Player declares his hand not knowing action is not over

[StuckinaRut]

Tournament. 6 remain. Blinds 2000 / 4000. Average stack about 20k

UTG shoves for 15k
UTG+1 (chip leader) reshoves for 45k
folded to BB who has about 20k

UTG thinks BB has folded and asks UTG+1 "Am I in trouble?"
UTG+1 also thinks BB has folded (probably because UTG has asked the question) and says - "Yep... I have aces"

BB says he has not acted yet. He claims that UTG+1's hand is dead because he has told what he has, so he can now call the original shove and only have UTG to beat. (There was no discussion about whether UTG+1 would have to leave 20k or 15k in the pot - this was not the issue).

UTG+1, UTG and basically everyone else says that BB is out of order and that this is not in the spirit of the game. Dealer explains situation to TD who rules that the aces are not dead. BB folds and later bitches that he would have hit two pair and that the ruling was wrong and and and.... It seems that BB had rags - maybe would have hit two pair.

AA holds up (UTG had A6 for what its worth) and he goes on to win the tournament.

Now I have heard it said before that if you delcare your hand correctly it is dead, but I cannot find any mention of this in Robert's rules. In any case, surely that would be to deal with deliberately telling when knowing the action was not over. Fairness and common sense (and a good TD) would surely overrule in this situation even if there is such a rule.

Any views? Does the rule differ from place to place? Anyone come across the rule as stated by the BB?

[gorrrr72]

Tournament. 6 remain. Blinds 2000 / 4000. Average stack about 20k

UTG shoves for 15k
UTG+1 (chip leader) reshoves for 45k
folded to BB who has about 20k

UTG thinks BB has folded and asks UTG+1 "Am I in trouble?"
UTG+1 also thinks BB has folded (probably because UTG has asked the question) and says - "Yep... I have aces"

BB says he has not acted yet. He claims that UTG+1's hand is dead because he has told what he has, so he can now call the original shove and only have UTG to beat. (There was no discussion about whether UTG+1 would have to leave 20k or 15k in the pot - this was not the issue).

UTG+1, UTG and basically everyone else says that BB is out of order and that this is not in the spirit of the game. Dealer explains situation to TD who rules that the aces are not dead. BB folds and later bitches that he would have hit two pair and that the ruling was wrong and and and.... It seems that BB had rags - maybe would have hit two pair.

AA holds up (UTG had A6 for what its worth) and he goes on to win the tournament.

Now I have heard it said before that if you delcare your hand correctly it is dead, but I cannot find any mention of this in Robert's rules. In any case, surely that would be to deal with deliberately telling when knowing the action was not over. Fairness and common sense (and a good TD) would surely overrule in this situation even if there is such a rule.

Any views? Does the rule differ from place to place? Anyone come across the rule as stated by the BB?

Not sure of the actual rule but a warning to UTG & UTG+1 to be more careful would suffice. No need to declare his hand dead and it's a dirty angleshoot to even try imo.
Obviously UTG+1 would welcome the action from the BB regardless of the results so there's no way he was inducing a fold by declaring his hand.
Good common sense ruling.

[bp_me]

Any views? Does the rule differ from place to place? Anyone come across the rule as stated by the BB?

Speech play is a part of the game.

I would not play anywhere that ruled a hand dead because of this.

I would never rule it dead myself (though I have heard it said and done).

[EssEll]

Any dealing with this in the new Irish rules of poker?

[EssEll]

The best hand should win the pot. Finding reasons to kill the obvious winning hand is probably going to be disastrous, not to mention dragging the integrity of the game thru the dirt. This is the area that is most often abused by players. Some "technicality" occurs, and some jerk (with the obvious worst hand) is whining "that hand is dead!" and trying to get the best hand killed so he can win with the worst hand. I HATE these people and treat them with the utmost disdain and malice.


Above is quoted from the 2+2 discussion on how a TD/floor should behave. See the other post on this forum: "Rules and Rulings FLOOR" by curleywurley - - the quote above is an exact match for the situation in this thread.

[BrianByrne]

There have been cases where a player has openly shared what his two whole cards are before action has been completed and have had their hands declared dead.

However TD rulings are guidelines.

POKER ETIQUETTE - The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
 Deliberately acting out of turn.
 Deliberately splashing chips into the pot.
 Agreeing to check a hand out when a third player is all-in.
 Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed face up on the table.
 Telling anyone to turn a hand face up at the showdown.
 Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multi handed pot before the betting is complete.
 Needlessly stalling the action of a game.
 Deliberately discarding hands away from the muck. Cards should be released in a low line of flight, at a moderate rate of speed (not at the dealer's hands or chip-rack).
 Stacking chips in a manner that interferes with dealing or viewing cards.
 Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.
 Using a cell phone at the table.

In the case of disputes and rules interpretations, the TD will have final authority. TD reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness,

This can sometimes mean disregarding a rule or 2 if the TD see's it as unfair to obide by them in the given circumstance.

in your case.. a genuine mistake was made and in "The spirit of fairness" id say the TD did the right thing by not killing the hand.

However the BB might argue it was unfair on himself but meh..TD has final say

[Fuzzy Logic]

However the BB might argue it was unfair on himself but meh..TD has final say

Did you just refer to yourself in the 3rd person?

[Mellor]

However the BB might argue it was unfair on himself but meh..TD has final say

Unfair??
The BB got to find out his opponent's hand(s) before he acted, this is a lot of things, but certainly not unfair.

BB is also a cock for trying to get it ruled dead.

[NewApproach]

hand is dead because he has told what he has

This rule should be scrapped, and anyone who tries to have someone lose a hand by trying to have a TD implement it should be barred imo. Such a stupid rule, not to mention it can be pretty ambiguous.