Is that not intuitive? Your ability to pay >>>> whatever valuation has been put on your PDH.
My point was just questioning the sanity of Mr and Mrs 70k using their savings and several years gross salary to buy a 'two up two down' in Dublin 8. When for the 1.4k pm they could rent a decent apartment in town. Obv they're missing out on 'getting on the ladder' and having a 'starter home' but they're also missing out on the commute and buying a big illiquid asset in a deflationary cycle.
Not that I disagree or anything but what is the argument for renting over buying for life when a person or couple retire and have to still pay rent?
Instead of putting money into 'building equity' they save/invest/fill up their pension and put money into assets with higher returns than property (also saving on stamp duty/property tax). And then use that to cover their rent.
Tbh most people are probably better off with the forced saving nature of a mortgage, even if it costs more.
Is that not intuitive? Your ability to pay >>>> whatever valuation has been put on your PDH.
My point was just questioning the sanity of Mr and Mrs 70k using their savings and several years gross salary to buy a 'two up two down' in Dublin 8. When for the 1.4k pm they could rent a decent apartment in town. Obv they're missing out on 'getting on the ladder' and having a 'starter home' but they're also missing out on the commute and buying a big illiquid asset in a deflationary cycle.
Not that I disagree or anything but what is the argument for renting over buying for life when a person or couple retire and have to still pay rent?
Come to the dinner tomorrow night and we'll bore you to death about it
It's not black and white, especially when it comes to housing. I think generally the point being made is that during the boom people were entering into 25-35 year financial commitments with the thought that when they were ready to move on they would just sell the property and make a profit.
Rather than equate the property with the term of the loan, i.e. this is somewhere I really want to live and I'll still want to in 25 years, they were instead looking to "get on the ladder" so that they could trade up a later point. It was all predicated on property prices always increasing and therefore the relative value paid at the time as well as the inconvenience of not being exactly what you wanted, or indeed where you wanted, was ok because it was just a means of eventually trading up from an equity standpoint. As it turns out, this was foolish for a number of reasons.
In the example you propose the hope would be that the retired couple will have managed to accumulate enough liquid assets combined with investment returns to enable them to comfortably cover their rent without having to massively impact their quality of life and remaining funds.
It's all shades of grey though, and if the couple in the example from Denny have say €60k to invest the real question is can they get a better return on their investment than deriving equity from a single property that they happen to be paying a mortgage on.
Instead of putting money into 'building equity' they save/invest/fill up their pension and put money into assets with higher returns than property (also saving on stamp duty/property tax). And then use that to cover their rent.
How do they do this if they're also paying rent every month which as they get older, have a family etc, size up, increases?
I'm not sure where I stand on it really but I do like the idea of owning a place outright at some stage, and don't like the idea of paying rent when I'm retired. I guess trying to build up a large deposit is the best way to do it.
How do they do this if they're also paying rent every month which as they get older, have a family etc, size up, increases?
I'm not sure where I stand on it really but I do like the idea of owning a place outright at some stage, and don't like the idea of paying rent when I'm retired. I guess trying to build up a large deposit is the best way to do it.
I saw a breakdown before on reddit where it was explaining why a millionaire was still getting mortgages in the US. If you have all the cash to buy a house then you should still get a mortgage was the result, as they outlined higher returns you could use the cash on to make more than the fees of paying a mortgage. Same deal applies for renting I guess, if people know how to use their money it is better spent investing (note I do not know how to do this)
How do they do this if they're also paying rent every month which as they get older, have a family etc, size up, increases?
I'm not sure where I stand on it really but I do like the idea of owning a place outright at some stage, and don't like the idea of paying rent when I'm retired. I guess trying to build up a large deposit is the best way to do it.
IMO the theory depends on renting being a significantly cheaper option with at least some other advantages which is simply not the case in Ireland. Infact the opposite is true.
The only advantage the people selling the renting > buying ever quote is the absence of a commute as if the only reason people choose to live outside the city center is cost of property
Originally posted by Denny Crane
Instead of putting money into 'building equity' they save/invest/fill up their pension and put money into assets with higher returns than property (also saving on stamp duty/property tax). And then use that to cover their rent. into the pockets of sharp talkers witih impactful ties
FYP
Originally posted by Denny Crane
Tbh most people are probably better off with the forced saving nature of a mortgage, even if it costs more.
This.
TBH for once I'm more inclined towards Jack O'Connors thinking on this. I can go along with this being a prudential thing to do but if it has the effect of preventing people on the average industrial wage from buying properties then the long term effects on costs and society will be negative.
You can generally rent for less than what the mortgage costs (mortgage would cost 1400 for that house, can't find a similar rental but would have to assume it doesn't cost that based on other houses), you also have the headstart by not using your 50k for a deposit.
I'm obv biased on this as I'd still prefer the freedom of renting if all things were equal.
How do they do this if they're also paying rent every month which as they get older, have a family etc, size up, increases?
I'm not sure where I stand on it really but I do like the idea of owning a place outright at some stage, and don't like the idea of paying rent when I'm retired. I guess trying to build up a large deposit is the best way to do it.
It's a good question and gets to the nub of why it's not black and white imo but there are a few ways of looking at it.
Having a mortgage means that in theory you have your own place and security, and in theory you are also increasing the equity that your money has bought you by paying down your loan every month. In theory because you don't actually own the place until the last payment is made, and you have no guarantee that the house will still be worth what you paid for it when you go to sell it (that works both ways obviously) It also means that if you have managed to get a deposit together, and let's say that deposit is €60k, you have to commit that money to the purchase of the house and no longer have access to it.
If you are renting, you're free to move to a lower rental property if you wish. You could decide that you'll spend a couple of years in a smaller place and pump the savings into an investment vehicle instead. So instead of paying a mortgage of €1.2k a month, you pay €800 a month for a smaller property that isn't as nice as the rental equivalent of the proposed mortgage.
That doesn't sound like a lot, but it's €5k a year, and it's added to your starting point of €60k which is compounding all of the time. You also don't have to pay for maintenance, which could be €3-4k a year, or property tax and management fees, another €1k a year.
Suddenly you have an extra €10k a year to play around with, and you can move if an opportunity comes up that suits you better/pays you more/tickles your fancy & not only that but that money that you still have can be used to invest in opportunities as they come up which could deliver significant growth above and beyond potential equity in a home**
Even if you rent a similar priced place, but you go more central to where you need to be you could save a couple of thousand a year on commuting/shopping/convenience and get that money working for you.
I'm not anti-mortgage by any means, but I think the unhealthy obsession of the Irish & UK people with home ownership leads us to make some very bad financial decisions
** or you could lose it all, which I'm guessing is why Denny made the point about a mortgage being a better option for many as it's almost a guaranteed savings scheme.
I saw a breakdown before on reddit where it was explaining why a millionaire was still getting mortgages in the US. If you have all the cash to buy a house then you should still get a mortgage was the result, as they outlined higher returns you could use the cash on to make more than the fees of paying a mortgage. Same deal applies for renting I guess, if people know how to use their money it is better spent investing (note I do not know how to do this)
Yeah I understand that element of it but as Denny said 99% of people are probably still better off just getting a mortgage. There's no guarantee that the other investments won't go tits up at some stage or stop offering the same returns. Managing a portfolio to provide the higher returns would also be expensive, time consuming, and as I said not guaranteed.
Yeah I understand that element of it but as Denny said 99% of people are probably still better off just getting a mortgage. There's no guarantee that the other investments won't go tits up at some stage or stop offering the same returns. Managing a portfolio to provide the higher returns would also be expensive, time consuming, and as I said not guaranteed.
I'd much rather take my chances on some cheap international trackers than bank several years gross salary on the Irish property market tbh!
If the government commit to doing something about the dearth of rental accommodation in Dublin then the CBI's measures will be great.
If the government fail to do anything - like releasing NAMA property to the market, penalising people for sitting on undeveloped sites etc - the rental market will probably get even worse than it is now.
The CBI have done the correct thing in terms of what power they have, if it goes tits up it's fully on the government IMO.
I saw a breakdown before on reddit where it was explaining why a millionaire was still getting mortgages in the US. If you have all the cash to buy a house then you should still get a mortgage was the result, as they outlined higher returns you could use the cash on to make more than the fees of paying a mortgage. Same deal applies for renting I guess, if people know how to use their money it is better spent investing (note I do not know how to do this)
With the current tracker mortgage rates in Ireland this is very true (albeit they aren't available to new buyers) but with my rate at 1.15% for example that's the cheapest money I'm ever going to get so rather than pay it down I've invested that money elsewhere.
Even the government savings bonds are paying more than that, and there's an argument to be made that anybody on a tracker mortgage is better off taking whatever equity they can get out of their home and throwing it into something like the government bonds with a view to paying it down once the rates change/bonds mature.
Of course in practice what happens is that people end up with rolexes, convertibles and speedboats and a massive mortgage that needs to be paid
Lol at saving money for retirement. Reckon if I make it as far as 68 mandatory euthanasia for the old will have been introduced. No pension burden and your grasping offspring get their inheritance in a timely manner.
Lol at saving money for retirement. Reckon if I make it as far as 68 mandatory euthanasia for the old will have been introduced. No pension burden and your grasping offspring get their inheritance in a timely manner.
With the current tracker mortgage rates in Ireland this is very true (albeit they aren't available to new buyers) but with my rate at 1.15% for example that's the cheapest money I'm ever going to get so rather than pay it down I've invested that money elsewhere.
Even the government savings bonds are paying more than that, and there's an argument to be made that anybody on a tracker mortgage is better off taking whatever equity they can get out of their home and throwing it into something like the government bonds with a view to paying it down once the rates change/bonds mature.
Of course in practice what happens is that people end up with rolexes, convertibles and speedboats and a massive mortgage that needs to be paid
whats the current bond rates/best options if someone had for example 50k cash they may not need access to for one year, a couple of years, 5 years?
Of course in practice what happens is that people end up with rolexes, convertibles and speedboats and a massive mortgage that needs to be paid
This is why a mortgage is better for most people. Renting long-term only works if you're putting aside the extra you're saving by not having a mortgage. In practice people aren't going to be as disciplined with their savings as they are in paying the mortgage.
with my rate at 1.15% for example that's the cheapest money I'm ever going to get so rather than pay it down I've invested that money elsewhere.
Let's assume you wanted to become debt free, despite having 1.15% loan. How do you define the size of writeoff the bank would need to give you to make it beneficial for you to write them a cheque for the balance of the loan there and then?
If your mortgage is at 4.5% but you're getting interest relief, is the effective rate lowered much? IE would you be better off investing elsewhere than paying off the mortgage?
Forgetting about the 50k savings for a minute, if I wanted to start saving 150 a month or so easiest to just throw it in a bank savings account or is there a better option?
Forgetting about the 50k savings for a minute, if I wanted to start saving 150 a month or so easiest to just throw it in a bank savings account or is there a better option?
...as long as the AIP was based on verified financial information, i.e. you actually gave your P60, bank statement etc to the bank. Not just an over-the-phone AIP.
This is idiotic no?
I have 60k more approval until April than i will have under the new rules.
Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To...View Post
Apologies for not being on for the last while. Had to work a few things out, plus look after my daughter by myself for two weeks.
Two things for anyone interested:
1. A massive eight interviews for the one job in France concluded today. Seemed to go really well. But who knows.
2. My wife's extreme volatility over Christmas, which my drinking exaggerated into so much more, ended up with us finding out that she is pregnant with our second kid.
As the Chinese curse says 'may you live in interesting times'
On a side note: the girls in this French uni are beyond model types. Jaysus.
If you are renting, you're free to move to a lower rental property if you wish. You could decide that you'll spend a couple of years in a smaller place and pump the savings into an investment vehicle instead. So instead of paying a mortgage of €1.2k a month, you pay €800 a month for a smaller property that isn't as nice as the rental equivalent of the proposed mortgage.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this only work if renting is cheaper than buying? Right now in Dublin a 2 bed apartment in D8 is ~€1200/month to rent, but you can buy one for €200k. If you've got a €40k deposit then a 35 year mortgage of €160k has repayments of ~€750/month. That's an absolutely massive difference.
OK you'd expect the prices to swing around a bit, and even 15 years is a pretty long time, but this looks like Dublin's landscape for the foreseeable future.
"I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this only work if renting is cheaper than buying? Right now in Dublin a 2 bed apartment in D8 is ~€1200/month to rent, but you can buy one for €200k. If you've got a €40k deposit then a 35 year mortgage of €160k has repayments of ~€750/month. That's an absolutely massive difference.
OK you'd expect the prices to swing around a bit, and even 15 years is a pretty long time, but this looks like Dublin's landscape for the foreseeable future.
Good example. So you're paying 14.5k in rent with no other meaningful costs.
On your mortgage you're paying 7k in interest in year one and 2k in capital in your example.
So on the face of it you're 7.5k better off versus renting in year one (I ignore the capital being paid off as that's effectively extra saving).
Now you must allow for the management fee (1-1.5k), the insurance costs and the annual maintenance costs. Say in total that costs 2.5k p.a. for an owner occupier.
You can only make a meagre return on your deposit in the bank so I ignore that at the minute!!
So buying the apartment at a point of all time low interest rates you are 5k p.a. better off and you have a 200k exposure to any rise or fall in the D8 apartment market.
The liquidity risk, the opportunity cost and the lack of flexibility this gives you is the trade off for the 5kp.a. saving - plus the potential for future rises or falls in your geared investment.
My gut sense is that it's about right at that level but at the "family home" end of the market the rents are still too low.
Btw as I said before rent should always cost more than buying in a proper functioning market. It was only in the boom when landlords were effectively speculators in property rather than investors that it was the other way around. I often told people my landlord was subsidising my accommodation costs at that time but very few understood what I was saying.
I rent a reasonably ok 3 bed in Rathgar. I Pay €1,300 a month for the privilege. I had a thought that I could surely buy a 2 bet apartment in Rathmines for €250k and the repayments on a 20yr mortgage would be the same as my current rent, I could live there for a few years whilst I thought about my options and then I could rent it to cover mortgage to infinity (give or take). I went and looked at what my 250k would get me and I got sick. I got sick because the same apartments are renting out at €1,400 per month and it was bloody tiny, there wasn't room to change your mind in the place. There is no paradise on city center or reasonably central rental at the moment. I am lucky that I am paying c.€200 under market rents on my current house. All of this prompted me to go ahead and get myself mortgage approved so I could have some sort of flexibility. It is a very specific circumstance. For some renting is the way forwards, for others buy the house and move on but I don't see rents being favorable in city center or nearby any time into the future, and by future I mean over the lifetime of any mortgage I lumber upon myself. So for me, at this point in my life I feel buying makes sense, somebody else can disagree. Its personal choice.
What value is the house you're living in Noel?? It's valuation would be significantly higher than the apartments you looked at so the rent should really be 2k or higher and yet it isn't nor is any other 3 bed house like it. Quite an anomaly really.
‘IF YOU had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.” Genghis Khan
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this only work if renting is cheaper than buying? Right now in Dublin a 2 bed apartment in D8 is ~€1200/month to rent, but you can buy one for €200k. If you've got a €40k deposit then a 35 year mortgage of €160k has repayments of ~€750/month. That's an absolutely massive difference.
OK you'd expect the prices to swing around a bit, and even 15 years is a pretty long time, but this looks like Dublin's landscape for the foreseeable future.
Let's take it at it's most basic. At the numbers you have quoted above the total cost of that apartment for your prospective buyer is
40,000 (deposit)
+ 160,000 (mortgage)
+ 155,000 (interest based on payments above)
+ 2,200 (stamp duty)
+ 10,000 (associated fees, furniture, etc)
+11,025 (property tax over 35 years)
+ 42,000 (management fees estimated at 1,200 per annum, probably a bit low to be fair)
After 35 years
IF interest rates don't go up
IF property tax doesn't increase
IF management fees don't increase
They'll have spent €420,525 on that apartment (without including replacing furniture, fittings, applicances etc) and they'll still be in a 2 bed apartment in Dublin 8 regardless of where they would like to live.
What if they lose their job?
What if interest rates go back to the norm of 7-8% instead of 3.5-4.75% as we see them now?
What if their needs change and they have to relocate or get a partner that works elsewhere or anything of that kind?
Your renter on the other hand is spending €1,200 a month, assuming that they are willing to pay so far above the odds rather than simply rent somewhere else in Dublin.
€420,525 will get you 350 months (a little over 29 years) of rent at that rate.
However if they were to also invest that initial €40k in a vehicle that paid say 4% a year and just left it there for the 29 years then they would have another €124,746 to contribute towards rent which would get them an additional 8.6 years or bring them to 37 years in total
Or they could invest the €40k and find somewhere cheaper to rent in the €750 bracket that is still relatively convienient to where they need to be while they maintain the freedom to move around and take advantage of opportunities
I rent a reasonably ok 3 bed in Rathgar. I Pay €1,300 a month for the privilege. I had a thought that I could surely buy a 2 bet apartment in Rathmines for €250k and the repayments on a 20yr mortgage would be the same as my current rent, I could live there for a few years whilst I thought about my options and then I could rent it to cover mortgage to infinity (give or take). I went and looked at what my 250k would get me and I got sick. I got sick because the same apartments are renting out at €1,400 per month and it was bloody tiny, there wasn't room to change your mind in the place. There is no paradise on city center or reasonably central rental at the moment. I am lucky that I am paying c.€200 under market rents on my current house. All of this prompted me to go ahead and get myself mortgage approved so I could have some sort of flexibility. It is a very specific circumstance. For some renting is the way forwards, for others buy the house and move on but I don't see rents being favorable in city center or nearby any time into the future, and by future I mean over the lifetime of any mortgage I lumber upon myself. So for me, at this point in my life I feel buying makes sense, somebody else can disagree. Its personal choice.
Friend of mine bought a gaff in Edenderry in late 2006 god knows why.
Has never lived there does not rent it out and its a ghost town.
Get a place there for 50k but why would you.
Most of the prime city locations are used up by people who dont pay any rent social housing.
Let's take it at it's most basic. At the numbers you have quoted above the total cost of that apartment for your prospective buyer is
40,000 (deposit)
+ 160,000 (mortgage)
+ 155,000 (interest based on payments above)
+ 2,200 (stamp duty)
+ 10,000 (associated fees, furniture, etc)
+11,025 (property tax over 35 years)
+ 42,000 (management fees estimated at 1,200 per annum, probably a bit low to be fair)
After 35 years
IF interest rates don't go up
IF property tax doesn't increase
IF management fees don't increase
They'll have spent €420,525 on that apartment (without including replacing furniture, fittings, applicances etc) and they'll still be in a 2 bed apartment in Dublin 8 regardless of where they would like to live.
What if they lose their job?
What if interest rates go back to the norm of 7-8% instead of 3.5-4.75% as we see them now?
What if their needs change and they have to relocate or get a partner that works elsewhere or anything of that kind?
Your renter on the other hand is spending €1,200 a month, assuming that they are willing to pay so far above the odds rather than simply rent somewhere else in Dublin.
€420,525 will get you 350 months (a little over 29 years) of rent at that rate.
However if they were to also invest that initial €40k in a vehicle that paid say 4% a year and just left it there for the 29 years then they would have another €124,746 to contribute towards rent which would get them an additional 8.6 years or bring them to 37 years in total
Or they could invest the €40k and find somewhere cheaper to rent in the €750 bracket that is still relatively convienient to where they need to be while they maintain the freedom to move around and take advantage of opportunities
But it does make sense to buy at that end of things if that's what you want. In particular if you take the view that your future career progression will allow you to buy a second home and rent this apt out to cover the mortgage at some point in the future as that way you'll have an asset and someone else paying the capital and interest for you.
The issue is that most people won't enjoy that sort of career progression and they may not wish to live in this apt for the long term. This is the lifestyle versus money bit and also the potential opportunity cost.
‘IF YOU had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.” Genghis Khan
according to property price register 2 similar houses in my estate sold in 2014 for €410k and €425k. One of them needed €30k spend to bring it up to same standard as mine (which isn't that high). It was basically the same as the day the person moved into it.
So you could potentially buy 2 apts yielding 1200 pm gross for close to the same price.
‘IF YOU had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.” Genghis Khan
But it does make sense to buy at that end of things if that's what you want. In particular if you take the view that your future career progression will allow you to buy a second home and rent this apt out to cover the mortgage at some point in the future as that way you'll have an asset and someone else paying the capital and interest for you.
The issue is that most people won't enjoy that sort of career progression and they may not wish to live in this apt for the long term. This is the lifestyle versus money bit and also the potential opportunity cost.
Well everything is down to personal preference of course, but it only makes financial sense if the rent is as skewed in the example. If you're a single guy, or even a young couple though are you really looking for a 2-bed apartment to rent? Would a 1-bed not do as well? If so you could reduce your rent down to €800-€900 a month and still be pretty central.
By the way, I don't think you're wrong, no more than I think I am As I said earlier, these decisions are all about the shades of grey.
If you're not going to use the extra money elsewhere as an investment then sure buy a property and generate equity(savings) that way, but there are less volatile ways to do it as well as keeping your lifestyle and opportunity cost intact.
edit: I think the bit in bold in key as well, for many people, the vast bulk of people in fact, career progression isn't tied into massive pay spikes. In a lot of industries that kind of money just isn't there. I also think it comes back to just being financially smart, if you are signing an agreement for 35 years make sure you have a plan to match it rather than a vague "it'll all work out"
Last edited by Iago; 28-01-15, 16:12.
Reason: clarification
What value is the house you're living in Noel?? It's valuation would be significantly higher than the apartments you looked at so the rent should really be 2k or higher and yet it isn't nor is any other 3 bed house like it. Quite an anomaly really.
Wonder how strong the rental market is for those kind of houses? People looking for those are much more likely to buy no? And owners are more likely to reluctant landlords than professionals?
Well everything is down to personal preference of course, but it only makes financial sense if the rent is as skewed in the example. If you're a single guy, or even a young couple though are you really looking for a 2-bed apartment to rent? Would a 1-bed not do as well? If so you could reduce your rent down to €800-€900 a month and still be pretty central.
By the way, I don't think you're wrong, no more than I think I am As I said earlier, these decisions are all about the shades of grey.
If you're not going to use the extra money elsewhere as an investment then sure buy a property and generate equity(savings) that way, but there are less volatile ways to do it as well as keeping your lifestyle and opportunity cost intact.
edit: I think the bit in bold in key as well, for many people, the vast bulk of people in fact, career progression isn't tied into massive pay spikes. In a lot of industries that kind of money just isn't there. I also think it comes back to just being financially smart, if you are signing an agreement for 35 years make sure you have a plan to match it rather than a vague "it'll all work out"
I think we're close to 95% agreed but it's not like it was a few years ago where I'd argue with people that it didn't make sense to buy across the board.
In certain individual circumstances it makes sense to buy now. And most people don't enjoy doing the financially optimal thing as much as they like having a plan revolving around being settled for life and knowing where they are going to be. Personally I enjoy the variety and find the staid/fixed plan stultifying but we're the odd ones Iago!
‘IF YOU had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.” Genghis Khan
One thing I like is the ability to up and go anywhere, be it a different part of a city or a different country, within a month or so. I love moving to a new place, learning the new area, even if it is nearby. I really couldn't see myself more than a few years anywhere, guess that's personal and families pay a large part in shutting that down.
Quite happy renting my apartment atm anyway, 700pm, free bins, 10-15 min cycle to work, 15 min walk to the spire. Move work, get a new house and so on.
This is the one I looked at, I see that it is now Sale Agreed status. I also said 250k not 200k. A quick search of Daft will tell you that 2 bed apartments in this block rent at €1300/€1400 PM.
I was referring to the earlier post that said there was nice 2 beds in D2-D8 for 200k that would get 1200 a month. I had a quick look and there is nothing in D2 anywhere near that and fuck living in D8.
I live in Grand Canal Dock, I pay 600 a month to share a (only OK) 2 bed with a mate. It's his sister's place so that's why the rent is so cheap. The same apartments are up for 1500-1600 a month.
This won't last forever for me though. As a single man with no kids I think buying would be a terrible decision for me at the moment. I like where I live and wouldn't be in to moving too far.
It was just the 200k for a 2 bed in D2 that caught my eye! Looks more like 350-400 though so carry on!
Friend of mine bought a gaff in Edenderry in late 2006 god knows why.
Has never lived there does not rent it out and its a ghost town.
Get a place there for 50k but why would you.
The only ones there for near 200k are Inchicore or some other shithole though? There is a nice one for 295k on the first list but sure that's 50% more than you were originally saying.
As explained above it was just the 200k for a 2 bed in D2 that caught my eye. If you see one of those ever snap it up!
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