Hero or not to hero

[Boylo91]

€50 freeze out live game in local casino ..5th level 200/400 villian is pretty active playing a lot of pots,he also check raised flop bet turn with a gutshot and got there on river and got paid in a pretty big pot few hands previous to this..


Villian 23k
Hero 15k
villian mid position raises 1200,cut off calls
We have a5hh on the button make the call
Flop 852hxx
Villian bets 2200 ,fold,we call,
Turn 4h picked up nut flush draw and a gutterball with middle pair
villian bets 3500 , we call
River brings QD Villian bombs it before the card even hit the felt ..


Considering he is capable of anything Is there ever a hero call here with 3rd pair for your tournament life?

[Boylo91]

I know it probably should be a fold or a 3 bet pre before the abuse comes firing ..! :P

[mdoug]

With your personal thinking towards this hand I think you should be shoving the turn to his bet

[Boylo91]

Tought about shoving turn but opted not to,,iv played a decent amount of hands with this guy i went for the flat on the turn and re access the situation on the river i was 90% sure he was gonna jam it ..
But haven said that 3rd pair isnt really good enough to be bluff catching with for your tournament life against a maniac .
After the hand thinkin about it shoving turn was the best option i tought!

with flatting the turn is there ever a hero here or is it just way to Dangerous for your tourney life ?

[TheImprover]

Fold pre

[Flushdraw]

Tought about shoving turn but opted not to,,iv played a decent amount of hands with this guy i went for the flat on the turn and re access the situation on the river i was 90% sure he was gonna jam it ..
But haven said that 3rd pair isnt really good enough to be bluff catching with for your tournament life against a maniac .
After the hand thinkin about it shoving turn was the best option i tought!

with flatting the turn is there ever a hero here or is it just way to Dangerous for your tourney life ?

I can't really get my head around this post. There's nothing really to reassess on the river if you've 8k behind and there's 16k in the middle before he shoves. You're just calling to hit seeing as you know he's shoving the river, and you should have a plan what you're going to do when you fail to hit the river.

Your hand is perfectly capable of bluff catching. It's a mile ahead of any hands he's bluffing with and if you think he plays overcards this way, then you only need to be right 1/4 to make it a call. He could obviously be jamming overpairs and Qx on the river.

As played, i'm always shoving the turn. You want to protect your hand, maybe fold out some better hands 6s,7s, maybe some 8s, and if you don't have the best hand, you could have as many as 18 cards to improve (9 hearts, 3 fours, 3 aces, 3 fives) so ~36% equity.

I just shove pre though. We're adding 20% to our stack against a loose opener (and given you gave no info on the flatter, i presume he's just folding). You could even get called by KQs type hands.

[Boylo91]

Thanks for your input flushdraw..it makes a lot of sense,,thinking back i should of definitley shoved the turn and locked it up there and then or go the river with decent equity..
My plan was to call it off on the river i wasnt folding when i called the turn,altough i tanked for a while and almost talked myself into folding,elected to call and turns over q10 off for TP
was a huge mistake not shoving turn but he jams if he misses the river most of the time too ,its just bleh

[OasisKid]

I can't really get my head around this post. There's nothing really to reassess on the river if you've 8k behind and there's 16k in the middle before he shoves. You're just calling to hit seeing as you know he's shoving the river, and you should have a plan what you're going to do when you fail to hit the river.

Your hand is perfectly capable of bluff catching. It's a mile ahead of any hands he's bluffing with and if you think he plays overcards this way, then you only need to be right 1/4 to make it a call. He could obviously be jamming overpairs and Qx on the river.

As played, i'm always shoving the turn. You want to protect your hand, maybe fold out some better hands 6s,7s, maybe some 8s, and if you don't have the best hand, you could have as many as 18 cards to improve (9 hearts, 3 fours, 3 aces, 3 fives) so ~36% equity.

I just shove pre though. We're adding 20% to our stack against a loose opener (and given you gave no info on the flatter, i presume he's just folding). You could even get called by KQs type hands.

3 bet shoving almost 40 bbs with A5h seems like the worst option here and in general. Agree that shoving turn is the right play, like the flat pre.

[Flushdraw]

3 bet shoving almost 40 bbs with A5h seems like the worst option here and in general

Definitely agree with the bolded part. In the situation described by the OP where a loose guy is 3x opening and gets a flatter and we can pick up 20% without showdown by shoving, i like that option. I don't really like folding, don't like 3bet call/fold, but prefer a shove over a call. Not something i like doing in general, but this seems like a good spot imo.

Edit - Suppose we could make 4100 pre rather than shove if we don't think he's going to shove light on us. Could be a shitty spot if he's the sort of person to flat pre though.

[OasisKid]

Yeah it makes sense what your saying, i just think its best to take the lower variance route here cause ye could easily walk into a monster. just my humble opinion

[bustamoves]

if we think he's a bona fide maniac and going to be bluffing the river with such a high frequency i think calling turn and calling river gains us more chips (than shoving turn).

protecting vs 8x seems illogical because we're unlikely to have much fold equity.

and vs overcards i dont see the point either especially now that our flush draw is live and he loses those outs.

since you got to the turn i like call/call (not sure about the call pre but i'm probably calling anyway like yourself).

hero call

[4ofakind1489]

I don't mind the flat pre at all I'd prefer to 3 bet tho but as played 100% shoving turn