Bad Ruling - Good Ruling on Angle Shoot

[dobby]

HJ as an experienced dealer what would you you have done from the point of when the cards are tossed in your direction ?

Soon as the player throws cards towards a dealer, pull them in and put them in the muck pile before doing anything else and awarding the pot. Regardless of what stage the hand is at.

[Hectorjelly]

You should muck them

[Solksjaer!]

HJ as an experienced dealer what would you you have done from the point of when the cards are tossed in your direction ?

[Hectorjelly]

He means don't show your cards until he says fold or his cards sre in the muck

[aidankk]

Aidan

Definitely add this to the bad plays log

:-). Betting with the bottom of my or anyone's range against a tight player doesn't qualify as bad maybe dick swinging at worst .

That said your right no need for it here really

[The Istanbul]

Aidan

Definitely add this to the bad plays log

[Dice75]

Playing the 30/30 yesterday this hand happened in the first 5 mins

hand gets to the river with me missing my draw heads up against 1 player (having failed to bet him of it on the turn)

Anyway he bets out 1.2 k i raise to 3.6k (have 8 high) (but the river card is dangerous looking and he looks like a tight player) . He then trows his cards towards the dealer face down (without calling).

Then he decided to show what looks a great fold with a set of queens (he never played with me before of course) and i couldn't resist showing the 8 high, and start to stack the chips. He stared complaining that he didn't know there was a raise and says he would have called and blames the dealer.

They call the floor (an experienced floor person that works for larry) and unbelievably they rule he wins the pot and i have to give the chips back. I complained like feck and made it pretty obvious that i was fairly sure this ruling had to be wrong , mainly because he never called.

I asked another experienced tournament director last night and he says its definitely a wrong ruling.

I mean it doesn't matter in the scheme of things its an €80 tourney in the early levels. Still it looks like rewarding the angel shooter.

It does sound ridiculous, but i'm very sure what happened. The only thing ill add is he didn't throw them in the muck he threw them towards the dealer, and had to reach across to turn them over. My main bone of contention is he didnt say he was calling until i turned my bluff over and he saw he was ahead and made a silly fold.. In the scheme of things it didn't matter. My feeling if the TD didn't fully understand or believe what happened, despite me being fairly clear with him.

?

[aidankk]

I'm disagree with everyone so far. In football there's a term called the corridor of uncertainty, which is when a ball is hit into a dangerous area behind the defenders but in front of the goalkeeper. This scenario reminds me of that term. What exactly constitutes a fold isn't always clear, and the TDA rules don't really help. The dealer pushing a pot to someone means nothing, it has no standing in the rules. Similarly throwing your cards face down in front of you seems like a fold, but actually technically isn't. There's nothing to stop you pulling the cards back and changing your mind (although this practice should definitely end up with you getting a warning) Its good practice for a dealer to muck cards immediately to stop this type of scenario developing.

Also as described this also sounds like other parties at the table would have a different memory of what exactly happened.

It does sound ridiculous, but i'm very sure what happened. The only thing ill add is he didn't throw them in the muck he threw them towards the dealer, and had to reach across to turn them over. My main bone of contention is he didnt say he was calling until i turned my bluff over and he saw he was ahead and made a silly fold.. In the scheme of things it didn't matter. My feeling if the TD didn't fully understand or believe what happened, despite me being fairly clear with him.

[pokerhand]

I'm disagree with everyone so far. In football there's a term called the corridor of uncertainty, which is when a ball is hit into a dangerous area behind the defenders but in front of the goalkeeper. This scenario reminds me of that term. What exactly constitutes a fold isn't always clear, and the TDA rules don't really help. The dealer pushing a pot to someone means nothing, it has no standing in the rules. Similarly throwing your cards face down in front of you seems like a fold, but actually technically isn't. There's nothing to stop you pulling the cards back and changing your mind (although this practice should definitely end up with you getting a warning) Its good practice for a dealer to muck cards immediately to stop this type of scenario developing.

Also as described this also sounds like other parties at the table would have a different memory of what exactly happened.

The way he described it is that he threw it into the muck, not in front of him. probably would help to have a muck/betting line, but action as described seem clear enough.

[Hectorjelly]

I'm disagree with everyone so far. In football there's a term called the corridor of uncertainty, which is when a ball is hit into a dangerous area behind the defenders but in front of the goalkeeper. This scenario reminds me of that term. What exactly constitutes a fold isn't always clear, and the TDA rules don't really help. The dealer pushing a pot to someone means nothing, it has no standing in the rules. Similarly throwing your cards face down in front of you seems like a fold, but actually technically isn't. There's nothing to stop you pulling the cards back and changing your mind (although this practice should definitely end up with you getting a warning) Its good practice for a dealer to muck cards immediately to stop this type of scenario developing.

Also as described this also sounds like other parties at the table would have a different memory of what exactly happened.

[dobby]

Aidan, I'd actually contact Larry about that. Aside from the fact the ruling was butchered it sounds like a sizeable pot for the first level too. Sounds like his dealer and floor could do with some training

[pokerhand]

Anyway he bets out 1.2 k i raise to 3.6k (have 8 high) (but the river card is dangerous looking and he looks like a tight player) . He then trows his cards towards the dealer face down (without calling).

As far as I can see this is the only relevent part. If the TD determined otherwise, then either (a) he was misinformed of the action, or (b) there is more to the story that he was informed of that is not being told here.

As it stands, terrible ruling and need to understand TD thinking and relevent rules he is basing this on, but I guess he misunderstood the action and it wasn't made clear to him.

[Arazi]

Hardly the dealers fault, they pushed the pot towards us. Absolutely shocking ruling.
Are there any excuses for the flooor person, eg was the other player a cardboard gangsta type?
Deffo should have called Larry over but pretty amazing that you would have had to.

[Flushdraw]

He then trows his cards towards the dealer face down (without calling).

Then he decided to show what looks a great fold with a set of queens (he never played with me before of course) and i couldn't resist showing the 8 high, and start to stack the chips.

C and the dealer pushed me the pot .

At what stage does the dealer push the pot towards you? It always irks me when the dealer doesn't pull the folded players hand into the muck immediately, before doing anything with the pot.

[Dice75]

A . I put out 3600 exactly in chips
B . And said the amount

C and the dealer pushed me the pot .

I was astonished I have to admit .

Well if thats the case id love to hear the TDs side of it and reasons.

[aidankk]

Assuming the dealer knew you had raised I don't see how the pot can be awarded to the other player.


I suppose the questions are -

Did you...

A) put out 3.6k in more than a single chip, or if not....
B) did you say "raise" and the dealer acknowledge this

If either the above happened i cant see how you don't win the pot.

I'm guessing maybe you threw out 1 x 5k chip, probably said raise but was not heard by dealer and it was assumed a call?

A . I put out 3600 exactly in chips
B . And said the amount

C and the dealer pushed me the pot .

I was astonished I have to admit .

[Dice75]

Don't really understand this.

Why is he throwing a set of queens away if he doesn't realise there's a raise?

Is he claiming he mucked after thinking you called? Without waiting to see that he was beat?

That's incredible.

Actually on re-reading it, ^^^^^this too.

[dobby]

A good reason to never show your hand unless you have to. Lesson learned. UL.

Regards the ruling, I'd have asked for Larry himself to come over or at least another floor person. It's an absolutely terrible ruling.

[Lazare]

Don't really understand this.

Why is he throwing a set of queens away if he doesn't realise there's a raise?

Is he claiming he mucked after thinking you called? Without waiting to see that he was beat?

That's incredible.

[Dice75]

Assuming the dealer knew you had raised I don't see how the pot can be awarded to the other player.


I suppose the questions are -

Did you...

A) put out 3.6k in more than a single chip, or if not....
B) did you say "raise" and the dealer acknowledge this

If either the above happened i cant see how you don't win the pot.

I'm guessing maybe you threw out 1 x 5k chip, probably said raise but was not heard by dealer and it was assumed a call?

[aidankk]

Playing the 30/30 yesterday this hand happened in the first 5 mins

hand gets to the river with me missing my draw heads up against 1 player (having failed to bet him of it on the turn)

Anyway he bets out 1.2 k i raise to 3.6k (have 8 high) (but the river card is dangerous looking and he looks like a tight player) . He then trows his cards towards the dealer face down (without calling).

Then he decided to show what looks a great fold with a set of queens (he never played with me before of course) and i couldn't resist showing the 8 high, and start to stack the chips. He stared complaining that he didn't know there was a raise and says he would have called and blames the dealer.

They call the floor (an experienced floor person that works for larry) and unbelievably they rule he wins the pot and i have to give the chips back. I complained like feck and made it pretty obvious that i was fairly sure this ruling had to be wrong , mainly because he never called.

I asked another experienced tournament director last night and he says its definitely a wrong ruling.

I mean it doesn't matter in the scheme of things its an €80 tourney in the early levels. Still it looks like rewarding the angel shooter.