% sale discussion

[markc]

Glad to see it got resolved amicably. Surprised Kayroo did not post here but if he did I'd imagine something like:

Initial staking post by Jason = invitation to treat
Rebel booking 2% = offer
Rebel shipping 2% = valid consideration
Jason seeking confirmation, not getting it and specifically canceling prior to the event starting = No acceptance on his part that he had a valid contract with rebel

I know that contract law does not apply here but I think that if it did, Jason is totally vindicated subject to shipping back the stake. the other argue,nets made on both sides, while well intended and interesting are not really relevant to whether here was a valid, binding agreement in place between the 2 parties.

Oh - WP Jason - some score all the same

[poprock]

Hi All,

I am pleased to announce that after a couple of pm's, Rebel has accepted my offer/gift. We can all move forward now by learning from and putting this unfortunate situation behind us.

Today is a good day for Poker.

(Sorry to those who wanted a popcorn thread )

I see he doesnt air his own laundry in public just other people`s

[smoothcall]

Ahh Bollocks....

[blaaaaaaah]

Hi All,

I am pleased to announce that after a couple of pm's, Rebel has accepted my offer/gift. We can all move forward now by learning from and putting this unfortunate situation behind us.

Today is a good day for Poker.

(Sorry to those who wanted a popcorn thread )

[B8kedbean]

Yeah i mean the way i see once you have sent the money to the person and the exact amount is in thier stars a/c via transfer from a SN you have sent them money form on numerous occasions in the past.... there can only be one outcome especially considering the unusual circumstances of working in the middle east and not having access to poker websites and the fact that the transfer was not shipped back before the start of the event. Also I would add that there is nothing in the sticky rules about having to confirm the purchase of a % after you have shipped the money to the person..........

[cardshark202]

one thing that still gets to me is with all this money on the line why doesnt he get a family member or close friend to access his account on IPB and do the responding for him, are phones band over there to ?

Perhaps it's not as much money to him, perhaps he doesn't want to explain to a friend or family what's at stake. From his POV he has no responding to do, he figures he's done all he needs.

[amberleaf]

+1

I did not get involved or offered an opinion as it was not my business but an interesting discussion all the same. One thing you have shown is that there is still a bit of honour and decency left in the game which is something that was missing a lot in my last few years of playing. Good karma for you next time around hopefully

The other thing i also learnt is that you folks love a good drama

+2,well said sir,fwiw i'd ask jt to hang on to the money and use it for future stakes,(say 2%)until the 1700 euro was spent,could be free rolling big score.nice offer well done.

[Laois Hammer]

real life superheros ITT wp jos great offer

one thing that still gets to me is with all this money on the line why doesnt he get a family member or close friend to access his account on IPB and do the responding for him, are phones band over there to ?

whats the rush? he dosent have to do that at all imagine trying to explain to someone where to even start. clearly he hasnt even seen the offer yet

[FlushNut12]

one thing that still gets to me is with all this money on the line why doesnt he get a family member or close friend to access his account on IPB and do the responding for him, are phones band over there to ?

[Jackyback]

well played Jason - I think you have showed a lot of class.

+1

I did not get involved or offered an opinion as it was not my business but an interesting discussion all the same. One thing you have shown is that there is still a bit of honour and decency left in the game which is something that was missing a lot in my last few years of playing. Good karma for you next time around hopefully

The other thing i also learnt is that you folks love a good drama

[gorrrr72]

Congrats again on the result Jason, hope you make many more Major Event final tables and bink your fair share of titles.

Fantastic gesture to Rebel and the charity although it was crystal clear to me that he had accepted losing out on the % after he missed the deadline.(imho)

VWP

[Degenerate88]

WOW. The price of success. Tough situation on both parties imo. Interesting read. Everyone loves a bit of controversy and it's a real eye opener in terms of selling %s . This thread will probably save a lot of similar situations from occurring. Fair play to Jason for doing the business in San Remo that caused 2% to be worthy of such discussion.

[sligoboi]

If he actually can't get online imagine how much of a sweat he's having right now...

[bohsman]

Just read through this and like others found myself swayed by both arguments. Before I got to blaaaahs reply though I found myself hoping he would pay - although i didn't feel he absolutely had to or anything.

Very much this for me. Seems like a fair resolution.

[Wesley Harms]

There's just the small matter of Rebel's reply to think of before its locked up Ray.....

That will be sometime around 05.16 on Sunday morning if he's consistent

[BobSloane]

Just read through this and like others found myself swayed by both arguments. Before I got to blaaaahs reply though I found myself hoping he would pay - although i didn't feel he absolutely had to or anything. It was at least a grey murky area and your reputation is worth more than 3.4k. Lots of people read this thread but lots of people didn't and in the future it could have become

randomer 1 - "who's that guy?"
randomer 2 - "oh that's yer man that didn't pay up a guy that bought a % of him when he scooped big at some ept a few years ago"
randomer 3 -"yeah that's him - i heard he likes to torture small animals too"
eavesdropping randomers 4,5 and 6(muttering) "fucking hell- jaysus, what a cunt!"


vwp on the resolution offered - and congrats on the big payday yourself!

[KevIRL]

ITS all been said wp jason exellent offer MODS LOCK IT UP

There's just the small matter of Rebel's reply to think of before its locked up Ray.....

[kenttheking]

ITS all been said wp jason exellent offer MODS LOCK IT UP

[Morihei]

Is there a reserve list should Rebel not post confirmation of acceptance of the generous offer?

[blaaaaaaah]

BBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Should have settled this like men not good samaritans. Fight for it at the IPO! to hell with raszi v elky! Tompkins v rebel is where its at! Dont mind the weight advantage u can take him tompkins!!

Loan me a few of those sovereign rings Mick, he doesn't stand a chance then

[mdoug]

Or maybe he just plays the game that well!

Reminds me of CHD playing WW

[BIGMICKG]

ah no in all seriousness good to see the situation resolved, was a real messy one both of them had a valid arguement, let it be a lesson for people in future

[Thefonze]

Must admit I admire Jason's gesture here. Great to see in today's world. Class act.

[BIGMICKG]

BBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Should have settled this like men not good samaritans. Fight for it at the IPO! to hell with raszi v elky! Tompkins v rebel is where its at! Dont mind the weight advantage u can take him tompkins!!

[danutpeddler]

In fairness to the guy (and I have not taken a position either way but enjoyed the read) I think the lack of response highlights the issues he has trying to get online over there which was the crux of the issue in the first place!

I read back my post and it looks a little stirry, apologies!!

I actually feel for rebel now that i've digested it all. Jason does lay into him a bit in his post when you read it back and in all fairness he had a case in a shitty situation.

Sometimes it's just hard to approach shitty situations.

[eamonhonda]

In fairness to the guy (and I have not taken a position either way but enjoyed the read) I think the lack of response highlights the issues he has trying to get online over there which was the crux of the issue in the first place!

Or maybe he just plays the game that well!

[White Knight]

Has Rebel accepted?

You reckon he could be having pride issues with being called sketchy and ignorant while Jason looks classy?

In fairness to the guy (and I have not taken a position either way but enjoyed the read) I think the lack of response highlights the issues he has trying to get online over there which was the crux of the issue in the first place!

[pokerhand]

I've posted so much more since I got a day job Off home in a minute. Probably won't hear from me til tomorrow

Hopefully the bosses are not reading this and know who we are then... Lazy slackers

[The Aul Switcharoo]

What do people do at work if they don't look on here?

I've posted so much more since I got a day job Off home in a minute. Probably won't hear from me til tomorrow

[pokerhand]

What do people do at work if they don't look on here?

Beats me as I am obviously not one of those people

[eamonhonda]

Maybe he has a job and hasn't had time to look at this thread?

What do people do at work if they don't look on here?

[pokerhand]

Has Rebel accepted?

You reckon he could be having pride issues with being called sketchy and ignorant while Jason looks classy?

Maybe he has a job and hasn't had time to look at this thread?

[danutpeddler]

Has Rebel accepted?

You reckon he could be having pride issues with being called sketchy and ignorant while Jason looks classy?

[BallymoreChris]

Did Jason withdraw the offer of the 2% tho

I didn't see it been confirmed anywhere for sure....

[Flushdraw]

fair play to you Jason.

if you now go on to win EPT Prague does that constitute a bad beat for Rebel?

Did Jason withdraw the offer of the 2% tho

[BallymoreChris]

fair play to you Jason.

if you now go on to win EPT Prague does that constitute a bad beat for Rebel?

[Winning!]

GENT! vwp jason

[MikePattonHead]

In fairness judge Judy coulda sorted this out in 5 mins!

Fair play Jason, keepin a couple of grand won't change ur life but givin it away just might!

[ferg]

Too early for ya Richie?

I didnt know what compromise meant until i got married, learned pretty quick after alright

[Wesley Harms]

Gonna make a fab husband one day sir!

Wtf.

Oh wp Jason, top drawer

[ferg]

Wow, now thats a compromise only a gent could muster!

Gonna make a fab husband one day sir!

VWP!

[Lplated]

An upstanding IPBer just got more 'upstandier' in my view. WP Blaah.

Think there were valid arguments and opinions on both sides expressed here and in BBV - it would have been so easy for Blaah not to do what he has just offered last night without any consequence to himself or his reputation.

Instead he made the harder and more expensive choice - that takes character of an impressive nature.

Hope your karma comes round to you in the form of WSOP bracelets and other forms of shippage. Class act.

[EnzoScifo]

Did yer man who said he would send 500 quid to rebel send it?

The offer was 500 if Jason shipped it, so no need, by Poprock as he had 10%

[Denny Crane]

A contract is a formal agreement between two or more people that is enforceable by law. When you buy goods or services you enter into a contract with the seller. Contracts are made up of terms; some of which can be implied terms. Contracts may be written or oral. It is easier to know what the terms are in a written contract but an oral contract is also enforceable in law. Contracts may differ in many ways and there are no hard and fast rules governing what terms should be in a consumer contract. Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer.

The terms with jason have been clear to myself and every other customer of Jason's are that:

You offer to buy.

It's accepted by Jason.

You confirm funds sent to Jason.

He confirms funds received.

Rebel did not complete the terms.

No, there's invitation to treat, offer, acceptance, and consideration. Sending the money is enough to complete the terms.

edit; never mind Ste covered it better before me.

[Flushdraw]

it's not upto IPB to police these things. They get absolutely nothing except for potential headaches from the staking and selling %'s forums.

Good post Ste, except for the above bit. I don't even need to expand.

[8611]

It seems a shame to even keep this argument going, but unfortunately your analysis isn't quite complete IMO.

FYI, the basic essential requirements of a binding contract are Offer, Acceptance, Consideration and Capacity to contract.
There are a few considerations that could be brought up, but an alternative basic contract law summary could be as follows:

Original OP from Jason could be viewed as an "Invitation to treat"
Rebel's Post on thread asking for 2% could be viewed as an "Offer"
Jason confirming it as reserved, could be viewed as "Acceptance"
Shipping of the funds on Stars could be viewed as "Consideration"
At this point a valid enforceable contract has been formed (capacity to contract is clearly not an issue here, and whether or not this is voidable for being a gambling contract I'll ignore as it could be argued either way)

There's very little ambiguity about what was offered and accepted, nor that money was paid, so IMO from a purely legal perspective. What happens after each of the essential parts of the contract have been completed don't really matter unfortunately.

At the end of the day though, the resolution seems adequate.

The problem with this analysis is that in the end rebel gave no consideration for the contract - he was getting his money back if Jason didn't cash. This was unintentional on his part but is what ended up happening. The absence of the consideration is probably the most fundamental thing.

But as you say a resolution has been offered, which presumably rebel will accept sometime in the next 10 days

And everyone except rebel and jason should just leave it now (including me)

[Paddypender]

Tbh i never really post in any poker forums anymore given all the shite that has been happening globally in poker these days this actually gives me hope that the games is not full of cons and arseholes. I'm delighted that Jason had the decency to make the best of a really bad situation for all concerned that basically could've been interpreted in favor of any side. I think Jasons decision is more than fare to both sides and I really dont think it could've been handled any more favorably.
An Outsiders Opinion

[CHDad]

A contract is a formal agreement between two or more people that is enforceable by law. When you buy goods or services you enter into a contract with the seller. Contracts are made up of terms; some of which can be implied terms. Contracts may be written or oral. It is easier to know what the terms are in a written contract but an oral contract is also enforceable in law. Contracts may differ in many ways and there are no hard and fast rules governing what terms should be in a consumer contract. Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer.

The terms with jason have been clear to myself and every other customer of Jason's are that:

You offer to buy.

It's accepted by Jason.

You confirm funds sent to Jason.

He confirms funds received.

Rebel did not complete the terms.

Not sure if I'd describe this post as a delayed C-bet or a slow roll.

Game over.

WP Jason.

[Ste05]

A contract is a formal agreement between two or more people that is enforceable by law. When you buy goods or services you enter into a contract with the seller. Contracts are made up of terms; some of which can be implied terms. Contracts may be written or oral. It is easier to know what the terms are in a written contract but an oral contract is also enforceable in law. Contracts may differ in many ways and there are no hard and fast rules governing what terms should be in a consumer contract. Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer.

The terms with jason have been clear to myself and every other customer of Jason's are that:

You offer to buy.

It's accepted by Jason.

You confirm funds sent to Jason.

He confirms funds received.

Rebel did not complete the terms.

It seems a shame to even keep this argument going, but unfortunately your analysis isn't quite complete IMO.

FYI, the basic essential requirements of a binding contract are Offer, Acceptance, Consideration and Capacity to contract.
There are a few considerations that could be brought up, but an alternative basic contract law summary could be as follows:

Original OP from Jason could be viewed as an "Invitation to treat"
Rebel's Post on thread asking for 2% could be viewed as an "Offer"
Jason confirming it as reserved, could be viewed as "Acceptance"
Shipping of the funds on Stars could be viewed as "Consideration"
At this point a valid enforceable contract has been formed (capacity to contract is clearly not an issue here, and whether or not this is voidable for being a gambling contract I'll ignore as it could be argued either way)

There's very little ambiguity about what was offered and accepted, nor that money was paid, so IMO from a purely legal perspective. What happens after each of the essential parts of the contract have been completed don't really matter unfortunately.

At the end of the day though, the resolution seems adequate.

Finally when it comes to potential changes to the IPB rules, I'd simply ad in the word "how" at the end of the third paragraph so it would read "... it's 100% your decision if, how and who you buy/sell % from/to."

IMO IPB is nothing more than a platform providing a communication tool, a recognisable meeting place and acting as a form of public record for these kind of deals, it is expressly stated they take absolutely no responsibility for anything.

There is nothing stopping a person requiring the proposed 3 steps along with a fourth step requiring signed photo's of elephants to be supplied before a % is considered booked. If someone wants to specifically state nothing is confirmed until it's triple and quadruple agreed by PM work away, it's not upto IPB to police these things. They get absolutely nothing except for potential headaches from the staking and selling %'s forums.

Having said that, if all potential popcorn threads were handled by everyone the way they were in this thread, this place would be even better, kudos to everyone involved, maybe we're all finally maturing!!

Anyway, yet another €0.02 to throw on the pile!

[PokerPiper]

A contract is a formal agreement between two or more people that is enforceable by law. When you buy goods or services you enter into a contract with the seller. Contracts are made up of terms; some of which can be implied terms. Contracts may be written or oral. It is easier to know what the terms are in a written contract but an oral contract is also enforceable in law. Contracts may differ in many ways and there are no hard and fast rules governing what terms should be in a consumer contract. Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer.

The terms with jason have been clear to myself and every other customer of Jason's are that:

You offer to buy.

It's accepted by Jason.

You confirm funds sent to Jason.

He confirms funds received.

Rebel did not complete the terms.

Not sure if I'd describe this post as a delayed C-bet or a slow roll.

Game over.

WP Jason.

[CHDad]

Did yer man who said he would send 500 quid to rebel send it?

[ArmaniJeans]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ&NR

*****
WP blaaaaah. Huge gesture.

[TheDrunkenOne]

between the rail at the EPT thread and this discussion thread Mr Jason Thompkins has been responsible for a hell of a lot of IPB action

all we need now is some twitter posts of celebs he is with and we have Ireland's Phil Helmuth

[Raekwon]

A contract is a formal agreement between two or more people that is enforceable by law. When you buy goods or services you enter into a contract with the seller. Contracts are made up of terms; some of which can be implied terms. Contracts may be written or oral. It is easier to know what the terms are in a written contract but an oral contract is also enforceable in law. Contracts may differ in many ways and there are no hard and fast rules governing what terms should be in a consumer contract. Terms in consumer contracts must always be fair and clear to the consumer.

The terms with jason have been clear to myself and every other customer of Jason's are that:

You offer to buy.

It's accepted by Jason.

You confirm funds sent to Jason.

He confirms funds received.

Rebel did not complete the terms.

[corkie123]

I've bought from Jason only once before. And was very lucky to do so as he tends to book out quite quick.

It was for this years WSOP sides and he was all booked out. Some1 didn't pay so he opened it back up for 1%.

I offered to buy.

He accepted.

I sent money. Then sent pm to say money sent. He replied on thread money received. Very easy. Very straight forward. And I got great value for my purchase.

At the end of the day if this is a business. Jason is kind of like a retailer. He is inviting ppl to make an offer for a percentage of his tourney action. The ppl that offer to buy are doing just that.

They have offered money for a percentage of his action. It is up to Jason or who ever the retailer is to accept or reject the offer.

Just because someone sends you money doesn't mean you have to sell them the item.
in this case he did sell him the product but retracted later when he did not think he was paid but the fact is he was paid and from what we seen he sold on few other times to rebel as well
In this case jason owes rebel nothing as far as I can see.

this been the case rebel does have a case

on jason part i like to say you made a very good offer which i think rebel should take and congrats on doing same

[Raekwon]

Shouldn't I meant. On the phone can't edit from geneva. ( brag)

[Raekwon]

PS very class move on jasons part in the whole matter.

It always strikes me how professionally he conductions his business here.

He should really have to pay for the poor communication of somebody else.

Rebel should really be embrassed tbh.

[cardshark202]

Good man xeyboy

[Raekwon]

I've bought from Jason only once before. And was very lucky to do so as he tends to book out quite quick.

It was for this years WSOP sides and he was all booked out. Some1 didn't pay so he opened it back up for 1%.

I offered to buy.

He accepted.

I sent money. Then sent pm to say money sent. He replied on thread money received. Very easy. Very straight forward. And I got great value for my purchase.

At the end of the day if this is a business. Jason is kind of like a retailer. He is inviting ppl to make an offer for a percentage of his tourney action. The ppl that offer to buy are doing just that.

They have offered money for a percentage of his action. It is up to Jason or who ever the retailer is to accept or reject the offer.

Just because someone sends you money doesn't mean you have to sell them the item.

In this case jason owes rebel nothing as far as I can see.

[AKQJ10]

Nice freeroll