Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - BabyforV

[hotspur]

Obv I'm fairly right-wing , and I think so is the BBV thread in general.

The BBV thread may be but probably not the average view of BBv'ers. It is distorted by a small number of right wing people who happen to be interested in, and hold views on, economic issues.

Economically right wing people always have the advantage of appearing savvy and attuned to the practical realities of the system(s) we live in. Our beardy friends have the disadvantage of appearing naive and anachronistic.

One curious thing however is that the venom tends to only go one way. Worthless social welfare scamming protester scum nutjobs, with fascist Sinn Fein or worse leanings too I'll wager! Rarely, if ever, do we get a proper two barrel reply in kind referencing the cloistered, privileged backgrounds of the opponents, and how nice it must be to be able to laugh at a water charge as a few bottles of wine or that ivory back-scratcher. Sure why would you care, it doesn't affect anyone within a 50 foot radius of you.

I am now firmly backing this man's party as our economic saviour...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UoGl78MzWY

[careca]

Two days of debauchery* start at 6am tomorrow morning in Dublin airport. Will the bar be open at that stage? Pint and times crossword seems like a nice way to start the weekend.

*this could be 2 good nights sleep as I have nowhere near enough training done for this

[LuckyLloyd]

Metering and a charge per unit is ridiculous until such point as our water infrastructure is not leaking a third of its supply.

Right. As is spending millions of euro installing meters when there are pipes to be fixed.

[Iago]

You still think, you are still wrong. The continued suggestion that the protests are lead / driven by a majority of unemployed thugs is frankly embarrassing.

Like you, I currently pay for water via income tax, etc. I support the protests. Many more like me support the protests.

Continue to ignore as you wish.

So you don't think they are the vocal element, and you don't think they are the ones who are stopping Sierra from completing work and intimidating the workers?

Do you think the poeple who are doing so are right and that people should be prevented from going about their daily jobs?

Do you think that when Gardai are drafted in to ensure that the engineers can do their jobs that the Gardai should become a valid target for verbal and/or physical abuse?

[LuckyLloyd]

Would it really though?
IMO virtually everyone that I hear claiming to be a socialist hasn't a fucking clue what they are on about and are more often on than not overprivileged people who are off on some uber patronising deluded adolescent version of helping the Mother Teresa type helping poor ego trip.

It's not your fault son.

[AndyFatBastard]

Sean McDermott Street to Finglas via Ballybrack, I'm not often accused of classism to be fair

I have nothing against the poor who want to better themselves. I have nothing against the unemployed who genuinely don't want to be such.

I still think that for the first time a portion of our population is being asked to pay a tax themselves, not an income tax which they've never had, not a social insurance payment or health charge that was picked up for them nor a property tax which they didn't have to pay.

I think they are the vocal element of the protests, and they and their progeny are those that are popping up in videos intimidating workers trying to go about their jobs, and assaulting and abusing Gardai who are trying to protect them.

Do I think the Government have made a balls of how they have gone about this?

Absolutely.

Do I think that the gombeenism has made it easy for vested interests to have a dig at the Government and in doing so drive support for themselves up and fuck the consequences?

Absolutely.

Do I think that ultimately the burden will be disproportionally placed on those who are deemed to be "earning too much"

As with everything in Ireland absolutely.

My post wasn't about classism, it was about that element of our society who either want all the benefits of a first world nation without having to contribute to it's growth, or those that will continue to use any cause they can to try and get themselves a cushy job without ever trying to make any real difference to the running of the country and what's best for it's inhabitants as a whole rather than the populist issue of the day.

You make some valid points, but they don't detract from your attempt to greatly overstate the proportion of the population who are net withdrawers from the tax system. This kind of "scrounger panic" (a signature trait of British tabloids btw) is a prime example of classism in action. It is certainly not based on an accurate understanding of the demographics of the population of the people of Ireland, the unusually high levels of income inequality found there, the current understanding of the causes of those problems, and the proposed effective solutions to them.

[CHDad]

Two days of debauchery* start at 6am tomorrow morning in Dublin airport. Will the bar be open at that stage? Pint and times crossword seems like a nice way to start the weekend.

*this could be 2 good nights sleep as I have nowhere near enough training done for this

Have you learnt the Chelsea songs yet?

[Strewelpeter]

Right. As is spending millions of euro installing meters when there are pipes to be fixed.

But the point of the whole thing is to spend a small amount making the collection of revenue fair and progressive. That income is needed to leverage the huge money needed to improve the whole infrastructure.
How do you propose we find a couple of billion to put into water infrastructure in the short term?

Clue: Tax the rich is not a meaningful answer.

[Denny Crane]

Like you, I currently pay for water via income tax, etc.

My questions earlier where more general than just regarding the water charges. Why do you vote left? Water chargers aside, do you think you should be paying more tax in general?

[LuckyLloyd]

So you don't think they are the vocal element, and you don't think they are the ones who are stopping Sierra from completing work and intimidating the workers?

Do you think the poeple who are doing so are right and that people should be prevented from going about their daily jobs?

Do you think that when Gardai are drafted in to ensure that the engineers can do their jobs that the Gardai should become a valid target for verbal and/or physical abuse?

Meter blocking is a small element of the national public protests, and it is thousands of voters out on the streets last weekend that is the element of the protests causing the gov concern.

Whether there had been 150k or 150 people on the streets last weekend the estates that have seen the most tension to date were always going to put it up to workers / Gardai on this issue. Continue to fixate on that side of it.

[LuckyLloyd]

My questions earlier where more general than just regarding the water charges. Why do you vote left? Water chargers aside, do you think you should be paying more tax in general?

Income tax levels in the state should be higher. I should pay more than I currently do, yes.

[LuckyLloyd]

But the point of the whole thing is to spend a small amount making the collection of revenue fair and progressive. That income is needed to leverage the huge money needed to improve the whole infrastructure.
How do you propose we find a couple of billion to put into water infrastructure in the short term?

Clue: Tax the rich is not a meaningful answer.

Raise income tax.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Right. As is spending millions of euro installing meters when there are pipes to be fixed.

Wasn't the whole idea behind this to do something about these pipes and save us money?
I believe the operating cost of running IW is supposed to be 500 million less to us than we are currently paying, per year.

I definitely wouldn't complain about something being done, better than nothing, ideally the pipes are fixed...we give a billion euro every year from us and nothing changes. Yes that should have changed first imo. At least out of all this it has to and the idea was that the initial extra cost is quickly turned upsidedown, saving money very fast.
The report done on this also seems to outline that a company like IW needed to be set up, simply having local councils deal with it apparently costs way more.


The reasons are never transparent and that's a major issue.

[AndyFatBastard]

TL;DR: If your argument can be easily condensed to HURR DURR SCROUNGERS DURR then you are part of the problem.

[newbie2]

I'm recalling the conversation about airport genie. What were the conclusions?
Thinking of using it for a quick trip to London next month. Just the fast track security one for a fiver

[LuckyLloyd]

Wasn't the whole idea behind this to do something about these pipes and save us money?
I believe the operating cost of running IW is supposed to be 500 million less to us than we are currently paying, per year.

I definitely wouldn't complain about something being done, better than nothing, ideally the pipes are fixed...we give a billion euro every year from us and nothing changes. Yes that should have changed first imo. At least out of all this it has to and the idea was that the initial extra cost is quickly turned upsidedown, saving money very fast.
The report done on this also seems to outline that a company like IW needed to be set up, simply having local councils deal with it apparently costs way more.

Setting up a quango as a vehicle to deliver political favours and charge extremely high relative rates for water provision is not an effective way to tackle the issue, no.

[NewApproach]

LL, if you think current Income Tax levels are too low, what do you think they should be?

I.e. what do you think the marginal tax rates should be, for both unmarried persons and married couples, at say 20k; 40k; 70k; 120k and 300k?

[Denny Crane]

Income tax levels in the state should be higher. I should pay more than I currently do, yes.

Which would you change just out of curiosity?

Sub 20k pay practically nothing. Should that change?
The higher rate (presumably aimed at high earners) kicks in at 34k? Is that too low?
The marginal rate is over 50%. Is that too low?

[Denny Crane]

the unusually high levels of income inequality found there, the current understanding of the causes of those problems, and the proposed effective solutions to them.

Why is it always income inequality? Sure it's only absolute income/poverty that matters? Does it really matter if Bill Gates moves in beside you and creates income inequality?

[Tar.Aldarion]

Setting up a quango as a vehicle to deliver political favours and charge extremely high relative rates for water provision is not an effective way to tackle the issue, no.

Is your issue with a quango in general or how it is currently set up, what would you change?
Is charges too high and who is in charge of it the basis of it?

[Megatron]

I'm recalling the conversation about airport genie. What were the conclusions?
Thinking of using it for a quick trip to London next month. Just the fast track security one for a fiver

Do it. Cuts out all the hanging about at the security check.

[Denny Crane]

Was there some WWF event on in Dublin? There was a guy built like this in my gym earlier

SPOILER

And a couple of people (and hot wimminz) with him sporting wwf t-shirts


edit: quick google image search says it was these two. I just figured the big guy was some mad juicer dude until the others turned up.

SPOILER

[DeadParrot]

But its not in any way shape or form a given... Just because Richard Boyd Barrett says it is doesn't make it so.

Obviously a little more than that.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/seanad-defeat-over-public-vote-on-irish-water-296513.html

[DeadParrot]

Was there some WWF event on in Dublin? There was a guy built like this in my gym earlier



And a couple of people (and hot wimminz) with him sporting wwf t-shirts

last night yeah

[hotspur]

Why is it always income inequality? Sure it's only absolute income/poverty that matters? Does it really matter if Bill Gates moves in beside you and creates income inequality?

It does if the price of bowl haircuts in local barbers shoots up to €4k!

[Kayroo]

There's literally zero point in debating this with Lloyd and here is why:

Setting up a quango as a vehicle to deliver political favours and charge extremely high relative rates for water provision is not an effective way to tackle the issue, no.

You cannot debate with someone who only answers the questions he wants to be asked instead of the ones he was actually asked. Not just restricted to him by the way it's just Lloyd is just so good at it.

Let me summarise this one for us all then:

Lloyd is dead set against it and somehow thinks SF are the answer to Ireland's political woes.

A sizeable group of others hate the charge but realise it's in the long term interest of the country so we should definitely pay it.

A larger group couldn't care less.

[AndyFatBastard]

Why is it always income inequality? Sure it's only absolute income/poverty that matters? Does it really matter if Bill Gates moves in beside you and creates income inequality?

http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson?language=en

There is still a lot of ongoing research attempting to explain the causative effects in the modern western world, but the correlations are completely undeniable.

[LuckyLloyd]

There's literally zero point in debating this with Lloyd and here is why:



You cannot debate with someone who only answers the questions he wants to be asked instead of the ones he was actually asked. Not just restricted to him by the way it's just Lloyd is just so good at it.

Let me summarise this one for us all then:

Lloyd is dead set against it and somehow thinks SF are the answer to Ireland's political woes.

A sizeable group of others hate the charge but realise it's in the long term interest of the country so we should definitely pay it.

A larger group couldn't care less.

Well I certainly don't have a huge interest in conversing with people who will resort to ad hominems anyway. Seems like a waste of time.

That also seems like a lacking summary of a fairly interesting conversation, though I understand that you may be frustrated that the conversation (and indeed the core issue sparking same) is not progressing as clearly as you would favour.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[LuckyLloyd]

ah trotting out the quango word. Welcome to 'words from Spitting Images 1980s' as a debating tool. An organisation that has managed to reasonably successfully implement a whole new water system in a short amount of time is a rather successful outcome from an organisational perspective. Teething pains aside. It's not like a startup - you're trying to instantly create a national smart water network against a vast set of opposing factions.

The water system is the same as ever. The new billing system attempting to be introduced by IW is untested as of yet.

[AndyFatBastard]

It does if the price of bowl haircuts in local barbers shoots up to €4k!

That would specifically refer to problems related to gentrification, which is a very particular subset of the wider issues of income inequality oh wait were you being serious?

[Raoul Duke III]

Economically right wing people always have the advantage of appearing savvy and attuned to the practical realities of the system(s) we live in.

We do? Oh, I mean yes of course. Clever chap that hotspur, always said it.

I'd love to see a technocratic, fiscally responsible, socially liberal party here in Ireland but unfortunately the closest we ever got was the PDs. Struggling to think of a role model anywhere for this kind of party tbh, maybe the Free Democrats in Germany?

"Smart people, smart solutions"

There, free logo idea.

[Raoul Duke III]

Well I certainly don't have a huge interest in conversing with people who will resort to ad hominems anyway. Seems like a waste of time..

Fairly shocking lack of self-awareness there.

[Denny Crane]

We do? Oh, I mean yes of course. Clever chap that hotspur, always said it.

I'd love to see a technocratic, fiscally responsible, socially liberal party here in Ireland but unfortunately the closest we ever got was the PDs. Struggling to think of a role model anywhere for this kind of party tbh, maybe the Free Democrats in Germany?

"Smart people, smart solutions"

There, free logo idea.

Can never understand why this never happens, it's either a case of:

Right: Do what you want with your money but we're taking control of everything else

or

Left: Do what you want, except we're taking all your money.


That third way never quite got the job done.




I suppose neither side is that different, they both just want a government that forces their ideals on others.

[Denny Crane]

Didn't realise VB was basically a communist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3sOzWmKPxg

[AndyFatBastard]

In case anyone didn't notice, it's FUCKING FRIDAY EVENING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voBNpdXkLnU

[DeadParrot]

[Denny Crane]

In case anyone didn't notice, it's FUCKING FRIDAY EVENING

Just another few hours left carrying the country on my back and then I can go home

[KevIRL]

PP affiliate enhanced.. Chelsea, arsenal, west ham and Southampton 14/1

PP social enhanced man utd, west ham and Southampton 4/1

Power play Costa to outscore Liverpool 5/1

Can't link but all can be found on a-z section of pp mobile site

[Kayroo]

Well I certainly don't have a huge interest in conversing with people who will resort to ad hominems anyway. Seems like a waste of time.

That also seems like a lacking summary of a fairly interesting conversation, though I understand that you may be frustrated that the conversation (and indeed the core issue sparking same) is not progressing as clearly as you would favour.

Subtle ad hominem calling the kettle black there my old mate.

How do you imagine I would like the discussion to go? I haven't even really been engaging in it, I've been too busy unfortunately.

My frustration, such as it is, stems from seeing a good discussion going nowhere. This is an interesting topic. It's just nobody ever seems to get into the more interesting aspects of it is all.

You're a reasonably smart man though Lloyd, I am fully aware there is no accident to your approach to this. It's just that your approach is using your powers for evil rather than good. Come over to the side of the angels. And I do not mean those broadly in favour of water charges, but rather those who would like to have a rational debate.

But hey, that's just the only person who tried to engage with you rationally talking. Not that me asking some fairly straightforward questions with no agenda or subtext did either of us any good, you continued to answer what you wanted, not what you were asked. Come on man, come back to the rational side. Get into a good debate again.

[Lazare]

Imagine you and 99 others were in a waiting room, everyone minding their own business. Everyone bored with the mundanity you would expect of a waiting room.

A band come through the door and start playing music, relieving the problem of boredom, almost everybody smiles and cheers up, happy with this intervention. Everybody except 3 people.

These 3 people heckle and shout and demand the music stops. There's a good chance due to their protests the band will stop playing, leave the room and return everyone to boredom.

Is this a fair outcome for the 97 others?

Let's say ten times the amount of protesters would've joined the 3, but didn't because they were asleep.

Would that make it any fairer?

[Flushdraw]

Imagine you and 99 others were in a waiting room, everyone minding their own business. Everyone bored with the mundanity you would expect of a waiting room.

A band come through the door and start playing music, relieving the problem of boredom, almost everybody smiles and cheers up, happy with this intervention. Everybody except 3 people.

These 3 people heckle and shout and demand the music stops. There's a good chance due to their protests the band will stop playing, leave the room and return everyone to boredom.

Is this a fair outcome for the 97 others?

Let's say ten times the amount of protesters would've joined the 3, but didn't because they were asleep.

Would that make it any fairer?

[poprock]

I went to a government procurement conference during the week and Irish water were one of the few government departments with some forward thinking and their employees appeared to be of very competent level, mostly taken from the private construction industry.

General Consensus among the construction industry on what IW approach should have taken, Firstly demonstrate where their value could be seen, ie repairing leaks which are up and down the country, instead of popping up out of nowhere and throwing in meters and adopting a pay me now philosophy.

Jesus now that I write it out, It appears the D.E.N.N.I.S system could work with all kinds of problems

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZuOKUrwoys

[BobSloane]

That singing fucking hat ain't coming back to croker Lazare. Get over it

[CHDad]

Why do idiots with musical instruments feel the need to inflict their music on a room of people who did not ask for it.

[Lord Sir Banter]

I'd tell that band to fuck off and get a gig.

[Lazare]

Substitute the band for something you would love then you cunts.

[LuckyLloyd]

How do you imagine I would like the discussion to go? I haven't even really been enBut hey, that's just the only person who tried to engage with you rationally talking. Not that me asking some fairly straightforward questions with no agenda or subtext did either of us any good, you continued to answer what you wanted, not what you were asked. Come on man, come back to the rational side. Get into a good debate again.

I answered your questions clearly and directly. You (and Tony, Glyn and a couple of others no doubt) just didn't like those answers.

[davepoke/her]

Does anyone download movies and watch them on a ps3 using a usb stick?

Been doing that lately but on some of the downloads the sound cuts off after about 25 minutes and it says something like "blah blah sound on this device blah blah" can't remember the exact warning.

If I watch the same movie on the laptop the sound is perfect.

[eamonhonda]

Substitute the band for something you would love then you cunts.

It's Friday dude, you're hurting my head

[CHDad]

You're perfect me m8 Dave.

[hotspur]

Is this a fair outcome for the 97 others?

Define "fair".

Also, Lloyd has had a couple of weeks of essential bullying on here. Can we not just expedite his trial date for Sinn Feinism and get it over once and for all?

[LuckyLloyd]

Imagine you and 99 others were in a waiting room, everyone minding their own business. Everyone bored with the mundanity you would expect of a waiting room.

A band come through the door and start playing music, relieving the problem of boredom, almost everybody smiles and cheers up, happy with this intervention. Everybody except 3 people.

These 3 people heckle and shout and demand the music stops. There's a good chance due to their protests the band will stop playing, leave the room and return everyone to boredom.

Is this a fair outcome for the 97 others?

Let's say ten times the amount of protesters would've joined the 3, but didn't because they were asleep.

Would that make it any fairer?

To start with, only 70 people turned up when the band was selected, so it's unlikely anymore than that are sitting in the waiting room. Moreover, only 37% of that 70 people wanted the band.

It's more complicated than you'd like it to be I'm afraid.

[Lord Sir Banter]

Pondering how the water charges will effect our eating habits. Rice, pasta and boilin' spuds could take a big hit. Could be a massive upswing in the popularity of baked potatoes. Yep, might try to corner the baked potato market.

Also, I can see microtea becoming the norm, might be time to invent a tiny microwave suitable for brewing a mug of scald.

Substitute the band for something you would love then you cunts.

That was your job brah!

[hotspur]

To start with, only 70 people turned up when the band was selected, so it's unlikely anymore than that are sitting in the waiting room. Moreover, only 37% of that 70 people wanted the band.

It's more complicated than you'd like it to be I'm afraid.

Well this post has certainly cleared things up.

[hotspur]

Yep, might try to corner the baked potato market.
!

Black market water is the way to go. Smuggle it in from Milan or one of the other cheap places on that list. If you smuggle it by sea then if customs boards you and wonders why your cargo hold is full of water then you can just claim that the ship is sinking.

[Lord Sir Banter]

I haven't gotten the hang of this new gmail thing yet, though have only tried briefly.
Anyone else finding it really laggy?

Does anyone download movies and watch them on a ps3 using a usb stick?

Been doing that lately but on some of the downloads the sound cuts off after about 25 minutes and it says something like "blah blah sound on this device blah blah" can't remember the exact warning.

If I watch the same movie on the laptop the sound is perfect.

When are you coming to Dublin dave?

[Kayroo]

I answered your questions clearly and directly. You (and Tony, Glyn and a couple of others no doubt) just didn't like those answers.

I can't speak about Tony or Glynn but I just wanted to understand. I'm openly admitting to ignorance and lack of understanding. That's hardly the position of someone who is just having a go. My problem isn't that I didn't like what your answers were, it's that they weren't really answers to the questions I asked.

I wasn't even having a go about Water Charges at that point. I get pretty annoyed about some of the things around the charges (the guys who talk about the right to water as a human right but don't actually understand what that means or who spout some nonsense about the Local Government Act 1997 without realising the broader context). I think the marches are a great idea. It's how protests are supposed to work and I completely agree with you that the marches are what worried the government, not the protesters in the estates.

I also think that while people should probably be protesting other issues (USC is my personal bug bear) that if this is the issue that people have snapped over then so be it. It's a democratic right for people to protest their government.

I personally agree with the water charge and I think long term it will have economic, health and conservation benefits to Ireland. I also think it's been handled terribly by a government who assumed people would swallow anything after the property tax protests fell so flat on their faces. But the reason you don't have me or others who broadly agree with much of your position weighing in with these points is the manner in which you are framing your argument. Can we not take the nonsense and the hyperbole out of it? Jesus even your own party sat on the fence until they saw which way the wind was blowing before weighing in. As you point out yourself above to Lazare, this is a more complicated issue than it seems and that works both ways.

So, to get back to my original point, most of the time it isn't that I don't like your answers. It's that you frame them within a context that doesn't allow for the subtlety which you yourself recognise exists in this situation. Although, on the SF issues, I can see why making any concessions would be difficult on your part as they would be jumped all over. Having been on the other side of Strewel's ideas about certain groups I totally understand but it's not really helpful in a broader discussion.

[cardshark202]

I answered your questions clearly and directly. You (and Tony, Glyn and a couple of others no doubt) just didn't like those answers.

As an observer in this I can say you most definitely did not answer his questions clearly and directly.
Most of your answers were basically: 'This is what is happening, deal with it'.
This is some of the most ridiculous debating I've ever witnessed. Nothing is being answered.
You answered one or two questions when you felt they were favourable to you, and avoided the rest because obviously deep down you knew you were wrong I guess. We all do that, no one likes to admit when they are mistaken or they don't have the logic to back themselves up. I'm not saying it's just who or it's all one-sided.

FWIW I think the water protesters should stfu and stop slowing down what is inevitable. It's costing more money dealing with lunatics fighting the Gardai and nutjobs abusing the workers. Sure there's a legitimate gripe you can have with how things have been handled by the government, and there is a large section of the protesters which have these concerns, fair enough. But you can't really rationally argue against water charges imo. I've yet to see anything even moderately convincing or containing even a modicum of sense.

[davepoke/her]

You're perfect me m8 Dave.

I nose m8.

When are you coming to Dublin dave?

Not sure, sometime between next week and Christmas if I had to put a date on it.