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**BallymoreChris** · 26-12-13, 01:08

"Did I just make a bad lay down???"

Probably a good laydown imo. If KQ is winning then so is A high.

**sniperaction** · 26-12-13, 01:55

Now that confused me???

Did you read the hand right?

**Guest** · 26-12-13, 09:07

HUD stats or any reads/tendencies etc would be handy but assume you have none.
Alot of his raising range on the flop will consist of combo draws as well as nutted hands J9 2 pairs etc, it's so rarely air imo
If you had Kh or Qh a few combos could be eliminated but without them his range is a tad wider. I think you must make the decision on the turn, if you call turn and rivers bricks then it's probably a call, as played I probably wake up with a call but perhaps folding turn is best.

**Morihei** · 26-12-13, 12:17

Hmm, extremely low signal/noise.

**Bubbleking** · 26-12-13, 12:55

If you called the turn you should have called the river

I think the combos of draws that missed far outnumber the number of nut hands that take this line

you can justify any line you like once you have a decent reason for it so maybe if you told us your reasons for laying it down we could have a better discussion on it

**AndyFatBastard** · 26-12-13, 13:12

Originally posted by sniperaction View Post

Now that confused me???

Did you read the hand right?

Pssst... If you didn't understand his post then perhaps asking him to elaborate would be the nice thing to do rather than assuming he misread the hand.

You probably don't realise that Chris is one of the best tournament players in Ireland and someone you want to keep on your side if you're genuinely looking for advice.

This spot is really dependent on your impression of the villain. Like do you think he could be doing this with KJ, the nut flush draw or some kind of combo draw? Basically, how many bluffs are in his range for checkraising the flop, continuing turn and shoving river? You are only beating a bluff after all. He's probably not playing QJ like that unless he's a maniac, right?

**sniperaction** · 26-12-13, 18:12

He was only new to the table and I didn't have many hands on him after about 40 hands after that he was running at 15/5 approx.

And just to clear up my earlier comment your right I didn't understand the comment and I was just reaching out for more information, but I am sure he will be happy you have his back.

Thank you all for your input much appreciated as always.

**sniperaction** · 26-12-13, 18:22

I actually laid it down because as it was playing out it just felt he had 88 but cant really base this on anything other then the dynamics due to lack of hands collected.

**ArmaniJeans** · 26-12-13, 18:26

Originally posted by sniperaction View Post

He was only new to the table and I didn't have many hands on him after about 40 hands after that he was running at 15/5 approx.

And just to clear up my earlier comment your right I didn't understand the comment and I was just reaching out for more information, but I am sure he will be happy you have his back.

Thank you all for your input much appreciated as always.

His comment means that, in his opinion, your hand is effectively the same as A high in this situation. Which means that whatever hands A high would beat are the only hands that your paired Q could beat. In other words your opponent never has QJ or A8 or stuff like that so therefore you can only beat a bluff.

**dobby** · 26-12-13, 18:28

I think you need to make your mind up on the turn to continue with the hand or not. After the flop raise and turn bet, it looks like AQ or 88 imo. If he was aggressive it could be KJh with a monster draw, but unlikely imo with position he would surely just check? So it's a fold for me.

Edit: Armani got there before me. So, what he said.

**sniperaction** · 26-12-13, 18:53

Yes Armani I understood the answer in the end.
I was a victim of my own ignorance

**Winning!** · 26-12-13, 19:17

decent flop to c/c esp with stacks, balances our c/f range too though prob not overly important here. As played fold flop, fold turn, fold river.

**BallymoreChris** · 26-12-13, 20:31

I dont agree you always have to make up your mind on the turn in these spots. You have more information on the river to make a decision. Loads of players are prepaired to fire 15-30% of their stack on the turn with draws/air but not many will stick the lot in with nothing on the river.
If you havent got solid info to call then give them the benifit of the doubt.

**AndyFatBastard** · 26-12-13, 21:50

Originally posted by sniperaction View Post

I actually laid it down because as it was playing out it just felt he had 88 but cant really base this on anything other then the dynamics due to lack of hands collected.

Sniperaction, you need to stop thinking this way. This is something I see lots of losing players do - simply picking one hand that your opponent could have and basing your decision on that hand alone, with only a small allowance made for other hands. You need to start putting your opponent on a range of hands, and basing your decisions on that range. This is hard. It requires some mental gymnastics. Doing it properly requires an understanding of the combinatorics of poker and a decent ability to guesstimate your hand's strength versus that range.

There are some decent training videos out there on how to use Pokerstove to analyse a hand, which would really drive home how important it is to construct your opponent's range properly.

**Bubbleking** · 27-12-13, 02:16

Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post

If you havent got solid info to call then give them the benifit of the doubt.

disagree. I think it completely player dependent. If you took this line I would need you to turn over the absolute nutleys before Id ever consider folding. In saying that considering the dude is 15/5 its probably a fold

**BallymoreChris** · 27-12-13, 03:34

Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post

disagree. I think it completely player dependent. If you took this line I would need you to turn over the absolute nutleys before Id ever consider folding. In saying that considering the dude is 15/5 its probably a fold

1.If you had information on the player that would be considered information?
OP has said he had no info of any importance on villian therefore im going to stick the villian in the no info box and give him the benifit of the doubt. Hope this makes sense.

2. If it was myself & yourself in the hand youd be correct to call with top pair Q kicker because against a calling station i would be shoving a lot worse for value

**Denny Crane** · 27-12-13, 13:15

I'd fold flop but call river now. Really should have a plan for the hand on the flop.

**TheImprover** · 27-12-13, 15:11

I like your bet on the flop but now I'd fold, I think you have to fold the river, as said above at this stage of a tourney it is not too often you will get a player too bluff off his whole stack on a triple barrel bluff and villain has to know that you have a hand after you bet/call, ck/call. What are your own stats btw? Are you known for taking these lines of play on draws?

**sniperaction** · 29-12-13, 22:00

My own about 18/10 with no previous with the player

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Did I just make a bad lay down??? 2thewanderer

Did I just make a bad lay down??? 2thewanderer

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