car tax.

That's what swindling €30m looks like.

[eamonhonda]

[Emmet]

Nothing whatsoever. Although they may get a jolly good telling off by the Privileges Committee

Repeated 'offences' or 'utterances' the same I suppose?

edit, found this

REPORT of the
COMMITTEE on PROCEDURE and PRIVILEGES
on
Utterances made by Deputy Mary Lou McDonald in Dáil
Éireann on 3rd December 2014

[bohsman]

If we have the right to know about DOB should we not have access to the accounts of all business and political leaders... why not journalists and website owners when we are at it.

I don't necessarily think that we have a right to know the individuals involved other than that people linked to the government were giving favourable loans to people who have made their fortunes through far too close ties to the same party. Maybe we should just trust that Irish politics are as clean as ever with their good track record.

[Strewelpeter]

People defending DO'B need to view his actions through the entire prism of their moral compasses.

Maybe imagine him as his equivalence. A packed Aviva stadium, stands and pitch of dole cheats. Or, every single driver of every car currently on the roads dodging car tax.

That's what swindling €30m looks like.

I'm not in the business of defending DOB. I want to defend all citizens right to privacy and am trying to figure out why DOB should have less rights than anyone else. I'm also questioning what we are to do about the use of parliamentary privilege as a blank cheque for making unsubstantiated allegations for electoral advantage.

But what do you mean about swindling €30m what did he do If he swindled 30 Million he belongs in jail, simple as that.

[Emmet]

People defending DO'B need to view his actions through the entire prism of their moral compasses.

Maybe imagine him as his equivalence. A packed Aviva stadium, stands and pitch of dole cheats. Or, every single driver of every car currently on the roads dodging car tax.

That's what swindling €30m looks like.

I'm not in any way defending O'Brien, but that's > 30x €30m https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV#
(approx €1.1bn raised through Motor Tax)

It's also a silly number to ascribe to the situation. We have a rate of 7.5% thrown at us, which is not the market rate. We don't know the market rate in all reality.
I do not doubt that O'Brien could well have managed to get a better deal than he could have elsewhere, however, I would be incredibly surprised if he'd be charged anywhere near this headline number.

There certainly appears to be a story here, but the facts should lead the story.

[Strewelpeter]

I don't necessarily think that we have a right to know the individuals involved other than that people linked to the government were giving favourable loans to people who have made their fortunes through far too close ties to the same party. Maybe we should just trust that Irish politics are as clean as ever with their good track record.

So who decides what is too close ties
Look the Moriarity report is sitting on a shelf, if there is something that someone needs to be prosecuted for then prosecute them but we cannot have different eules for people who are subject to different levels of inneuendo.

IBRC was owned by the Government but it was being run by Dukes and Aynsley. If you want to make accusations about their motives or behaviour there is a conspiracy forum over on boards where there are plenty of people keen to listen.

Maybe we should just trust that Irish politics are as clean as ever with their good track record.

You make a good point. We are currently standing 17th of 175 countries on the global corruption index. Lots of room to improve but we could be doing an awful lot worse.

[Lazare]

I'm not in any way defending O'Brien, but that's > 30x €30m https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV#
(approx €1.1bn raised through Motor Tax)

It's also a silly number to ascribe to the situation. We have a rate of 7.5% thrown at us, which is not the market rate. We don't know the market rate in all reality.
I do not doubt that O'Brien could well have managed to get a better deal than he could have elsewhere, however, I would be incredibly surprised if he'd be charged anywhere near this headline number.

There certainly appears to be a story here, but the facts should lead the story.

I meant cars currently on the road, as in, physically driving at the current moment. I wouldn't imagine it's too far off the mark. Anyway, whether it's wide of the mark or not, my point was this. The same people who come down heavy (rightly so btw) on these individuals are happy to give DO'B a pass. I find that strange.

[Lazare]

I'm not in the business of defending DOB. I want to defend all citizens right to privacy and am trying to figure out why DOB should have less rights than anyone else. I'm also questioning what we are to do about the use of parliamentary privilege as a blank cheque for making unsubstantiated allegations for electoral advantage.

But what do you mean about swindling €30m what did he do If he swindled 30 Million he belongs in jail, simple as that.

If I dodge paying my car tax, which I've done, and which I've rightly received criticism for, I'm pretty sure you would class that as swindling the exchequer. If I dodge paying 100,000 times that amount, you'll defend me.

That not a bit weird?

[Strewelpeter]

The same people who come down heavy (rightly so btw) on these individuals are happy to give DO'B a pass. I find that strange.

Well you must be talking about me because there is no one else here running against the herd.

So please, where did I say anything remotely resembling 'wanting to give him a pass'?
You state that he swindled €30M can you explain what that refers to?

Edit

If I dodge paying my car tax, which I've done, and which I've rightly received criticism for, I'm pretty sure you would class that as swindling the exchequer. If I dodge paying 100,000 times that amount, you'll defend me.

That not a bit weird?

Ah ok you are just trolling me

[AndyFatBastard]

Rafa confirmed as Real Madrid manager. The fans will hate him.

[Lazare]

Well you must be talking about me because there is no one else here running against the herd.

So please, where did I say anything remotely resembling 'wanting to give him a pass'?
You state that he swindled €30M can you explain what that refers to?

Edit


Ah ok you are just trolling me

You obv have Hitch on ignore.

[CHDad]

Rafa confirmed as Real Madrid manager. The fans will hate him.

Football, bloody hell.

[Emmet]

I meant cars currently on the road, as in, physically driving at the current moment. I wouldn't imagine it's too far off the mark. Anyway, whether it's wide of the mark or not, my point was this. The same people who come down heavy (rightly so btw) on these individuals are happy to give DO'B a pass. I find that strange.

Not giving him a pass at all. If he's swindled cash, lets get him for it.

The right way.

The question is whether it's agreeable/permissible/fair to 'get him' in the manner that we're seeing.

If the Gardaí were lifting suspected thieves, who've had a few pints on a random Tuesday out of pubs and putting them in the front seat of a car in order to 'get them' I'd hope we would have an issue with that too.

[The Situation]

Rafa confirmed as Real Madrid manager. The fans will hate him.

He took over a title contending, Champions league competitive and really dynamic footballing side in Napoli, spent more than any other side while there, missed out on champions league qualification both seasons in a league lacking depth and made them a really boring watch. Top effort all in all and well deserved of his crack at Real.

[ionapaul]

Not giving him a pass at all. If he's swindled cash, lets get him for it.

The right way.

The question is whether it's agreeable/permissible/fair to 'get him' in the manner that we're seeing.

If the Gardaí were lifting suspected thieves, who've had a few pints on a random Tuesday out of pubs and putting them in the front seat of a car in order to 'get them' I'd hope we would have an issue with that too.

I suspect that anyone who is currently trying to 'get' DO'B, is going about it in the current manner precisely because they don't have any faith in the powers-that-be looking into his affairs, respectable or seemingly dodgy, as a result of the 'close ties' that he undoubtedly has with with the very same powers-that-be! Some people might believe that the 'right way' isn't something that will ever be used.

I can't make a call on what constitutes ties that are too close, but I don't think anyone in Irish society can hand-on-heart say that the relationship between DO'B and FG isn't a tad unsettling if looked at in the worst light OR that they've no problem with DO'B's control of the media AND his willingness to use heavy-handed tactics to silence his critics. I suppose no-one likes a bully, which is how he comes across, rightly or wrongly - painting himself as being bullied subsequently seems disingenuous

I'd consider myself a FG voter and I'm deeply unsettled with it all, to tell you the truth.

[CHDad]

[Raoul Duke III]

I suspect that anyone who is currently trying to 'get' DO'B, is going about it in the current manner precisely because they don't have any faith in the powers-that-be looking into his affairs, respectable or seemingly dodgy, as a result of the 'close ties' that he undoubtedly has with with the very same powers-that-be! Some people might believe that the 'right way' isn't something that will ever be used.

I can't make a call on what constitutes ties that are too close, but I don't think anyone in Irish society can hand-on-heart say that the relationship between DO'B and FG isn't a tad unsettling if looked at in the worst light OR that they've no problem with DO'B's control of the media AND his willingness to use heavy-handed tactics to silence his critics. I suppose no-one likes a bully, which is how he comes across, rightly or wrongly - painting himself as being bullied subsequently seems disingenuous

I'd consider myself a FG voter and I'm deeply unsettled with it all, to tell you the truth.

Every time I see a picture of DO'B, I automatically think of this guy:



My next thought is then 'fuck him'.

Fuck him.

[Iago]

I suspect that anyone who is currently trying to 'get' DO'B, is going about it in the current manner precisely because they don't have any faith in the powers-that-be looking into his affairs, respectable or seemingly dodgy, as a result of the 'close ties' that he undoubtedly has with with the very same powers-that-be! Some people might believe that the 'right way' isn't something that will ever be used.

I can't make a call on what constitutes ties that are too close, but I don't think anyone in Irish society can hand-on-heart say that the relationship between DO'B and FG isn't a tad unsettling if looked at in the worst light OR that they've no problem with DO'B's control of the media AND his willingness to use heavy-handed tactics to silence his critics. I suppose no-one likes a bully, which is how he comes across, rightly or wrongly - painting himself as being bullied subsequently seems disingenuous

I'd consider myself a FG voter and I'm deeply unsettled with it all, to tell you the truth.

Perhaps, but that doesn't make it right.

I was going to post a hypothetical scenario involving a rapist and a vigilante mob to make a point but that seems a tad melodramatic.

I'd be with Tony on this, if DO'B is guilty of something then we have laws and structures in place for him to be tried as such. People taking things into their own hands because "the right way" may never work is a very slippery slope to go down.

I'd also agree with Hitch and others re: 7.5% being a complete red herring in terms of commerical loan rates at that kind of volume and without knowing what the details of the loan were.

It's all a bit of a witch hunt and raises alarming questions in my mind as to the impunity with which certain people/factions are willing to completely circumvent the law in order to point out that someone allegedly circumvented the law

[Guest]

A guide to tax due dodging:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4o13isDdfY