Announcement

**Wesley Harms** · 17-10-12, 08:26

Originally posted by rebel View Post

Jason,

I deleted the post as I didn't want to spoil the rail, as discussed via PM with the moderator I decided to organise after the tournament.
I understand you sell action for a few tournaments a year but I've attached a screenshot of our previous transfer history.
My twitter name is the same as my name, which is how I have booked action from you multiple times over the last year which is the same as my stars name.
As you can see every transaction has been successful up to this encounter where I have always shipped early without any hassle.
I do admit I missed you PM warnings on the 4th of october regarding the deadline even though I had already paid on the 2nd of october, but the reason I asked you to check your transfer history is so that you would realise I am a loyal customer who has used the same shipping method.

I am posting this on the thread as to get unbiased views on this situation.

1st question then is why did you claim it to be a bad beat and claim to be sickened in your deleted post

Sounds like you had accepted you missed out?

**GUNNY** · 17-10-12, 08:42

I think Rebel would have a reasonable case if he didn't basically admit he had missed out.
All the other stuff becomes irrelevant after this.
Even without this this post it would be close but I still believe Jason should not pay.
Rebel is a stand up guy but there are a lot of angle shooters knocking around poker forums.
Jason went about his business taking out all grey area's. Its simple your either on the list of ppl with % or not.

**LuckyLloyd** · 17-10-12, 08:46

Jason, when was that money going to be shipped back to sender? How many days did you leave it sitting in your account?

**Zod** · 17-10-12, 09:13

Originally posted by LuckyLloyd View Post

Jason, when was that money going to be shipped back to sender? How many days did you leave it sitting in your account?

Probably when he could ascertain who the money was from and why it was sent.

This appears to be the first time Rebel tried to purchase through IPB as opposed to twitter, which could explain why Jason didn't action it.

**Wesley Harms** · 17-10-12, 09:21

Originally posted by LuckyLloyd View Post

Jason, when was that money going to be shipped back to sender? How many days did you leave it sitting in your account?

Yesterday as per the screen shot

**8611** · 17-10-12, 09:26

Originally posted by LuckyLloyd View Post

Jason, when was that money going to be shipped back to sender? How many days did you leave it sitting in your account?

What exactly are you suggesting here Lloyd?

That in the context of a 5k buy in Jason was getting some benefit by having €120 in his poker account?

Maybe that the entire staking offer was a cunning plan to deprive Rebel of €120 for a week?

In the context of travelling to Italy and playing a €5k game over several days do you think he should have been fussing about a random €120 coming into his poker account?

Are you honestly suggesting that Jason, having posted here that Rebel's 2% was not being accepted, would then refuse to return it if he didn't cash?

I think you're way out of line. Jason recently shipped me back €3 or something that I had overpaid, after I told him not to, he's not a dishonest person.

I'm an interested party so I'm going to try and stay out of it now, apart from pointing out the ridiculousness of the above innuendo. But the following points are worth noting:-

- it is absolutely clear from this thread that Jason genuinely didn't realise Rebel had shipped, if Rebel had posted here to say he had, that would have been the end of it

- as a result he sold the 2% to someone else. He already massively oversold on the game and its not really fair to expect him to go back on what he had stated clearly on this thread, i.e., that he was not taking 2% off rebel, once he binked, requiring him to pay out again

- I feel massively for Rebel, who obviously shipped but through a situation most likely beyond his control missed out on 30 fold pay day. I'm not sure what the fairest solution is, but I can't see why Jason should lose on it when he unequivolcally said Rebel wasn't part of the stake and where he took another stake as a result.

Jason's offer here, which will cost him personally, seems to be pretty reasonable in the circumstances.

**LuckyLloyd** · 17-10-12, 09:36

Originally posted by Zod View Post

Probably when he could ascertain who the money was from and why it was sent.

This appears to be the first time Rebel tried to purchase through IPB as opposed to twitter, which could explain why Jason didn't action it.

So an amount equal to a 2% share lands in your account on the 2nd, you close sale on 4th but just leave that amount sitting there?

Moreover, the screen provided by rebel demonstrates that he had transferred from this screename on stars before. That other times the contact was effected via twitter seems less relevant.

**LuckyLloyd** · 17-10-12, 09:40

I'm suggesting that it is Jason's responsibility to keep track of incomings to his account. In my opinion this issue is very cut and dried.

**Flushdraw** · 17-10-12, 09:42

Here's my unbiased view on how i see things.

Originally posted by Zod View Post

Probably when he could ascertain who the money was from and why it was sent.

This appears to be the first time Rebel tried to purchase through IPB as opposed to twitter, which could explain why Jason didn't action it.

It's not. He bought from Jason in WCOOP Main Event

Originally posted by rebel View Post

2 % pls

and EPT London

Originally posted by rebel View Post

1% please Jason,

Cheers

Ralph

Jason put up his thread on the 30th September and rebel was the 2nd person to post looking for a % about 12 hours later

Originally posted by rebel View Post

2% pls

Jason put up his list of investors on 2/10/12

Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

List:

kincsem - 3% - paid
rebel - 2% - reserved
Gozoboro - 10% - paid
poprock - 10% - reserved
Fogsy - 5% - paid
Max - 10% - reserved
Chiao - 2% - paid
Nick Abau - 6% - paid

Reserve List:

Imnotfolding - 2%

2 days later, Jason posted this on the 4/10/12 at 1.30am which is 2 days after rebel had shipped on stars

Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

Hey mate, by what means are you transferring the 2%? I haven't heard from you yet.

At 7.30pm he posted this

Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

Rebel, time expired.

Imnotfolding - 2% - paid.

Ok, that's a wrap. I guess just win now!

Jason didn't post again until he bagged up at the end of Day 1 on 7/10/12

This is rebels next post in the thread on 10/10/12

Originally posted by rebel View Post

The joys of living in Qatar where poker sites are banned(inc this one) and clients are not!

Tops my bad beat PB!!

Sickener!

Tid jos, sink her home!!

Ralph

...paddy attempting to rail from the middle east.

To me, this is rebel saying that it's a bad beat that he can't rail, and not a bad beat that he missed out. He says IPB is blocked so obv pokernews etc would be blocked. He still has access to Pokerstars to play and transfer.

---------------------------------------

It's a poxy situation for both Jason and Ralph. They seem to have done business a few times in the past so there's nothing underhand involved. From reading above, the money was shipped on time in advance but it was not confirmed by Jason or by Ralph. The fact Jason posted 2 days after the money was received asking him to confirm how he's going to pay shows that he didn't realise he had received the money.

Jason has sold a ton on IPB over the last couple of years. He's not expected to know every combined screenname/IPB username that he's dealt with over that time. We've no idea of the comings and goings in Jasons cashier over that time either. He could have been selling or transferring to other people over that time. We also don't have access to Jason's PMs sent to rebel either.

It was obviously difficult for rebel to access IPB to check the thread or PMs but i'm assuming he would have gotten an email noting him of an IPB PM either way. I'd imagine that when he posted on the thread on the 10th, he probably hadn't caught up on IPB, but should have responded to Jason at that time and let him know about his shipping etc.

IMO, if Jason hadn't have went on to cash, i would have expected him to ship rebel back his $$ for 2% and if he didn't do this it would have been very wrong due to him pointing out on thread that his time had expired. On that basis, i think it's fair to say that Jason oversold as it was, and then released rebels 2% back into the market so rebel didn't have a % of Jason in this event. Offering him a free 2% of his next EPT is a generous offer and should be accepted as that.

I feel for both parties involved, but not everyone can be a winner. It could have been sorted out more quickly by either person, but Jason would have been up to his balls getting himself organised for travel and preparing to play that the onus should have been on rebel to make sure his % was clarified.

**Strewelpeter** · 17-10-12, 10:08

I believe there is only one relevant question here and that is when was the money refunded.

Its agreed that a % was allocated and the money was shipped before the deadline.

So it is a very simple matter of when it was refunded, if it was before the tournament started there is one result and if it was after it started a different one.

**8611** · 17-10-12, 10:10

Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post

To me, this is rebel saying that it's a bad beat that he can't rail, and not a bad beat that he missed out. He says IPB is blocked so obv pokernews etc would be blocked. He still has access to Pokerstars to play and transfer.

This is the only thing I disagree with Tony. IMO this post was rebel cleary saying, "balls, I missed Jason's messages on IPB and now I'm missing out on the potential pay day". That also makes sense given that he was actually posting on IPB at the time - i.e., he couldn't have been referring to the fact he didn't have access to IPB to rail because he clearly did have that access.

Also, FWIW rebel's account of why he then deleted this post doesn't stack up. He says in the PM to Jason that he didn't want to derail the thread. The post he deleted had contributed to a thread where people had been talking about how he must be sick having missed out. It was magnanimous and said, yeah I missed out, so be it, but good luck to Jason. I thanked the post and was impressed with him taking it so well.

He then deleted that post and posted a different one effectively asserting a claim to 2%, or at least withdrawing his acceptance that he didn't have a stake.

Rebel says this was with a view to not derailing the thread. Obviously a post of that nature, as opposed to his previous one, quite clearly derailed the thread from how Jason was doing to the controversy about whether he had a stake in him, and was checked immediately by mods.

Notwithstanding this I remain sympathetic to Rebel.

Also Flushdraw, re the history of posts above I think there was another post from Jason where he put a time limit on Rebel to respond?

Re it being Jason's responsibility to monitor money coming in and out of his account, from what little I know about him he is always selling and swapping with other players and he and Doke seem to run some kind of staking operation. As such, I'd say that there's a lot of stuff coming in and out and that might colour the extent to which its reasonable to want formal confirmation of who had done what.

**Flushdraw** · 17-10-12, 10:16

Originally posted by 8611 View Post

Re it being Jason's responsibility to monitor money coming in and out of his account, from what little I know about him he is always selling and swapping with other players and he and Doke seem to run some kind of staking operation. As such, I'd say that there's a lot of stuff coming in and out and that might colour the extent to which its reasonable to want formal confirmation of who had done what.

I posted similar to this in the BBV a few mins ago.

I just skimmed the EPT thread so could have missed some relevant posts. I just feel that if i was rebel, i would have done things so different. He did ship the money, but i'm making sure that i let Jason know or at least post on thread to confirm it's transferred. It's how things are done and it needs to be added to the selling % charter. The fact Jason released the 2% and resold means he's losing out on the double. I wonder how many people on here would want to see Jason keep rebels 2% if he didn't cash?

**Closed_Account** · 17-10-12, 10:27

Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post

I believe there is only one relevant question here and that is when was the money refunded.

Its agreed that a % was allocated and the money was shipped before the deadline.

So it is a very simple matter of when it was refunded, if it was before the tournament started there is one result and if it was after it started a different one.

I think it is clearer than that even? Does Blaaaah think it was some sort of angle by not confirming, surely shipping MUST be confirmed as CONFIRMATION in itself. I sincerly doubt Jason does indeed think it was an angle. He booked, then shipped before the date. Gots to pay the man imo. Blaaah obviously an extremely honourable guy and I cant imagine this not being settled in the end.

**8611** · 17-10-12, 10:34

Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post

I believe there is only one relevant question here and that is when was the money refunded.

Its agreed that a % was allocated and the money was shipped before the deadline.

So it is a very simple matter of when it was refunded, if it was before the tournament started there is one result and if it was after it started a different one.

I would ordinarily agree with this were it not for the following which makes it not so simple:-

- % was only reserved and marked as such until payment had been confirmed

- it is clear that Jason didn't know who that money was from so difficult to require him to ship back. Whether he ought to have known is a seperate question, but he posted here to the effect that he didn't and I believe him

- as a result of his view that Rebel had not shipped he then re-sold the 2% to someone else as a result

- I think its reasonable in the context of travelling to Italy and playing a multi day game of that buy in not to be fiddling around with your poker account, particularly in a place with poor internet and possibly with limited access to Stars

Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post

I wonder how many people on here would want to see Jason keep rebels 2% if he didn't cash?

This is also key. IMO having posted what he posted here there is absolutely no way Jason would have kept that money having identified who it was from.

This is not my battle to fight anyway, and my views may be skewed by being the lad who's scooped rather than missed out on €3.4k. So I'm going to leave it at that.

**thedini** · 17-10-12, 10:35

Why was $124.8 shipped back to rebel, wasn't €132.5 paid for 2%.

**Dice75** · 17-10-12, 10:55

The fact is Jason has made his decision as outlined in the (I'm assuming) PM which Rebel has now chosen to make public.

/discussion

(whether you agree or not)

**EnzoScifo** · 17-10-12, 11:28

Originally posted by Dice75 View Post

The fact is Jason has made his decision as outlined in the (I'm assuming) PM which Rebel has now chosen to make public.

/discussion

(whether you agree or not)

My 2 cents... If your only waiting on 1 payment of 2% and that exact figure lands in your account... it should be a no brainer as to who its from and what for.

However, Jason asks for confirmation, dosent get it, cancels the order and re sell's to someone else.

Rebel's post IMO is clearly a FML i cant believe i missed out. I would guess that this was obv the 1st time he had been back on and posted in haste. When he thought about it, he changed his mind. I think if he had not made this post (and especially then delete it) then he would have a case.

Jason has made his decision anyway and is one i agree with.

**The Situation** · 17-10-12, 11:48

I'd give him 1% here!

**Strewelpeter** · 17-10-12, 11:51

Originally posted by EnzoScifo View Post

My 2 cents... If your only waiting on 1 payment of 2% and that exact figure lands in your account... it should be a no brainer as to who its from and what for.

However, Jason asks for confirmation, dosent get it, cancels the order and re sell's to someone else.

Rebel's post IMO is clearly a FML i cant believe i missed out. I would guess that this was obv the 1st time he had been back on and posted in haste. When he thought about it, he changed his mind. I think if he had not made this post (and especially then delete it) then he would have a case.

Jason has made his decision anyway and is one i agree with.

But he may just have well decided to delete it if he checked and found that he had actually transferred and not been refunded.
Its wrong to try to ascribe intentions to people based on scant evidence.

**danutpeddler** · 17-10-12, 11:54

You reserve, you ship, Payment gets confirmed!
Pay close attention to thread to make sure all 3 steps are completed.
Anything else is open to an angle!

**careca** · 17-10-12, 11:55

I don't know either of the parties involved but it seems to me that both have erred and therefore both should take a hit.

50% payout to Rebel (€1705) and the 2% at next EPT is withdrawn.

**careca** · 17-10-12, 11:56

^^^^
didn't see The Situations post before I posted. Agree with him.

**Guest** · 17-10-12, 11:59

Yeah I'd say some sort of meeting in the middle would be fairest tbh. It's just an unfortunate situation and one to be learned from.

**OasisKid** · 17-10-12, 12:12

I think some one mentioned in the thread that rebel had enuf time to contact jason in the thread. 6 hours deadline to contact him considering where he was hardly seems fair.

**jack90210** · 17-10-12, 12:14

Think a meeting in the middle as well should be made. Jason never stated in the OP that you were required to independently post that you had shipped, rebel having previously done business with Jason could therefore easily assume reserving and shipping was enough.

**Flushdraw** · 17-10-12, 12:21

Originally posted by jack90210 View Post

Think a meeting in the middle as well should be made. Jason never stated in the OP that you were required to independently post that you had shipped, rebel having previously done business with Jason could therefore easily assume reserving and shipping was enough.

Yeah i can definetly see this as being an assumption for rebel. The problem from Jason's side is that as far as he was concerned, rebel hadn't paid and his 2% which was only reserved was given to another poster. Very lax from both sides not clearing it up before it came this far and can see both sides

**Wesley Harms** · 17-10-12, 12:30

Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

You have until 6pm today to contact me Rebel. I cannot wait for you to contact me any longer.

Cheers.

We'd be talking 16k if Jason had shipped. Not so easy then. I'm still leaning toward Jason here but it's close

**cardshark202** · 17-10-12, 12:37

I'm not sure why there should be middle ground here. I would say that if he shipped the money, thats confirmation enough. How can you angleshoot once it's shipped?

**Flushdraw** · 17-10-12, 12:45

Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post

I'm not sure why there should be middle ground here. I would say that if he shipped the money, thats confirmation enough. How can you angleshoot once it's shipped?

I'd agree if Jason didn't post on thread asking rebel to confrm, and then post to say that his reserved 2% had fallen through and that i'mnotfolding now had that remaining 2%. At this point, Jason and every other person reading the thread would have been under the exact same assumption; that rebel no longer had a % in Jason.

The possible angle is that rather than kick and scream saying that he paid and that he should have had 2%, he waited until Jason cashed and then posted and deleted a post where he appears to accept he missed out (although i think he can mean he missed out on railing) If Jason failed, he would have asked for a refund but when Jason cashes, he can now make a case for his %. 8 days passed between when he shipped and when he next posted on thread.

I can go either way, but i don't see it as clearcut and could make a case for either.

**digiman** · 17-10-12, 12:46

Originally posted by jack90210 View Post

Think a meeting in the middle as well should be made. Jason never stated in the OP that you were required to independently post that you had shipped, rebel having previously done business with Jason could therefore easily assume reserving and shipping was enough.

Agree with the bolded bit. Don't really think there is much of a middle ground, Rebel posted that he was taking a % and shipped the money, he can't possibly be angle-shooting and has done previous business with Jason. If the money was shipped back before the event started then I don't think Jason should have to pay.

Hateful situation for both people as you could look at it from both sides. Lessons to be learned but I do think it was Jason's mistake if he didn't ship the money back before the event started, hes affectively managing a business and made a mistake so should be held accountable.

**cardshark202** · 17-10-12, 12:56

I'm not suggesting Jason would be trying to angle here, just think he's seeing things from a different viewpoint.
It's possible Rebel gets his money back if Jason doesn't cash, though I don't agree with that either. 2% was invested, not returned regardless of whether there was any artificial confirmation. 2% still invested once tourney kicks off.

**Fiend** · 17-10-12, 12:59

Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post

Yeah i can definetly see this as being an assumption for rebel. The problem from Jason's side is that as far as he was concerned, rebel hadn't paid and his 2% which was only reserved was given to another poster. Very lax from both sides not clearing it up before it came this far and can see both sides

I think Jason is making it super clear what is happening though. from 1/04 to 04/04. This is the selling thread. You reserve then it is confirmed. Rebel reserves then disappears for the whole thread wtf? Jason advises publicly all along the way and gives notification when he confirms Im_not_folding as the recipient of the 2% reserved for rebel.

**nicnicnic** · 17-10-12, 13:02

Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post

You reserve, you ship, Payment gets confirmed!
Pay close attention to thread to make sure all 3 steps are completed.
Anything else is open to an angle!

These are not requirements, maybe they should be but they're not and are not mentioned in the OP/charter.

I'd like to see Kayroo's take on the situation. Hopefully it get resolved amicably.

**Mike** · 17-10-12, 13:13

I think I'm siding with Jason on this.

He cancelled Rebels % in thread due to him not confirming shipment or name.

The way I look at it is if Jason hadn't cashed and Rebel wanted his money back I would agree he should get it back.

**Strewelpeter** · 17-10-12, 13:16

Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post

You reserve, you ship, Payment gets confirmed!
Pay close attention to thread to make sure all 3 steps are completed.
Anything else is open to an angle!

* citation needed

Two of those points are fundamental to the process and without them there is no transaction, the third one has zero relevance. Unless there is a rule book or set of laws governing this that I don't know about.

Originally posted by Howard Finkel View Post

We'd be talking 16k if Jason had shipped. Not so easy then. I'm still leaning toward Jason here but it's close

How is it any different if it is 1K or 100K. The amount has even less relevance than some of the other red herrings being flung around.

Sure it's unfortunate, it's absolutely a sick situation but its not even a little bit close or ambiguous.

The relevant facts as we know them are;
Rebel reserved a stake and the reservation was confirmed
He paid his money.
Jason had days to deal with the payment he did not do anything about it.
Jason played while that money was in his account.

Everything else is just fluff, it doesn't matter who said what when.
On the basis of what is presented here the rights and wrongs of it is an open and shut case.

There is no law here and there is no rule book and as Dice said above there is no obligation on Jason to do anything other than he has said he would do or to comment further.

**MrPillowTalk** · 17-10-12, 13:21

Reserved the % then shipped the money, anything else is not required.

Personally if I reserved and paid for % then I might not even check the thread again until after the tourney, there is no need to confirm particularly if there was past business and transfers between the two.

If I was in Jason's shoes and had a 2% shipment and I didn't know who it belonged too I would keep 2% for that person on the basis that if I win whoever it is will make themselves known quick enough, either that or ship the funds back pre tournament. Once you have the money in your Acc and the tourney starts its booked, end of.

**rockmick** · 17-10-12, 13:28

Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

Rebel, time expired.

Imnotfolding - 2% - paid.

Ok, that's a wrap. I guess just win now!

when jason posted this it should end of rebel case

**TheWitchDoctor** · 17-10-12, 13:30

Anytime time I've ever bought shares online if done through the forum I've always sent a message saying sent and keep an eye on the thread until its confirmed.. Loads of things could happen you could send it to the wrong person, you could be over your transfer limit, you might need to play through money that was sent to you. So just assuming when you send the money its received and seen is a mistake IMO. If you check back the thread or get someone else to do it for you.

Selling shares on this magnitude seems like a lot of hassle to me and I don't seen why Jason should be keeping an eagle eye on his account to see exactly how much money he is receiving. He made a thread to keep track of everything which he kept a close eye on surely investors should do the same.

Jason missed or didn't know the money was from rebel, rebel missed that jason hadn't confirmed and then the deadline he was given.

The bad thing about transfers is your not giving the money directly to the person it just goes into their account and when your dealing with a lot of these things can easily go missed.. Also just cause someone reserves and ships doesnt mean Jason has to sell to that person its his service he can sell it to who he wants so untill its confirmed its not been sold..

Don't think it was an angle but its easy for a player to reserve and ship but not confirm then if there is no cash another person saying o I actually sent you that money and I thought I posted in the thread must be my swtupid phone again etc. can I have my money back...

Shitty situation but if you are sending money out online you should keep track of where its sent and is it seen. Your money your responsability..

**Flushdraw** · 17-10-12, 13:31

lol strewel, you're like a dog with a bone. Take the blinkers off for a second, and stop saying it's clear cut and not ambiguous when it clearly is. Also, all this nonsense about you saying that 'this is irrelevant, and that is irrelevant' is just bullshit.

If i start a selling % thread on Friday looking to play a game on Sunday. You say you'll take 30%. I sell 20% and spend the next 2 days asking you to confirm if you're taking it or not, or if you've shipped. I get no reply and sell the 30% to someone else. If i'm on the FT and then i get an email saying 'you've received a bank transfer from 'Shoutman @clouds', then you think i should pay out 80% of my winnings? Maybe you transferred before i played, but due to the weekend the money never arrived in my account? Who's problem is that?

I put the charter/rules in place for the selling % thread and it covered almost everything and we've had very little incidences that haven't been able to be resolved. We need to add one more t+c that a persons post in the thread is there intent to buy. Either the selling party or the receiving party should confirm that money has changed hands before the event kicks off.

**Line Us** · 17-10-12, 13:31

Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post

You reserve, you ship, Payment gets confirmed!
Pay close attention to thread to make sure all 3 steps are completed.
Anything else is open to an angle!

Don't agree with the third step, I have staked a fair ammount on here and I always assumed, you reserve, you pay and thats it, job done on your side.

The onus is on the stakee to watch the accounts. Saying that though if Jason feels that he was being in any way angled then he shouldn't pay and its completely up to him in this case.

**EnzoScifo** · 17-10-12, 13:33

Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post

But he may just have well decided to delete it if he checked and found that he had actually transferred and not been refunded.
Its wrong to try to ascribe intentions to people based on scant evidence.

He said that he deleted the post below as to not upset the rail. There's nothing in the post that would upset anyone is there? There is no mention of i'm in / out / i shipped /% etc

Originally posted by rebel View Post

The joys of living in Qatar where poker sites are banned(inc this one) and clients are not!

Tops my bad beat PB!!

Sickener!

Tid jos, sink her home!!

Ralph

...paddy attempting to rail from the middle east.

So then if he thought the above was upsetting, why would he post below? I deleted the above non quote as to not upset you but I'm now letting you know the morning of your final table EPT that I will be looking for my 2%?

Originally posted by rebel View Post

Not sure whats happening with 2%, I shipped it on the 2nd via stars like I've done many times before ...

Appreciate yer concern lads.

Biggest sweat ever, in the most literal sense!!

TID Jos

Hope to christ he ships.

**thedini** · 17-10-12, 13:33

Originally posted by TheWitchDoctor View Post

Anytime time I've ever bought shares online if done through the forum I've always sent a message saying sent and keep an eye on the thread until its confirmed.. Loads of things could happen you could send it to the wrong person, you could be over your transfer limit, you might need to play through money that was sent to you. So just assuming when you send the money its received and seen is a mistake IMO. If you check back the thread or get someone else to do it for you.

Selling shares on this magnitude seems like a lot of hassle to me and I don't seen why Jason should be keeping an eagle eye on his account to see exactly how much money he is receiving. He made a thread to keep track of everything which he kept a close eye on surely investors should do the same.

Jason missed or didn't know the money was from rebel, rebel missed that jason hadn't confirmed and then the deadline he was given.

The bad thing about transfers is your not giving the money directly to the person it just goes into their account and when your dealing with a lot of these things can easily go missed..

Don't think it was an angle but its easy for a player to reserve and ship but not confirm then if there is no cash another person saying o I actually sent you that money and I thought I posted in the thread must be my swtupid phone again etc. can I have my money back...

Shitty situation but if you are sending money out online you should keep track it goes where it should and is seen. Your money your responsability..

When he gave it to Jason, surely it's Jason's responsibility.

**spoofingjam** · 17-10-12, 13:33

Originally posted by MrPillowTalk View Post

If I was in Jason's shoes and had a 2% shipment and I didn't know who it belonged too I would keep 2% for that person on the basis that if I win whoever it is will make themselves known quick enough, either that or ship the funds back pre tournament. Once you have the money in your Acc and the tourney starts its booked, end of.

100% agree with this, if money is not shipped back before the start of the tourny the % should be honored

**Wesley Harms** · 17-10-12, 13:39

I think we will all agree that if Rebel hadn't posted the nonsense about it 'being a bad beat and being sickened' then he would 100% have to be paid.

But because of that post, it does open up the possibility of an angle, I'm not saying it is but to post that and then on final table day to withdraw it and raise questions about the 2% just looks ropey

**MrsFlushdraw** · 17-10-12, 13:41

I think we should all butt out and leave it to the two people involved. We are not going to agree here and the outcome will have some bearing on a persons reputation. I think the less said (by those not directly involved) the better.

**Wesley Harms** · 17-10-12, 13:45

Originally posted by MrsFlushdraw View Post

I think we should all butt out and leave it to the two people involved. We are not going to agree here and the outcome will have some bearing on a persons reputation. I think the less said (by those not directly involved) the better.

Don't agree with any of this. Rebel asked for the forums opinion.

It's an unfortunate situation, no reputations will be harmed

**Guest** · 17-10-12, 13:45

Originally posted by MrsFlushdraw View Post

I think we should all butt out and leave it to the two people involved. We are not going to agree here and the outcome will have some bearing on a persons reputation. I think the less said (my those not directly involved) the better.

No one is pulling the piss here looking for more popcorn its avery interesting thread not just because of the money involved.

People here buy %s and sell too after reading the posts and without knowing either party personally i think Jason should pay the man in full.

**Morihei** · 17-10-12, 13:46

Originally posted by MrsFlushdraw View Post

I think we should all butt out and leave it to the two people involved. We are not going to agree here and the outcome will have some bearing on a persons reputation. I think the less said (by those not directly involved) the better.

This is an open forum. Anyone logged in can follow and choose to post if they wish.

**MrsFlushdraw** · 17-10-12, 13:46

Originally posted by Howard Finkel View Post

Don't agree with any of this. Rebel asked for the forums opinion.

It's an unfortunate situation, no reputations will be harmed

We have all debated and argued at this point. I personally think we should leave it be now till we hear the outcome.

**Strewelpeter** · 17-10-12, 13:52

Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post

lol strewel, you're like a dog with a bone. Take the blinkers off for a second, and stop saying it's clear cut and not ambiguous when it clearly is. Also, all this nonsense about you saying that 'this is irrelevant, and that is irrelevant' is just bullshit.

If i start a selling % thread on Friday looking to play a game on Sunday. You say you'll take 30%. I sell 20% and spend the next 2 days asking you to confirm if you're taking it or not, or if you've shipped. I get no reply and sell the 30% to someone else. If i'm on the FT and then i get an email saying 'you've received a bank transfer from 'Shoutman @clouds', then you think i should pay out 80% of my winnings? Maybe you transferred before i played, but due to the weekend the money never arrived in my account? Who's problem is that?

I put the charter/rules in place for the selling % thread and it covered almost everything and we've had very little incidences that haven't been able to be resolved. We need to add one more t+c that a persons post in the thread is there intent to buy. Either the selling party or the receiving party should confirm that money has changed hands before the event kicks off.

Its not bullshit its a matter of trying to cut through fluff and recognise the reality. I'm trying to focus on the core issue and ignore the fluff and whether or not Rebel came back on the thread after the stake was assigned and the money was paid is just fluff.

The scenario you present is not what happened here so is just more fluff. Inasmuch as it is tangentially relevant then yes you solicit a stake, you agree to sell it, you get paid and you do not take explicit action to refund the stake then you have oversold. Tough on you.

I can't see how that rule would add anything but whatever. I don't believe that this problem is anything to do with any weakness in the staking rules. If you want to cover every eventuality then you are going to need dozens of pages. The principal here can only be fair play and in situations like this a community debate as to what is fair play.

An interesting point here is that I notice a bias amongst those involved in staking themselves against my position, I think you all should zoom out a bit and try to take a broader view.

**SatNav** · 17-10-12, 13:55

I decided to go back blonde kinda sick of the brown

**LuckyLloyd** · 17-10-12, 13:55

Originally posted by MrsFlushdraw View Post

We have all debated and argued at this point. I personally think we should leave it be now till we hear the outcome.

This is the consequence of conducting such business through a public forum. They are just opinions, there is (and will not be) any personal abuse.

Personally, I find the suggestion that Tompkins should not be expected to closely monitor his account's in goings and out goings bizarre. It is absolutely reasonable to expect a horse to competently manage funds. 'But he's busy, lots of transfers' doesn't cut it. This seems to be part of the job of a professional poker player.

**danutpeddler** · 17-10-12, 13:55

Originally posted by cardshark202 View Post

I'm not sure why there should be middle ground here. I would say that if he shipped the money, thats confirmation enough. How can you angleshoot once it's shipped?

You can angle by saying nothing and freerolling until the time was right.

BTW I think this is a healthy debate and one that needs to happen considering the amount of selling that goes on here. Neither players reps are in question.

**blaaaaaaah** · 17-10-12, 13:56

Hi mods, would it be possible to cut all posts about this situation and Rebels post showing my pm's and place them into a new thread? I might be a bit selfish by requesting this but I had hoped to keep this thread up until this point, for personal souvenir of my 1st ever final table of EPT and also a reminder of all the support I received. Also I think it would be best for Ipb to have a thread like this and use it as perhaps a learning curve for all selling %'s in the future.

I will make my own post on this new thread (if you sanction the move) in the next few hours.

Thanks.

**Strewelpeter** · 17-10-12, 13:56

Originally posted by MrsFlushdraw View Post

I think we should all butt out and leave it to the two people involved. We are not going to agree here and the outcome will have some bearing on a persons reputation. I think the less said (by those not directly involved) the better.

Originally posted by Howard Finkel View Post

Don't agree with any of this. Rebel asked for the forums opinion.

It's an unfortunate situation, no reputations will be harmed

Agree with Finkel 100% on this.
Its very important for the forum that it be discussed openly and fully.

**Strewelpeter** · 17-10-12, 13:57

Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

Hi mods, would it be possible to cut all posts about this situation and Rebels post showing my pm's and place them into a new thread? I might be a bit selfish by requesting this but I had hoped to keep this thread up until this point, for personal souvenir of my 1st ever final table of EPT and also a reminder of all the support I received. Also I think it would be best for Ipb to have a thread like this and use it as perhaps a learning curve for all selling %'s in the future.

I will make my own post on this new thread (if you sanction the move) in the next few hours.

Thanks.

Good idea.

**ferg** · 17-10-12, 13:57

Without specific rules, in business if money is received to an a/c its up to the account holder to know who it has received from, not the payee.

Unfortunate situation for both involved, lessons will be learned for future % selling.

**Wesley Harms** · 17-10-12, 14:01

The one thing that keeps catching my eye is Lloyd keeps calling him Tompkins. Lol. Surely Jason will do

**Morihei** · 17-10-12, 14:03

Originally posted by TheWitchDoctor View Post

I don't seen why [a player] should be keeping an eagle eye on his account to see exactly how much money he is receiving.

Wow!

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