MTT hand

[merkum wallop]

Just wanted a few insights into how I played this hand. Ill put whole hand up with thoughts and would welcome comments on how I played.

MTT live
blinds 200 400 25
Hero 16k
utg 20K
Villian 18k
mp1 22k

utg limps - not much info
utg +2 villian limps - lag but has good form
mp1 limps - loose weak
CO hero rasies to 2K AAo(in hindsight raise is maybe too low but standard raise was x3 on table all night and you want some action)
button and blinds fold - all others call
flop 8s4s2d
check check check
i bet 6K (im thinking im pretty commited to this hand - my image is that i could be steaming as someone just hit one outter to split a 35K pot several hands ago. So I'm already thinking I'm calling any pushes - should I therefore push here?)
utg folds
utg +2 pushes
mp1 folds
hero calls

villian shows Ks10s and hits Js on turn

Im not that unhappy how I played hand. Should I be? Any thoughts welcome. More about bet sizing pre and on flop.

[shano_88]

You played it fine. Maybe flop bet size is a bit big actually but i still think its ok.

UL.

[handofgod]

nh, wp

[sixtwo]

played right, even if you do raise it 3x pre i still think a donk that puts his stack in with a king high FD will probably call pre as well, so UL

[sligoboi]

Table standard is bullshit..we get our edges from being able to exploit what the table is doing and not doing what everyone else is. If it just happens that you want to 3x it then that's fine but don't do it because the table is doing it.

Also UL his fd got there nothing really wrong with how you played it.

[blaaaaaaah]

Just wanted a few insights into how I played this hand. Ill put whole hand up with thoughts and would welcome comments on how I played.

MTT live
blinds 200 400 25
Hero 16k
utg 20K
Villian 18k
mp1 22k

utg limps - not much info
utg +2 villian limps - lag but has good form
mp1 limps - loose weak
CO hero rasies to 2K AAo(in hindsight raise is maybe too low but standard raise was x3 on table all night and you want some action)
button and blinds fold - all others call
flop 8s4s2d
check check check
i bet 6K (im thinking im pretty commited to this hand - my image is that i could be steaming as someone just hit one outter to split a 35K pot several hands ago. So I'm already thinking I'm calling any pushes - should I therefore push here?)
utg folds
utg +2 pushes
mp1 folds
hero calls

villian shows Ks10s and hits Js on turn

Im not that unhappy how I played hand. Should I be? Any thoughts welcome. More about bet sizing pre and on flop.

I think you could tweek how you played this a bit so that you have enough to get this villain off the hand...here's what I suggest...

Preflop, you know the limpers in this game are going to call any raise pre to just see a flop, so you should be thinking whats the best line of getting my stack in and on the turn is always the best spot as most all in bets are done on the flop and live players like to gamble, anyway I think make it 1400 pre n take to the flop.

Flop, bet 2,800 it's a great flop and you always want action here with AA, plus also this bet is designed to make a flush draw just call to see the turn rather than going all in because your stack is still large enough for him not to risk sticking you all in (maybe) and also once he just calls and a blank comes on the turn you will be able to shove all in for a pot sized bet which will surely make him fold. Of course this wil only work for any card which is not a spade but I believe in the long run this should stop you from being sucked out as much. Just watch your stack size and make sure you play accordingly/smartly to it.

Other than that ul mate.

[jack90210]

I think you could tweek how you played this a bit so that you have enough to get this villain off the hand...here's what I suggest...

Preflop, you know the limpers in this game are going to call any raise pre to just see a flop, so you should be thinking whats the best line of getting my stack in and on the turn is always the best spot as most all in bets are done on the flop and live players like to gamble, anyway I think make it 1400 pre n take to the flop.

Flop, bet 2,800 it's a great flop and you always want action here with AA, plus also this bet is designed to make a flush draw just call to see the turn rather than going all in because your stack is still large enough for him not to risk sticking you all in (maybe) and also once he just calls and a blank comes on the turn you will be able to shove all in for a pot sized bet which will surely make him fold. Of course this wil only work for any card which is not a spade but I believe in the long run this should stop you from being sucked out as much. Just watch your stack size and make sure you play accordingly/smartly to it.

Other than that ul mate.

Interesting. How deep do you think you should be to follow this strategy? Will this strategy not result in your stack size never really being big enough a lot of the time to make the top spots in MTT's?

[Wombatman]

I think you could tweek how you played this a bit so that you have enough to get this villain off the hand...here\\\'s what I suggest...

Preflop, you know the limpers in this game are going to call any raise pre to just see a flop, so you should be thinking whats the best line of getting my stack in and on the turn is always the best spot as most all in bets are done on the flop and live players like to gamble, anyway I think make it 1400 pre n take to the flop.

Flop, bet 2,800 it\\\'s a great flop and you always want action here with AA, plus also this bet is designed to make a flush draw just call to see the turn rather than going all in because your stack is still large enough for him not to risk sticking you all in (maybe) and also once he just calls and a blank comes on the turn you will be able to shove all in for a pot sized bet which will surely make him fold. Of course this wil only work for any card which is not a spade but I believe in the long run this should stop you from being sucked out as much. Just watch your stack size and make sure you play accordingly/smartly to it.

Other than that ul mate.

Don\\\'t like much about the above strategy. You might bring in the blinds pre, let peoples see cards cheaply and could end up folding the best hand on the turn.

If the bolded part is true I would raise more and get as much as I can in the middle at a point I know I\\\'m well ahead. Usually it\\\'s 3xbb + 1bb for every limper. This brings it up to 2.4k but seeing as you reckon you are playing with a few stations go ahead and make it 3k even. You will often end up with 9k+ in the middle on the flop which you will call\\\\shove while having a coke and a smile.

You played the hand very well. You got the money in with the best hand. No reason to overthink this spot.

[BallymoreChris]

I think you could tweek how you played this a bit so that you have enough to get this villain off the hand...here's what I suggest...

I don't want to get this guy off his hand, I just want to have a chat with the poker Gods and find out why they keep getting there

Once the villain has made the bad call with K,10 he is never folding the turn or the river on that flop.
Bad players constantly put people on hands they can beat and to be fair he is not in bad shape against most of your range here plus he will get you to fold hands like AK AQ etc.
I think you have to get it in here on the flop every time. If your thinking of taking a turn card here and folding if the 3rd spade comes then you will be very easy to push around.
This kind of hand will play out in every club in the country on a nightly basis and you will win the majority of them and make money, the villain will obviously loose money in the long run.

PS calling with K 10 suited and jamming with 2 overs and a flush draw is not even close to the worst play your going to see on the live circuit.

[handofgod]

I think you could tweek how you played this a bit so that you have enough to get this villain off the hand...here's what I suggest...

Why would we want to get villain off hand?

Preflop, you know the limpers in this game are going to call any raise pre to just see a flop, so you should be thinking whats the best line of getting my stack in and on the turn is always the best spot as most all in bets are done on the flop and live players like to gamble, anyway I think make it 1400 pre n take to the flop.

Why raise small if we know villains will call anyway? We have the nuts
Why is turn best spot to get money in?

Flop, bet 2,800 it's a great flop and you always want action here with AA, plus also this bet is designed to make a flush draw just call to see the turn rather than going all in because your stack is still large enough for him not to risk sticking you all in (maybe) and also once he just calls and a blank comes on the turn you will be able to shove all in for a pot sized bet which will surely make him fold. Of course this wil only work for any card which is not a spade but I believe in the long run this should stop you from being sucked out as much. Just watch your stack size and make sure you play accordingly/smartly to it.

I assume you mean bet 2800 after making it 1400 pre? If so villain would be correct to call with a fd

Also if we have a psb on turn and villain has 9 outs if we shove we want him to call
Other than that ul mate.

.

[blaaaaaaah]

Interesting. How deep do you think you should be to follow this strategy? Will this strategy not result in your stack size never really being big enough a lot of the time to make the top spots in MTT's?

I think he probably does slightly need a smal few more thousand in his stack for this to work but still I think it should work other than that, this is a live mtt game with obvious fish if there still limping in the 200-400 level, therefore I believe it does not matter what you make it preflop 1400-1600 is more than enough to get out the blinds it's more about not letting them see all 5 community cards holding 1 pair even if it is aces, here is why if you know all limpers are going to call you once they have limped inflating pots to huge amounts that do not reflect your stacks size is not correct, if he limp calls any bet preflop then in the long run it is correct to give him a cheaper price preflop and on the flop but then dropping the hammer so to speak on the turn...this strategy will get all the draws to fold and also has the plus side of if villain has top pair on the flop he will still call you all in on the turn which is what you want, you do not want to be giving him the turn and river to see with likes of flush draw you will loose too often in the long run.

^^^^This would be my strategy for thos type mtt's with live fish player ( no offence to them of course) they are easily outplayed in later stages of the game so all you need to do is get to that stage with a comfortable stack not chip lead.

Also for big mtt's I would use this strategy but more cleverly where my style of play like the above induces players to raise me countless of times and leaves me to flow through big fields with less variance that others as they take way too many flips and inflate way too many pots, of course at some stage your prob going to have to take a flip but at least your not taking 5 flips like most other players, most of my own deep runs in big mtt's throughout Ireland I'm very rarely all in untill last 2 tables or even final table.

So to answer Jack90210 question about does your stack never get big enough to push to top money places, I could only see this affecting it in the slightest way but even that does not outweigh sitting on the sidelines looking in when you could still be in a position to win it, I normally end up with big stacks regardless as postflop is where ppl make huge mistakes and just dump chips to me, example; apart from when we reached the bubble in iwf side event did you ever see my stack at risk or even decreasing at any stage while we played? plus I think Chris has seen many ppl dump chips to me in pots including himself .

At the end of the day this would be a small insight to my live strategies and I would change this strategy once reaching very deep stage and start putting big pressure on preflop. Hope all that was clear enough sorry if I lost anyone

[blaaaaaaah]

.

Because of your stack size.

To get all draws to fold so you can coast your way to winning the tournie by souly outplaying the fish for rest of tournie, it's only 200-400 level.

Yes, bet 2,800 you want him JUST to call on the flop so you can opush draw out on the turn because they wil fold draw as its him nearly all in but they wont fold top pairs as they think there way ahead.

You might want him to call with flush draw on the turn but I wouldn't because i'm comfortable increasing my stack with small risk and outplaying the rest of players in the tournie...you can't do that if your out!

[handofgod]

Because of your stack size.

To get all draws to fold so you can coast your way to winning the tournie by souly outplaying the fish for rest of tournie, it's only 200-400 level.

Yes, bet 2,800 you want him JUST to call on the flop so you can opush draw out on the turn because they wil fold draw as its him nearly all in but they wont fold top pairs as they think there way ahead.

You might want him to call with flush draw on the turn but I wouldn't because i'm comfortable increasing my stack with small risk and outplaying the rest of players in the tournie...you can't do that if your out!

What do you do on a spade turn? or if the top card pairs?

What do you do if you are raised on flop?

Wanting villain to fold draws on turn seems redic to me, you are about 80% favourite, I dont think anyone can pass up those kind of edges.

[DaKlowen]

random bad advice

So you advocate giving donkeys the correct odds to call and suck out but fold when they do, that's not good advice.

[BallymoreChris]

So you advocate giving donkeys the correct odds to call and suck out but fold when they do, that's not good advice.

No not really.
What he is saying is its not ok to get into all in situations even if you are favourite to win the pot. If your not all in you can't get knocked out simple.

[blaaaaaaah]

What do you do on a spade turn? or if the top card pairs?

What do you do if you are raised on flop?

Wanting villain to fold draws on turn seems redic to me, you are about 80% favourite, I dont think anyone can pass up those kind of edges.

It's how I play the fish in those game, like I said and always say it's only how I do it take from it what you will sir. It got me where I am today, total grind but loved it then and still do.

Spade turn depending on if he checks or not...he checks obv I check behind andd evaluate the river.

If raised on the flop stick it in obviously.

My point is not that I am passing up these great odds I am taking the variance out of it by forcing him to commit on draw....he is more than 20% on the flop to hit your forgetting because you would be all in on the flop and 35% chance of busting the tourny.

[blaaaaaaah]

So you advocate giving donkeys the correct odds to call and suck out but fold when they do, that's not good advice.

No. If you do not understand what i'm trying to say then ask, I'm obviously not giving bad advice.

[Starvin Marvin]

if he limp calls any bet preflop then in the long run it is correct to give him a cheaper price preflop

Cant agree with this, the complete reverse is true imo.

Interesting to read some of your thoughts on avoiding variance in big fields though as you do seem to have developed a nice knack of never busting early.

[Wombatman]

Somebody tell me this thread is a level please.

[Mellor]

I agree with blaaaah that stack size is paramounts, esp in regards to size on later streets, and the odds you offer.

If he made it 1400 instead of 2000 then he was stilll getting 3 callers. I don't like betting 2800 into a pot of 6200, but I agree with exactly why/how you arrived at that number, (being able to do this live in real time is a handy skill).
1200/3200/shove results in a better flop bet (and the same PSB shove on turn), but then PF is too small.

I'd rather make it 1600 pre, 3500 on the flop and shove the turn. It's not a PSB shove (c.12 into 14), but its improves the previous be tsizes. Plus, these players are unlikely to be keeping track on the pot size by the turn.



As played;
I dislike the big 2k raise, but seeing as the table is playing loose and apparently its appears to be fine. If this was the same raise you'd make with any other hand its fine, it just isn't a raise I'd make.

Flop, you've got an 8800 pot or so, with 14k behind. The problem here is that either your flop or your turn bet is going to have to suck a little.
So I prob make 5/9k but tbh, there is really little in this.

[8611]

if anything I make it slightly more than 2k we want 1 or maybe two droolers not 5

[ferg]

good thread....

what it highlights for me is the many different ways of playing big pocketpairs against flushdraws at different stages in the tourney...and blaaaaaah, thanks for your insight, i can see this move working earlydoors in tourneys a lot....i know when im on the flush draw a lot of the time i just try and see the turn cheap (obv i push sometimes, but rarely early-on) and if i miss i often let it go to that pot sized bet...

....so really, in essence what this thread says to me the importance of changing strategys constantly throughout the tourney....and doing your utmost to keep variance out of it as best we can.....

[8611]

....and doing your utmost to keep variance out of it as best we can.....

this is fine and I'm all for it, but I'm not sure this is the best spot to do that. firstly by raising less pre you are advocating a course which most likely leads to more people to the flop, thereby significantly increasing your exposure to variance.

and you are doing this with a view to allowing your opponent see four cards but not five. doesn't really make sense as you're deliberately trying to get him to see the fourth card but not the fifth, when the odds of him outdrawing you on either one of those cards are virtually the same. not sure why you'd want to take that risk once but not a second time. granted if the spade falls on the turn we can get away from it whereas if we're all in on the turn and it falls on the river we can't, but I'm not sure that that quite redresses the balance in favour of this play.

thirdly, I don't think as many droolers as we think fold the turn anyway

and most importantly, most people want to get their chips in against a guy with nine outs with one card to go (possibly 8 if board pairs) because its quite difficult to get them in better

now I do agree that its not a bad idea, in a well structured MTT, to avoid encouraging people to draw against you, particulary when you feel you can outplay them better in other spots, I just don't think this is a great spot to do it nor does the reasoning offered stand up to scrutiny

[ferg]

this is fine and I'm all for it, but I'm not sure this is the best spot to do that. firstly by raising less pre you are advocating a course which most likely leads to more people to the flop, thereby significantly increasing your exposure to variance.

and you are doing this with a view to allowing your opponent see four cards but not five. doesn't really make sense as you're deliberately trying to get him to see the fourth card but not the fifth, when the odds of him outdrawing you on either one of those cards are virtually the same. not sure why you'd want to take that risk once but not a second time. granted if the spade falls on the turn we can get away from it whereas if we're all in on the turn and it falls on the river we can't, but I'm not sure that that quite redresses the balance in favour of this play.

thirdly, I don't think as many droolers as we think fold the turn anyway

and most importantly, most people want to get their chips in against a guy with nine outs with one card to go (possibly 8 if board pairs) because its quite difficult to get them in better

now I do agree that its not a bad idea, in a well structured MTT, to avoid encouraging people to draw against you, particulary when you feel you can outplay them better in other spots, I just don't think this is a great spot to do it nor does the reasoning offered stand up to scrutiny

Sorry 8611, my reply was really for MTT's (specifically freezeout, even more so early on), i should of been more specific.....

I know that il be using a strategy like this sometimes.....hopefully it will help prevent that suckout or two.....

Your other points are all merited......i just hate being busted early to a flushdraw that gets there on the river in the earlier levels!!

[Mellor]

8611, I think you are completel missing the point.

if anything I make it slightly more than 2k we want 1 or maybe two droolers not 5

Over betting with a big hand is pretty bad. This is fairly standard stuff. We got 3 not 5 callers, and you are being a bit results based (if he made it 3k and they all folded people would surely say bet less)

this is fine and I'm all for it, but I'm not sure this is the best spot to do that. firstly by raising less pre you are advocating a course which most likely leads to more people to the flop, thereby significantly increasing your exposure to variance.

and you are doing this with a view to allowing your opponent see four cards but not five. doesn't really make sense as you're deliberately trying to get him to see the fourth card but not the fifth,

This is where you missed the point. We aren't deliberatly trying to let him see the forth card, we are aiming to get our stack in by the turn. There is no way we could plan that far ahead.

The small bet is just the standard open bet. It plays better than 2k IF they all call. Given table they might. But as we can't know how many people willl call and if we can't size correctly for the turn. We can only really guess this once we get 1, 2 or 3 callers.

[8611]

8611, I think you are completel missing the point.

This is where you missed the point. We aren't deliberatly trying to let him see the forth card, we are aiming to get our stack in by the turn.

no I don't think I missed the point. As I read it Blaaah was advocating a strategy of letting him see the turn and then making him fold:

I think you could tweek how you played this a bit so that you have enough to get this villain off the hand...here's what I suggest...

once he just calls and a blank comes on the turn you will be able to shove all in for a pot sized bet which will surely make him fold.

I think raising less in that spot is really bad. the capacity of droolers to call and suck out on you because of 'value' cannot be underestimated. the blinds will see it as putting 1200 in to win 10k, and once they do the limpers are definitely not folding. the only good thing about betting small is that it might induce someone to repush.

[Wombatman]

8611, I think you are completel missing the point.

Over betting with a big hand is pretty bad. This is fairly standard stuff. We got 3 not 5 callers, and you are being a bit results based (if he made it 3k and they all folded people would surely say bet less)




This is where you missed the point. We aren't deliberatly trying to let him see the forth card, we are aiming to get our stack in by the turn. There is no way we could plan that far ahead.

The small bet is just the standard open bet. It plays better than 2k IF they all call. Given table they might. But as we can't know how many people willl call and if we can't size correctly for the turn. We can only really guess this once we get 1, 2 or 3 callers.

WTF. If you raise to 1.6k pre there is 4k in the middle by the time it gets to the button.
Now the button has 1.6k to win 4k, SB has to call 1.4k to win 4k+ and the BB and the other 3 have to call 1.2k to win 4k plus.

It is madness to suggest that you won't be going to the flop with at least three opponents. The least you should be betting here to isolate and build a pot for your monster is 2.4k.

Frankly if a noob gave the above advice he would be told to GTFO. Being results based is thinking that the flop will always be this nice, that 2 out of three will fold the flop and that you are always going to be up against a draw.

[Mellor]

no I don't think I missed the point. As I read it Blaaah was advocating a strategy of letting him see the turn and then making him fold:

that was his strategy on the flop, betting big doesn't leave a adequet turn bet, the idea is that its more profitable to bet big on the turn than the flop.

but that wasn't his strat pf (at least imo, maybe he can confirm), you can't possibably see that far ahead, if he had one or two callers, the pot size changes and the bet sizing plan adapts too.

WTF. If you raise to 1.6k pre there is 4k in the middle by the time it gets to the button.
Now the button has 1.6k to win 4k, SB has to call 1.4k to win 4k+ and the BB and the other 3 have to call 1.2k to win 4k plus.

No there isn't. There is 3600 in the pot after the raise. if you are going to harp on about the price offered to other players at least add it up right. If the button and blinds fold, reasonable after a person 3 bets over 3 limpers, the limpers are getting 1.2k to win 3.6, 3/1, out of position, there are significant reverse implied odds.
This is late stage tourney, do you honestly think that raising 3xBB+1 for every limper (24k) apples the whole way to the end????

Frankly if a noob gave the above advice he would be told to GTFO. Being results based is thinking that the flop will always be this nice, that 2 out of three will fold the flop and that you are always going to be up against a draw.

Because that's what I said

[Wombatman]

Re. ^^^^
You still have 40bb so not late by any means.
Like these live LAGs (see OP) are thinking about position or reverse implied odds.

Still harping on