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how to play hands OOP early in tournies

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    how to play hands OOP early in tournies

    just wondering how people play hands like AQ/99/TT in early position early in tournies.

    For instance if I make it 3x with AQc from UTG and get 3 callers. blinds 20/40 . theres 480 in the pot Flop is K105 rainbow. Are we still firing c-bet which will be 300 more from our 1500 stack.

    this hand happened just while i was writing this message .


    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.2 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    UTG+1 (t3105)
    MP1 (t1450)
    Hero (MP2) (t1285)
    MP3 (t980)
    CO (t1200)
    Button (t1588)
    SB (t2045)
    BB (t1155)
    UTG (t6152)

    Hero's M: 17.13

    Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A
    3 folds, Hero bets t200, MP3 calls t200, 4 folds

    Flop: (t475) 7, 5, 7 (2 players)
    Hero bets t300, MP3 raises to t780 (All-In), Hero calls t480

    Turn: (t2035) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

    River: (t2035) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Total pot: t2035

    Results:
    Hero had K, A (one pair, sevens).
    MP3 had Q, Q (full house, Queens over sevens).
    Outcome: MP3 won t2035



    not sure why i bet that amount considering his stacksize. should have pushed/ checked ?
    You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

    #2
    IMO, the most important thing in holdem is position. To answer the specific question you asked, then with 3 callers you have an obvious check/fold hand as a cbet against 3 others will almost always fail on a board with this texture. If you are heads-up, however, you can cbet and hope for a fold, hope for a call and improvement or fold to a raise (mostly). However, your question is too vague for definitive answers. AQ, 99 TT are raising hands in any position when opening the pot but should usually be played cautiously thereafter when out of position.

    Comment


      #3
      you are obviously never folding that for another 480 chips anyhow.


      utg raise for me is 99+ A10+ KQ and depending on the table, suited connectors aswell. alot of the time these hands will miss the flop 66% of the time tbh, and if you don't cbet you are loosing money. but a successfull cbet is made up of a few variables.
      no. of people in the pot; the more people in the pot the harder to take it down with a bluff/cbet
      stack sizes of individuals that are also in the pot; watch this one cos if you make a bluff/cbet and a guy must put in 30% of his chips to call there is a good possibility that he will shove over you and now you are pot committed while holding air
      your stack size: you may have started with 30bbs utg raised 3x and got 4 callers add in the blinds and antes and now you can't make a cbet without committing your whole stack. so unless you hit you will have check/fold.
      table dynamics: whether or not people are floating the flop alot.
      player stats: how loose or tight your oppenent is.

      thats just some of the things that decide whether or not you make a cbet when you miss the flop. iam sure there is more and someone else may point it out for you



      "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

      Comment


        #4
        bad example actually lookin at it again. maybe with OESD and two callers . I suppose as Lplate say so many variables.
        You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

        Comment


          #5
          You fold 88 utg?
          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
          I like this heat - some proper music innit.
          None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

          Comment


            #6
            How should hands such as 44-55-66 be played UTG in the first level of a tournament?
            Do we limp in? do we raise/fold?
            Disaster - Dreamcrusher

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by BrianByrne View Post
              How should hands such as 44-55-66 be played UTG in the first level of a tournament?
              Do we limp in? do we raise/fold?
              I would pretty much always raise. If there's a ton of 3betting going on I probably just fold.

              I want to build a pot with a hand like that, if we bink our set, we have a chance of stacking somone, not just winning 1/4 of their stack or whatever.

              Comment


                #8
                Yeah I'd raise less pre, raise to 150. Obviously call off his shove on flop. As everybody said c/f flop. You'll save yourself a lot of chips in the long run by having more of an understanding of what boards to c bet on and what not, this is obviously a terrible situation against 3 players. Even against 1 player on this board I may c/f if they are check raise happy, which loads of bad players are in early stages of low stakes donakaments.

                Well worth reading a few articles on board textures, Tony "bond18" Dunst has a good article on it, cant find the link now unfortunately

                Comment


                  #9
                  I find alot of players play badly early on in tournaments.

                  Firstly the hands with the most value are all pairs. You should be excited about seeing 22+

                  I like to min raise in the first few levels, I will min raise with pairs, suited connectors. even if there have been 5 limpers and im in the BB with 44 i will min raise. I find that this does a few things, creates an image that i am always raising which lasts for the whole day. It builds a nice pot preflop against several players with hands that play great multiway. Gives me a chance to win a good pot and finally allows me to profitably call anyones 3 bets with hands designed to crack their massive hands.

                  I will do this for the 25-50,50-100, levels. after that i make it 2.5x

                  As for starting hands UTG and early, I will open with any pair if I have 30+BB's, same for suited connectors.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I would not be a big fan of min raising with 22-JJ or min raising at all tbh.
                    22 - 77 or 88 does not play that well 5 handed as people will not pay you off so much in a 5 way pot with top 2 or TPTK.
                    I will usually limp behind with hands like that or suited connectors.
                    Another option is to just raise to rep a squeeze and if anybody takes you on then depending the player and the flop decide how you play it then.
                    A lot of players will be limping with any 2 cards early in tournaments these guys will often just limp fold preflop.
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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Min raising small pairs even in the first two levels of a tourney is pretty bad advice.
                      FWIW OP i like to keep my raises around the 2.3-2.5 range when playing online it means when you are cbetting the flops you miss your keeping your cbet size smaller due to the original opening size.
                      Stack sizes and number of players in the hand will always dictate if i cbet missed flops.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                        I find alot of players play badly early on in tournaments.
                        very true

                        Originally posted by Downtown View Post

                        I like to min raise in the first few levels, I will min raise with pairs, suited connectors. even if there have been 5 limpers and im in the BB with 44 i will min raise. I find that this does a few things, creates an image that i am always raising which lasts for the whole day. It builds a nice pot preflop against several players with hands that play great multiway. Gives me a chance to win a good pot and finally allows me to profitably call anyones 3 bets with hands designed to crack their massive hands.
                        interesting approach

                        i think the problem with the hand the op posted is his stack, he's only got one move in him once he's CB'd. i agree that maybe he shouldn't CB, but he's effectively giving up the pot to most players there.

                        so my main advice is play a tournament with better structure

                        i agree with Downtown's approach provided its a deepstack type tournament AND you're willing to play a few streets, I think there's a lot to be gained by playing hands somewhat unconventionally early on, if only cos you take people out of their comfort zone. you're building the pot and your opponents won't really have a clue what you're at. but if they're good players this approach will be less successful.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                          I find alot of players play badly early on in tournaments.

                          Firstly the hands with the most value are all pairs. You should be excited about seeing 22+

                          I like to min raise in the first few levels, I will min raise with pairs, suited connectors. even if there have been 5 limpers and im in the BB with 44 i will min raise. I find that this does a few things, creates an image that i am always raising which lasts for the whole day. It builds a nice pot preflop against several players with hands that play great multiway. Gives me a chance to win a good pot and finally allows me to profitably call anyones 3 bets with hands designed to crack their massive hands.

                          I will do this for the 25-50,50-100, levels. after that i make it 2.5x

                          As for starting hands UTG and early, I will open with any pair if I have 30+BB's, same for suited connectors.
                          I think this would suit playing live tournies where you start with alot of BBs or online when the structure is deep 3k starting stack and 15/20 min blinds. but in tournies where you start with 1500 for instance in a $12 turbo or even non turbo 180 man, i am always inclined to fold small pairs just because i try not to limp fold or get involved in 3bet pots early with hands that play badly after flop. For instance in a $12 turbo or even non turbo 180 man.

                          but on the other hand sets are by far the most profitable hands in these tournies( any tournie i suppose) and i have also confused and angry when guys turn over wierd hands early . but i just dont think its +EV to be playin these wierd hands in these style tournies. a couple failed attempts at this kind of play can see a guy crippled or busto early
                          You got to have a lot of balls, to play golf the way I do!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I either make it 125 preflop and c/f on that board or I shove preflop. It's a $2.2 tourney, those guys are not there to fold to 4x raises but they will fold their 79etc to shoves and call with any suited ace, KQ suited etc.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                              I either make it 125 preflop and c/f on that board or I shove preflop. It's a $2.2 tourney, those guys are not there to fold to 4x raises but they will fold their 79etc to shoves and call with any suited ace, KQ suited etc.
                              Gordon, You post this alot, its completely the wrong way of thinking.

                              You should stop it, its not how you should be thinking

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Howard Finkel View Post
                                Gordon, You post this alot, its completely the wrong way of thinking.

                                You should stop it, its not how you should be thinking
                                Ehh? No I don't.

                                Are you saying that you don't adjust the way your thinking if you are playing a $2 donkament or a $200 one?
                                Is that the same for cash? Your thinking is the same on a 5c-10c table as on a $5-$10 table?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                  Ehh? No I don't.

                                  Are you saying that you don't adjust the way your thinking if you are playing a $2 donkament or a $200 one?
                                  Is that the same for cash? Your thinking is the same on a 5c-10c table as on a $5-$10 table?
                                  I thinks its important to play every hand as well as you can regardless, why play those tournaments if they dont matter. They matter to the people playing them so your advice is not of any help to them

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I think its a fair enough point that the standard in a 2.20 tournament is going to have alot more cally type players. If he said 'who cares it only 2.20, so go all in', it would be wrong.

                                    His comment is relating to playing the hand in the best way. He simply feels that players will call bigger raises and no want to fold too much post flop.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Howard Finkel View Post
                                      I thinks its important to play every hand as well as you can regardless, why play those tournaments if they dont matter. They matter to the people playing them so your advice is not of any help to them
                                      I agree with this but I don't see why it's wrong to adjust your thinking depending on the skill of your opponents.
                                      I never said that the tournament doesn't matter. Why is my advice no help to them? I tried to offer advice on the best way to play the hand based on my experience.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by RoadSweeper View Post
                                        I think its a fair enough point that the standard in a 2.20 tournament is going to have alot more cally type players. If he said 'who cares it only 2.20, so go all in', it would be wrong.

                                        His comment is relating to playing the hand in the best way. He simply feels that players will call bigger raises and no want to fold too much post flop.
                                        Thank you, that was the point I was making. I'm just not very articulate when it comes to explaining my point of view I guess.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Tony3004 View Post
                                          just wondering how people play hands like AQ/99/TT in early position early in tournies.

                                          For instance if I make it 3x with AQc from UTG and get 3 callers. blinds 20/40 . theres 480 in the pot Flop is K105 rainbow. Are we still firing c-bet which will be 300 more from our 1500 stack.

                                          this hand happened just while i was writing this message .


                                          PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.2 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

                                          UTG+1 (t3105)
                                          MP1 (t1450)
                                          Hero (MP2) (t1285)
                                          MP3 (t980)
                                          CO (t1200)
                                          Button (t1588)
                                          SB (t2045)
                                          BB (t1155)
                                          UTG (t6152)

                                          Hero's M: 17.13

                                          Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A
                                          3 folds, Hero bets t200, MP3 calls t200, 4 folds

                                          Flop: (t475) 7, 5, 7 (2 players)
                                          Hero bets t300, MP3 raises to t780 (All-In), Hero calls t480

                                          Turn: (t2035) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

                                          River: (t2035) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

                                          Total pot: t2035

                                          Results:
                                          Hero had K, A (one pair, sevens).
                                          MP3 had Q, Q (full house, Queens over sevens).
                                          Outcome: MP3 won t2035



                                          not sure why i bet that amount considering his stacksize. should have pushed/ checked ?
                                          Raise pre, check fold if you miss i also throw in some builling and bluffing early on it creates an image that could pay off later! alot of your actions depend on how your post flop game is, how your able to put players on hands and some times finding sweet two and three barrel spots that get them to fold worse, i cbet a lot in multi way pots at this level due to the fact the people have to think you have it if your leading into multi callers, although it does depend on my stack size and what i have behind if i have a pot sized bet behind im prob always shoving


                                          Originally posted by BrianByrne View Post
                                          How should hands such as 44-55-66 be played UTG in the first level of a tournament?
                                          Do we limp in? do we raise/fold?
                                          it depends on the following
                                          1. Position
                                          2. Stack size vs Blind level
                                          3. No. of Limpers

                                          when im UTG or early position i'll play anything above pocket 4's, if im the first to act i will normally raise in short stack games like Sng's i will normally make it 2.3 - 2.5x the blinds, In Later position if it has been limped in a few spot i will happliy limp pocket 22-88's in to catch my set cheap, 99+ i'm 3 betting pre, if im opening the pot i will just go ahead and pot it pre, if I'm 3/4 betted pre i will let go of everything bar 1010+ AQs unless the other person is a complet manic, if the stacks are deeper im know to call all 3 bets as i really do like playing flops!

                                          Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                          I find alot of players play badly early on in tournaments.

                                          Firstly the hands with the most value are all pairs. You should be excited about seeing 22+

                                          I like to min raise in the first few levels, I will min raise with pairs, suited connectors. even if there have been 5 limpers and im in the BB with 44 i will min raise. I find that this does a few things, creates an image that i am always raising which lasts for the whole day. It builds a nice pot preflop against several players with hands that play great multiway. Gives me a chance to win a good pot and finally allows me to profitably call anyones 3 bets with hands designed to crack their massive hands.

                                          I will do this for the 25-50,50-100, levels. after that i make it 2.5x

                                          As for starting hands UTG and early, I will open with any pair if I have 30+BB's, same for suited connectors.
                                          God i dont like alot of what your saying here, but your a decent enough player so it must work obv alot of how you play this comes down to post flop play, but min raising is bad when done pre i feel.
                                          Last edited by pgodkin; 01-08-10, 20:12.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            I'm sure Rory can come on here and speak for him self but I think he is minraising to isolate the blinds. ex if there is 2 limpers then you min raise you normally play the pot with the two limpers and maybe the BB.
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                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                              I'm sure Rory can come on here and speak for him self but I think he is minraising to isolate the blinds. ex if there is 2 limpers then you min raise you normally play the pot with the two limpers and maybe the BB.
                                              Wat?

                                              He has given the reasons why he min raises in his post. None of them were to iso anybody. The opposite, in fact, is true. He wants to build a pot with hands that play well in multi way pots.
                                              Pining for Wa'erford

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                                I'm sure Rory can come on here and speak for him self but I think he is minraising to isolate the blinds. ex if there is 2 limpers then you min raise you normally play the pot with the two limpers and maybe the BB.
                                                Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                                                Wat?

                                                He has given the reasons why he min raises in his post. None of them were to iso anybody. The opposite, in fact, is true. He wants to build a pot with hands that play well in multi way pots.
                                                Yeah all im pointing out is that min raising pre is a mistake and i have seen no clear argurment for it anywhere in any written or online coaching sites!

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by pgodkin View Post
                                                  Yeah all im pointing out is that min raising pre is a mistake and i have seen no clear argurment for it anywhere in any written or online coaching sites!
                                                  I'm not commenting on the merits of min raising but just pointing out thah his reasoning is in his post
                                                  Pining for Wa'erford

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    just saw this now.

                                                    I dont min raise all the time. depends on tournament. table, structure.

                                                    Say you have a 20k stack and hour blinds. blinds are 25-50.

                                                    I look down at 44 utg, I think min raising is great here. Get the same amount of callers I would get if I made it 150 or 50. Obv this depends on the table. I play a pot with 500 now in it on the flop as opposed to 250. Also I find people dont like it.

                                                    Also, same tourny. there has been a few limps. Im on the button with a pocket pair or suited connectors. I might min raise there. I know they will all call but i find the flop will check around to me alot. Basically its the same as limping early but you get control of the pot. Other benefits too.

                                                    I do it very rarely just something that is sometimes good. I only do it live btw. Again sometimes live I will open to 4x pre early. It just depends on factors that are hard to express. Live, I feel I have an edge post flop more so than online so doing things like this pre sometimes have merits.

                                                    I think anything that you do at a poker table that takes someone else out of their comfort zone and makes them play differently to the way they normally do is a good thing.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Yeah try I do get what your saying but two things 1 is that the opening post is questions how to play 22-66 kj-aqo oop in tourneys where starting stacks are 1500 chips, stt


                                                      2. While I do like what you are trying to do with the raise in a live game I feel 3bb with do it better for a number of reasons:

                                                      1. We get players to put more in the pot out of position, as there tons of flops we can bluff or hit!

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                                                        just saw this now.

                                                        I dont min raise all the time. depends on tournament. table, structure.

                                                        Say you have a 20k stack and hour blinds. blinds are 25-50.

                                                        I look down at 44 utg, I think min raising is great here. Get the same amount of callers I would get if I made it 150 or 50. Obv this depends on the table. I play a pot with 500 now in it on the flop as opposed to 250. Also I find people dont like it.

                                                        Also, same tourny. there has been a few limps. Im on the button with a pocket pair or suited connectors. I might min raise there. I know they will all call but i find the flop will check around to me alot. Basically its the same as limping early but you get control of the pot. Other benefits too.

                                                        I do it very rarely just something that is sometimes good. I only do it live btw. Again sometimes live I will open to 4x pre early. It just depends on factors that are hard to express. Live, I feel I have an edge post flop more so than online so doing things like this pre sometimes have merits.

                                                        I think anything that you do at a poker table that takes someone else out of their comfort zone and makes them play differently to the way they normally do is a good thing.
                                                        Do you min raise with 88+, AQ+ also? I know most live players can't hand read or read betsizes very well, but if you're against anyone capable you're going to be in trouble if you don't keep your sizing consistent with your entire range, no?

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
                                                          Do you min raise with 88+, AQ+ also? I know most live players can't hand read or read betsizes very well, but if you're against anyone capable you're going to be in trouble if you don't keep your sizing consistent with your entire range, no?
                                                          I think he's doing this in the first couple rounds when the whole table is new and unknown

                                                          Comment

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