Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - BabyforV

[6starpool]

Tar, the reason why you are a vegan is an animal rights thing yeah?

I have a question for you.

If you are a pro-natalist in respect of animals (i.e. you think that animals being alive is a good, and thus more being alive is good, and thus wish to promote their propagation), then you should wish for human beings to consume animals.

You may like black rhinos, but we don't consume black rhinos. You may be fond of giant pandas, but we don't eat giant pandas. How many chickens are there in the world? Cows? Pigs? Sheep? Why are there so many?

How many cows would be born per year if we stopped consuming them and their product? A millionth of the amount born per year now? Less?

Coffee beans thrive because humans consume them, bananas, and so too animals. In advocating veganism you are essentially and realistically calling for the largest decimations of animal populations in the history of human activity.

I don't know how you reconcile this. I am sure it must be something which has been considered in the literature on this because it is a belief that I hold. The few times I have mentioned it to vegetarians they had never considered it. I am curious what the counter argument is.

That's an argument I've made to vegetarians over the years. They rarely like the question, and if they refer to the treatment I ask why they don't eat ones that are treated well while alive. They don't like that either.

[Jam-Fly]

obv I spent 6 minutes writing the above post so didn't see Tar's reply

[Jam-Fly]

Reading an article and cant understand the 'and' in this line.



http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...d-in-australia

being gay is a sexual orientation, having sex with another man might just be for the lols, doesn't make you gay. I assume it was just political correctness.

[poprock]

Tar, the reason why you are a vegan is an animal rights thing yeah?

I have a question for you.

If you are a pro-natalist in respect of animals (i.e. you think that animals being alive is a good, and thus more being alive is good, and thus wish to promote their propagation), then you should wish for human beings to consume animals.

You may like black rhinos, but we don't consume black rhinos. You may be fond of giant pandas, but we don't eat giant pandas. How many chickens are there in the world? Cows? Pigs? Sheep? Why are there so many?

How many cows would be born per year if we stopped consuming them and their product? A millionth of the amount born per year now? Less?

Coffee beans thrive because humans consume them, bananas, and so too animals. In advocating veganism you are essentially and realistically calling for the largest decimations of animal populations in the history of human activity.

I don't know how you reconcile this. I am sure it must be something which has been considered in the literature on this because it is a belief that I hold. The few times I have mentioned it to vegetarians they had never considered it. I am curious what the counter argument is.

I am definitely not a vegan nor even a supporter for their ideas, I can never figure out how a person can devote so much of their ideology and time on this issue through an introspective position.

Imagine there are 10,000 human babies and I cut off 10 of their heads, Now imagine there are 100 babies and I cut off 10 of their heads. Consider the number I have killed and then the % as a whole in each scenario. Does the fact that there are 10,000 babies make it ok to kill 10.

[mocata]

Meat makes an ideal substitute for quorn in a recipe

[CHDad]

Im eating spare ribs.

[Jam-Fly]

should I start a game of Sheep?

I keep saying I'll do the next one, but with the ongoing werewolf I'm not sure if that'd be a game overload. We might just have too much fun on IPB.

[Bubbleking]

Im eating spare ribs.

what animal do spare ribs come from? Im assuming cows

[Tar.Aldarion]

That's an argument I've made to vegetarians over the years. They rarely like the question, and if they refer to the treatment I ask why they don't eat ones that are treated well while alive. They don't like that either.

For the treatment question it should be easy for anybody to answer. It does not matter if something is treated well or badly if the thing that is done to them during that time is morally wrong. Again to use slaving as a poor analogy. Were slavers that kept their slaves in better conditions fine? I deem nearly all consumption of animals in the Western world to be unnecessary exploitation. Putting effort into treating animals better when we can simply stop eating them selfishly strikes me as a gross misuse of time and poor ethics.
Obviously most here will disagree and that's their prerogative.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Another thing that annoys me is environmentalists while I am on a rant, they can't be called that if they eat meat, yet they nearly all do, quite the joke when the number 1 thing we do that harms the planet is raise meat industrially.

Great documentary on it out this year, on the bay.
Touching on Hotspurs mention of extinction, this causes hundreds of species to go extinct every year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV04zyfLyN4

[eamonhonda]

what animal do spare ribs come from? Im assuming cows

The pig, bringer of so many great meats

[mdoug]

I am back to being broke .
Scoop6 funds are safely in an account that I cannot access for 30 days or else in shares etc which is great for my gambling habits.

I will probably put up an mdoug spinupament thread in the future. It will include all forms of gambling such as telly bingo, euromillions, scoop6, scratchcards and the auld boring football and horses and the like.
Might cap it at max 500 per person.
I'll let ye know.

[eamonhonda]

Quick question please, for beginners excel, what are the first things everyone shoukd learn.

Thinking very basic now I have formatting cells, using sort and filter, simple charts and graphs autosum and basic formulae (which formulae are must know for beginners?)

What else should someone totally new to the program learn? Thanks for any help in advance

[Jam-Fly]

Former Sunderland striker Asamoah Gyan denies killing rapper friend Castro in human sacrifice ritual


solid headline

[Jam-Fly]

Quick question please, for beginners excel, what are the first things everyone shoukd learn.

Thinking very basic now I have formatting cells, using sort and filter, simple charts and graphs autosum and basic formulae (which formulae are must know for beginners?)

What else should someone totally new to the program learn? Thanks for any help in advance

have you any specific duties or jobs you'll need to perform with excel?

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but I'd be a proponent of just learning as you go with excel.

[eamonhonda]

have you any specific duties or jobs you'll need to perform with excel?

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but I'd be a proponent of just learning as you go with excel.

No I'm pretty decent with excel, I'm teaching a group of people who wouldn't know where excel is in the start menu and just wondering what would be the things to show them, I'm covering the above just if anyone can think of some simple useful features that would be worth showing a very beginner group.

[Jam-Fly]

No I'm pretty decent with excel, I'm teaching a group of people who wouldn't know where excel is in the start menu and just wondering what would be the things to show them, I'm covering the above just if anyone can think of some simple useful features that would be worth showing a very beginner group.

oh, I'm no help to you so.

or just tell them to learn as they go and take off early.

[eamonhonda]

oh, I'm no help to you so.

or just tell them to learn as they go and take off early.

Haha I've been tasked to teach them, May not go down well if I just say "well, learn as you go on, be grand"

[Jam-Fly]

Haha I've been tasked to teach them, May not go down well if I just say "well, learn as you go on, be grand"

cover yourself by saying "it's not just excel lessons I'll be giving you, but life lessons aswell"


I think you've it fairly well covered as far as basic excel goes. Sorting and filtering would probably be the no. 1 thing I'd use in everyday excel use. But as I said, I had an approach of work away, and if I don't know how to do something, find out how to do it. That splitting the spreadsheet thing (don't even know what you call it) is something that's pretty handy in practice that some people wouldn't know about. Maybe hyperlinks to other sheets in the doc etc might come in handy?

[eamonhonda]

cover yourself by saying "it's not just excel lessons I'll be giving you, but life lessons aswell"


I think you've it fairly well covered as far as basic excel goes. Sorting and filtering would probably be the no. 1 thing I'd use in everyday excel use. But as I said, I had an approach of work away, and if I don't know how to do something, find out how to do it. That splitting the spreadsheet thing (don't even know what you call it) is something that's pretty handy in practice that some people wouldn't know about. Maybe hyperlinks to other sheets in the doc etc might come in handy?

Yeah freeze panes is handy little tool. Yeah I'd be the same as yourself and figure it out if I don't know but ya know yourself

[Icarus152]

Fair enough. We looked into it briefly but the cost/benefit doesn't really work out for an EU citizen so long ago abandoned that.

A foreign accountant?

Tar, the reason why you are a vegan is an animal rights thing yeah?

I have a question for you.

If you are a pro-natalist in respect of animals (i.e. you think that animals being alive is a good, and thus more being alive is good, and thus wish to promote their propagation), then you should wish for human beings to consume animals.

You may like black rhinos, but we don't consume black rhinos. You may be fond of giant pandas, but we don't eat giant pandas. How many chickens are there in the world? Cows? Pigs? Sheep? Why are there so many?

How many cows would be born per year if we stopped consuming them and their product? A millionth of the amount born per year now? Less?

Coffee beans thrive because humans consume them, bananas, and so too animals. In advocating veganism you are essentially and realistically calling for the largest decimations of animal populations in the history of human activity.

I don't know how you reconcile this. I am sure it must be something which has been considered in the literature on this because it is a belief that I hold. The few times I have mentioned it to vegetarians they had never considered it. I am curious what the counter argument is.

The hunting community have been using that old chestnut for donkeys years now in relation to game birds and shooting in Ireland.

Good to see Tara on an auld rant though, even if he\she is enjoying the cross gender thing a bit *too* much. Awkward.

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[mdoug]

What shares did you go for? House is by far the best investment at the moment. World equity markets are unsustainably high imo (and a lot of decent more-informed people have said that recently); whereas the Irish property play is decent at the moment.

Alternatively; could buy a very decent place in Spain given how low the prices are at the moment over there.

Had to do what every poker degen has done and buy shares in BOI.

Also am still planning on getting an apartment in Dublin. Going 50/50 with a friend if we do it as I am hoping to be travelling and he will be here to manage the place so I left aside the amount of money needed for that in the bank and the rest went onto shares.

Now it's time to have some nice spinupaments solely for travelling money

[bp_me]

A foreign accountant?

Foreign yes. Accountant no.

[Raoul Duke III]

What's the craic with these bendy iPhones? Surely by design?

[CHDad]

[careca]

Quick question please, for beginners excel, what are the first things everyone shoukd learn.

Thinking very basic now I have formatting cells, using sort and filter, simple charts and graphs autosum and basic formulae (which formulae are must know for beginners?)

What else should someone totally new to the program learn? Thanks for any help in advance

I used to teach excel for beginners (absolute beginners) and what you have outlined is fine. Maybe include how to copy a formula down a list of cells and how to reference data on a second sheet. Plenty in that though.

[oleras]

The wave feature is better.

[Emmet]

Tar, could the world sustain us if we stopped eating meat?

If veganism in Ireland had a ten fold increase in participation, what would happen?

As a silly anecdote, there was a Kale shortage because it became "cool". (it is delicious)

http://www.eater.com/2014/7/23/6182197/time-to-panic-there-may-be-a-global-kale-shortage

(and refuting my own link - it appears it was overstated, but others are, point still stands, even if the anecdote doesn't! http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/bu...ages.html?_r=0)

[Emmet]

What shares did you go for? House is by far the best investment at the moment. World equity markets are unsustainably high imo (and a lot of decent more-informed people have said that recently); whereas the Irish property play is decent at the moment.

Alternatively; could buy a very decent place in Spain given how low the prices are at the moment over there.

Golden

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[RichieM]

My favourite arguments for vegans are that meat eaters are the same as nazi's mass killing Jews or it's the same as beheading babies.

My preferred your argument with the meat is murder brigade is to ask how they fall on antibiotics, anti- viral sand the removal of parasitic larvae. All living things just not cuddly like a lamb.

Obviously a stupid argument but if you get into a debate on the subject it generally degenerates into this sort of thing anyway

[Wesley Harms]

I missed out but after mdoug won the €550 off me on the hurling what did he do with it and for how much?

Scoop 6

[Dice75]

@MDoug, what happened with the bonus pool. Did u go solo or did ye pool?

[Emmet]

It is for him.

Shares are historically overvalued, but that's a side issue compared to tailoring the investment to his particular life needs.

A house is easily the best investment because of his degeneracy as it means he'll always have somewhere to live no matter what the variance life throws at him. It's not necessarily even an investment, its a protection.

Plus we'll have 50% more people living in Ireland in the next 30 years, most of them in Dublin, so there's a natural scarcity of land. But that's a side issue compared to the investment as protection idea.

No provisos? Just absolute certainty?

It's like saying "Back House at any price". (translate things to mdoug speak).

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[Tar.Aldarion]

Tar, could the world sustain us if we stopped eating meat?

If veganism in Ireland had a ten fold increase in participation, what would happen?

As a silly anecdote, there was a Kale shortage because it became "cool". (it is delicious)

http://www.eater.com/2014/7/23/6182197/time-to-panic-there-may-be-a-global-kale-shortage

(and refuting my own link - it appears it was overstated, but others are, point still stands, even if the anecdote doesn't! http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/bu...ages.html?_r=0)

Oh of course, you get something ridiculous like a 1%-3% return on resources from making meat. One day as a vegan you use this much less resources on average: 1,100 gallons of water, 45 pounds of grain, 30 sq ft of forested land, 20 lbs CO2 equivalent, and one animal’s life. The reason it damages the environment so much is all the resources needed. You have to realise you are using food to create food, it will be a negative sum game, and it's hugely negative. And as for water 4,000-18,000 gallons is the US governments numbers of water needed to create 1 burger, 1/3 pound of meat. Animal agriculture use ranges from 34-76 trillion gallons of water annually. 1,000 gallons of water are required to produce 1 gallon of milk.

Livestock are on 45% of the worlds land, and teh feed crops for them on another significant portion.

Land required to feed 1 person for 1 year:
Vegan: 1/6th acre
Vegetarian: 3x as much as a vegan
Meat eater: 18x as much vegan

1.5 acres can produce 37,000 pounds of plant-based food.
1.5 acres can produce 375 pounds of meat.

[Dice75]

John Malkovich recreates famous photo poses, some a bit weird......

http://www.boredpanda.com/portrait-remakes-malkovich-homage-to-photographic-masters-sandro-miller/?fb_action_ids=10152767798860645&fb_action_types=og.comments

[Tar.Aldarion]

Great story of a greek robin hood

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_8700/index.html

[Emmet]

well there's the average house price in Ireland which is generally viewed as fairly priced. There's an obvious assumption of sensibility in the purchase

mdoug....

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[tylerdurden94]

What's the craic with these bendy iPhones? Surely by design?

Apple always seem to have some stupid news about them after releasing a phone, this one feels ridic it caught some heat on line and then just ballooned into this massive problem that is probably actually only very small. People are fucking idiots!!!

This dude does a good job at debunking the nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3QcOSyD38M

[Strewelpeter]

I'm going to ignore the environmental arguments for now as with current technology you are on the right side there, but...

As the vegan holocaust survivor said in the linked AMA: What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis, or animals.

This bit is just totally and utterly wrong, its a batshit crazy form of anthropomorphism taken across the line marked ludicrous, driven up the road a couple of hundred miles and then let out of the car to walk home.

If there were any logic to it you would need to apply it reductio ad absurdum to bacteria and plants. But there isn't any logic, its just an emotional attachment to the cute eyes that some animals have.
Whether people like it or not there is a hierarchy, a chicken or a fish is not the same as a Gorilla and any attempt to attribute to them an equivalent level of consciousness and the rights that should and do exist beyond what is appropriate for their level is nonsense.

[CHDad]

HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE

McGregor has Poirier rattled and shitting himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_me9KGwqBw#t=235

[Flushdraw]

fck it I might play the Fitz EOM tonight for the first time in what feels like forever.

Could also be swayed into eating steak and drinking wine in Asador instead.

Played it last month for the first time in a while, and i won't be rushing back. Shit structure but i suppose it does need to get finished in 1 night.

[Tar.Aldarion]

I'm going to ignore the environmental arguments for now as with current technology you are on the right side there, but...

This bit is just totally and utterly wrong, its a batshit crazy form of anthropomorphism taken across the line marked ludicrous, driven up the road a couple of hundred miles and then let out of the car to walk home.

If there were any logic to it you would need to apply it reductio ad absurdum to bacteria and plants. But there isn't any logic, its just an emotional attachment to the cute eyes that some animals have.
Whether people like it or not there is a hierarchy, a chicken or a fish is not the same as a Gorilla and any attempt to attribute to them an equivalent level of consciousness and the rights that should and do exist beyond what is appropriate for their level is nonsense.

Actually the person that said that doesn't even like animals, and is merely a holocaust survivor that sees as what he is doing is right, while drawing upon similarities in mindset, not because of any cuteness factor.

By your logic everybody and every thing has a different value, the whole point is to assign a base value to things that are sentient. it doesn't matter if a man is more important than a dog or a dog is more important than a cat, they are all sentient and feel pain and suffering, which we inflict on them and do so selfishly and do not need to do so. A pretty dire attitude to thinks that can suffer.


The quote is:

"The negative reaction is largely due to people's mistaken perception that the comparison values their lives equally with those of pigs and cows. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis, or animals. It's the mindset that allowed German and Polish neighbors of extermination camps to go on with their lives, just as we continue to subsidize the oppression of animals at the supermarket checkout counter."

Also:

Plants have no nervous system. It's physiologically not possible for them to experience a sensation close to what we call pain. Animals from more complex classes, including fish and insects, all have a nervous system no matter how rudimentary. Therefore it is very likely (essentially guaranteed by evolution) that they experience a sensation equivalent to pain. I don't believe that foxes or birds or fish ever ponder the meaning of life or the concept of death but if something experiences pain, I don't believe they should be made to experience pain unnecessarily.

[Strewelpeter]

You are getting me wrong, I'm all for humane standards and as long as they are appropriate to the observable / measurable level of sentience its all good.

I guess though that we might want to draw the line of what we consider to be humane standards at different places.

For instance I do believe that most mass produced chickens are probably not being treated at a suitable standard whereas I think that all cattle even those who live entirely indoors are treated humanely.

The use of the word oppressed in the context of farm animals is meaningless.

[Zod]

fck it I might play the Fitz EOM tonight for the first time in what feels like forever.

Could also be swayed into eating steak and drinking wine in Asador instead.

Surely you'll have time to do both.

[Keane]

Thought provoking stuff on the animals as food debate, more plz

[Emmet]

1.5 acres can produce 37,000 pounds of plant-based food.
1.5 acres can produce 375 pounds of meat.

Weight of food is kind of irrelevant no?
Just an arbitrary choice of metric (easy obviously)

How many acres required to provide similar nutrient profiles? Fats? Proteins? Calories? I think that's a far harder metric to quantify and compare (obviously), but the numerical difference wouldn't be anywhere near as stark.

(I'm interested and I simply don't know the answers, not aggressively asking though it might come across that way)

[Lazare]

The wave feature is better.

I think this sort of shit is incredibly poor form. Yeah lol at stupid people and all but it's a pretty expensive thing to destroy.

Not ranting at you Ole

[eamonhonda]

I think this sort of shit is incredibly poor form. Yeah lol at stupid people and all but it's a pretty expensive thing to destroy.

Not ranting at you Ole

Not at all, there's not enough idiot tests out there, things like this should be everywhere to keep people in check.

[Emmet]

Anyone going for Thursday pints in Dublin should be made aware that some pubs are operating a "tax free" day to highlight how much of the price of a pint goes to the Govt.

http://publin.ie/2014/tax-free-day-in-dublin-pubs/

Bargains to be had!

Participating pubs here

SPOILER

[tipp86]

Haha I've been tasked to teach them, May not go down well if I just say "well, learn as you go on, be grand"

I have an excel training course from my time at state st. If it would be handy I could scan it for you. I would not be able to do this until next Monday if that was any good.

[Fiend]

As I understand it, we currently produce enough to feed 12 billion humans. There is just massive waste. Seems like better logistics can solve this problem rather than attempting to stop eating animals altogether.

Trying to ease suffering and pain in animals while a noble goal is simply not possible.


'Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed'
Tennyson

[hotspur]

Had to do what every poker degen has done and buy shares in BOI.

Also am still planning on getting an apartment in Dublin. Going 50/50 with a friend if we do it as I am hoping to be travelling and he will be here to manage the place so I left aside the amount of money needed for that in the bank and the rest went onto shares.

Now it's time to have some nice spinupaments solely for travelling money

How much did you win in the Scoop 6? Don't answer if you don't want, just being nosey really. But having half the loots for an apartment and then shares is nice. Is there anything that would help further with the Scoop funds in the bank not becoming splurge funds in a month?

[AndyFatBastard]

Trying to ease suffering and pain in animals while a noble goal is simply not possible.

This is a perfectionist fallacy. Just because it's not possible to be 100% successful, doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to try.

[NewApproach]

Mdoug should rank his investment options based on how illiquid they are. Expected returns are pretty much immaterial.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Weight of food is kind of irrelevant no?
Just an arbitrary choice of metric (easy obviously)

How many acres required to provide similar nutrient profiles? Fats? Proteins? Calories? I think that's a far harder metric to quantify and compare (obviously), but the numerical difference wouldn't be anywhere near as stark.

(I'm interested and I simply don't know the answers, not aggressively asking though it might come across that way)

I believe this was already worked out in the land per person stats that I mentioned. 1/6th of an acre vs 18 times more. That would make it 18 times less use of land for a vegan vs 1000 in the stats you mentioned above. There is efficiency lost at every stage of the process, instead of eating the food we feed animals and make them grow, producing much less food than we could have eaten in the first place. Not just food and land is wasted. And the environmental impact is pretty devastating. As I said, the number one most harmful thing we do. This is not even addressed by organisations that promote environmentalism due to money/power of those promoting meat. Plenty of people have been assassinated for speaking out.

Article by the bbc this month:

"The average efficiency of livestock converting plant feed to meat is less than 3%, and as we eat more meat, more arable cultivation is turned over to producing feedstock for animals that provide meat for humans.

"The losses at each stage are large, and as humans globally eat more and more meat, conversion from plants to food becomes less and less efficient, driving agricultural expansion and releasing more greenhouse gases. Agricultural practices are not necessarily at fault here - but our choice of food is."

As AFB said, we can not eradicate these things completely, but it is certainly a worthy thing to do, reduce as munch harm caused as you can.