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    "he called me with King High" :-0

    This wont make it into my stupid plays log as its not a stupid play but id be interested to see if anyone else thinks this kind of thing is fairly normal, and what they think of the call.

    blinds 2k4k 300 ante. late day 1 warmup

    villain cutoff about 70k raises to 11k (raising to much for my liking)

    me BB called the 11k with j8os and about 70k

    flop qq4.

    me check him 14-16k , me all in .

    He though for a few seconds and called with k7 os.

    I know he was right but i haven't played with him that much and it seems either super advanced play or madness and im not sure which.

    From my point of view seems a very easy steal for me when he is raising too much and on that board is very unlikely to have anything.

    He gave me a fair berating telling me i dint know what i was doing etc (obv after the 8 hits the river). I view my steal as normal enough once or twice a tournament when needs must.

    Its just the looks of other around in shock wonder how the feck all that is in the middle with no pairs no draw..
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    #2
    Originally posted by aidankk View Post
    This wont make it into my stupid plays log as its not a stupid play but id be interested to see if anyone else thinks this kind of thing is fairly normal, and what they think of the call.

    blinds 2k4k 300 ante. late day 1 warmup

    villain cutoff about 70k raises to 11k (raising to much for my liking)

    me BB called the 11k with j8os and about 70k

    flop qq4.

    me check him 14-16k , me all in .

    He though for a few seconds and called with k7 os.

    I know he was right but i haven't played with him that much and it seems either super advanced play or madness and im not sure which.

    From my point of view seems a very easy steal for me when he is raising too much and on that board is very unlikely to have anything.

    He gave me a fair berating telling me i dint know what i was doing etc (obv after the 8 hits the river). I view my steal as normal enough once or twice a tournament when needs must.

    Its just the looks of other around in shock wonder how the feck all that is in the middle with no pairs no draw..
    What did you think he had and what are you trying to rep with the check-jam?

    You are automatically ruling out any pair from his range as well as any Queen?

    Comment


      #3
      You hit the 8, it was the correct play obv.
      People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
      Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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      Comment


        #4
        All I can confirm is I would almost certainly have been one of those "wtf just happened" heads at the table, I think my next thought would have been collusion [emoji23]

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
          What did you think he had and what are you trying to rep with the check-jam?

          You are automatically ruling out any pair from his range as well as any Queen?
          His range is fairly big and on a qq4 board i suppose i think this will get though a huge percentage of the time. Pairs are part of his range but i thought his range was very big ( as it turned out with k7)

          Also ill go for it at times on not so much a tell but feeling that he is continue betting regardless and my feeling is he has f all.

          Im pretty much always going to let a frequent raiser make his continuation bet on that flop before applying the pressure. I view it as free money enough of the time to make sense. In fairness to him it wasn't free money and he made a call not many will make. Hope i remember his face in case i try the same thing again
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          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by aidankk View Post
            His range is fairly big and on a qq4 board i suppose i think this will get though a huge percentage of the time. Pairs are part of his range but i thought his range was very big ( as it turned out with k7)

            Also ill go for it at times on not so much a tell but feeling that he is continue betting regardless and my feeling is he has f all.

            Im pretty much always going to let a frequent raiser make his continuation bet on that flop before applying the pressure. I view it as free money enough of the time to make sense. In fairness to him it wasn't free money and he made a call not many will make. Hope i remember his face in case i try the same thing again
            Why will it get through a huge percentage of the time?

            Comment


              #7
              I had to check the date the thread was created, I was expecting it to be sometime in 2008.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                What did you think he had and what are you trying to rep with the check-jam?

                You are automatically ruling out any pair from his range as well as any Queen?
                Any time i've seen this play, it's either air or a scared 4x

                You might fold out 22-33 and some 89o type hands, but villain might feel like he has 2 overcards or even be ahead and make a call. Can't imagine you ever shove a Qx so villain shouldn't fold any pair. I hate the call preflop btw.You have 17bb and calling almost 3bb with J8o. I know people defend a lot shallower from the blinds these days, but that's usually to a min raise with a hand more connected than J8o.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
                  I had to check the date the thread was created, I was expecting it to be sometime in 2008.
                  I'm in this camp 😂😂😂 will comment better later when I've had some time to
                  Think about it and few beers in me

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                    Any time i've seen this play, it's either air or a scared 4x

                    You might fold out 22-33 and some 89o type hands, but villain might feel like he has 2 overcards or even be ahead and make a call. Can't imagine you ever shove a Qx so villain shouldn't fold any pair. I hate the call preflop btw.You have 17bb and calling almost 3bb with J8o. I know people defend a lot shallower from the blinds these days, but that's usually to a min raise with a hand more connected than J8o.

                    J8o is the new Q10s

                    I agree pretty much with all you say btw.
                    Apart from the shoving range.
                    His hand looks like a small mid pair so I don't hate the shove. No Q 100% but a scared 4x up to 10s I think plays this the same way. (People still call small pairs in the blinds right?)
                    People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Horrific and Horrific

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                        up to 10s I think plays this the same way. (People still call small pairs in the blinds right?)
                        With 17bb in the bb facing a guy opening from LP that is (raising to much for my liking), we should be shoving a lot of our range, including all of the pairs you mention so can't see how they are in the hero's range.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          never comment on these threads as I'm still waiting on the game to catch up on me.

                          However Preflop i'd prefer to jam preflop . After that the impending car crash is full of drivers with their lights switched out

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Pre is terribad. Truly awful.

                            Flop is ok, at least you put some thought behind it. Was a good call by him.
                            "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                            Comment


                              #15
                              [QUOTE=Mike Bullocks;1044917]never comment on these threads as I'm still waiting on the game to catch up on me.

                              However Preflop i'd prefer to jam preflop . After that the impending car crash is full of drivers with their lights switched out[/QUOTE]

                              looks like on the face of it you accurately describing my game in general
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                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                                Pre is terribad. Truly awful.

                                Flop is ok, at least you put some thought behind it. Was a good call by him.
                                Preflop is a a standard call. Calling 7k to win about 27k. You need around 25% equity.

                                On this flop, his range dominates yours so check shoving doesn't really make sense. (Both of you miss most of the time but your range is capped) Its not how you would play a queen either so your play is really unbalanced. A good strategy might be to call all two pair plus, and mix in some floats with hands that have the best equity, so backdoor draws.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  From villan's point of view you never have a strong ace here, and never have a queen, so the call becomes somewhat reasonable, in line with Flushdraw's post.

                                  Since the raise pf was chunky - approx. 2.75 BB, off sub 20 BB stacks, there's approx. 11-12 BB in the middle when you check raise, so his pot odds are very good.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                    Preflop is a a standard call. Calling 7k to win about 27k. You need around 25% equity.
                                    No. You're calling 7k to see a flop in a 27k pot, out of position, with ~60k behind. There is an ocean of difference.
                                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Hand played itself.

                                      Don't think either of you can get away from this flop.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Lots of decent replies.

                                        A lot of the time ill just ship pre flop but that can get called more often and easier than the post flop ship, depending on flop i suppose.

                                        I thought he was raising too much in the short time i was there and in truth sometimes i like to shove back (regardless) . I would probably have foolishly showed the j8 if the shove got through.

                                        I probably need to get rid of these from my game a bit in these tournaments,, but i looked over at him and said f* it he has nothing. ( in fairness he outplayed me and i wouldn't be at all surprised if he has seen me do that before and was going to call anyway as he called straight away)
                                        Last edited by aidankk; 10-10-17, 10:52.
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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                                          No. You're calling 7k to see a flop in a 27k pot, out of position, with ~60k behind. There is an ocean of difference.
                                          Even if you assume that K7o is the bottom of his range you have 37% equity vs his range.

                                          I don't call given stack depth and as you alluded to realising your equity is the issue here.

                                          You technically have the equity vs his range but I don't think you realise it often enough to call.

                                          That said I think a call pre is a lot better than shove PF

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Would fold this preflop about 110% of the times. I am a bit of a nit though.
                                            "Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                                              No. You're calling 7k to see a flop in a 27k pot, out of position, with ~60k behind. There is an ocean of difference.
                                              Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                              Even if you assume that K7o is the bottom of his range you have 37% equity vs his range.

                                              I don't call given stack depth and as you alluded to realising your equity is the issue here.

                                              You technically have the equity vs his range but I don't think you realise it often enough to call.

                                              That said I think a call pre is a lot better than shove PF
                                              Code:
                                              Hold'em Simulation ? 
                                              614,717,136 trials (Exhaustive)
                                              Hand	Equity	Wins	Ties
                                              Js 8 c	35.26%	210,719,548	12,120,832
                                              30%	64.74%	391,876,756	12,120,832
                                              You need 25% equity and you have about 35% - this isn't even close; folding is terrible. Sure you might underrealise a little but 10% is way to big to an edge to give up. In a Tournament with antes its quite rare you should fold your BB to a late position raise.
                                              You should be calling here with 25o.

                                              To show how much of a slam dunk call it is look at this:

                                              Code:
                                              Hand	Equity	Wins	Ties
                                              jc 8d	31.37%	93,456,363	3,211,848
                                              15%	68.63%	206,409,597	3,211,848
                                              Even against a very tight opening range you are making quite a lot of chips by calling.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                HJ is right anyone arguing with him
                                                Is lighting money on fire regging for a tourney

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                  calcs
                                                  Why in the name of greek buggery are you using all in equity to decide whether to see a flop??? The formulae are completely different. This decision is decided by pot odds + implied odds - reverse implied odds. Your pot odds are good, but your implied odds are low(because you are shallow and out of position and your opponent doesn't suck) and your reverse implied odds are humungousmega mclargehuge.
                                                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                    Code:
                                                    Hold'em Simulation ? 
                                                    614,717,136 trials (Exhaustive)
                                                    Hand	Equity	Wins	Ties
                                                    Js 8 c	35.26%	210,719,548	12,120,832
                                                    30%	64.74%	391,876,756	12,120,832
                                                    You need 25% equity and you have about 35% - this isn't even close; folding is terrible. Sure you might underrealise a little but 10% is way to big to an edge to give up. In a Tournament with antes its quite rare you should fold your BB to a late position raise.
                                                    You should be calling here with 25o.

                                                    To show how much of a slam dunk call it is look at this:

                                                    Code:
                                                    Hand	Equity	Wins	Ties
                                                    jc 8d	31.37%	93,456,363	3,211,848
                                                    15%	68.63%	206,409,597	3,211,848
                                                    Even against a very tight opening range you are making quite a lot of chips by calling.
                                                    I'm not disputing anything from an equity perspective as I showed approx same numbers.
                                                    That said I would be curious as to what % of the time you "underrealise" your equity.
                                                    I don't have any flopzilla or anything like that anymore myself.
                                                    Would you imagine you realise your equity 95%+ of the time?

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                      folding is terrible.....
                                                      You should be calling here with 25o.
                                                      Originally posted by chips1234 View Post
                                                      HJ is right anyone arguing with him
                                                      Is lighting money on fire regging for a tourney
                                                      Right, i'm not buyin this at all. Not even one little bit. Are you assuming everyone here is Phil Ivey and can play post flop perfect all the time, or are you even taking into account the standard of player?

                                                      I said i hate calling pre, and you're both saying it's a snap call and lolfolding. I'm happy to meet in the middle but there's too many variables whether a player is stacking off on any jack, any 8, any draw. Calling here with 25o is disgusting imo.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                                                        I'm not disputing anything from an equity perspective as I showed approx same numbers.
                                                        That said I would be curious as to what % of the time you "underrealise" your equity.
                                                        I don't have any flopzilla or anything like that anymore myself.
                                                        Would you imagine you realise your equity 95%+ of the time?

                                                        You use all in equity because its the best approximation you can find. Obviously its not perfect, but you can use some general guidelines. Suited hands will tend to overrealise, unsuited hands underrealise. Similarly for position. The better your opponent is the worse you will tend to realise, but that said if don't you practice being in those spots you will never improve. All those factors will effect your decision - but only when its close. a 10% equity edge isn't close.

                                                        Not defending your BB enough is probably one of the biggest leaks most regs have in tournaments. Its probably not a leak to defend close to 100% of the time once antes are in .

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                          Right, i'm not buyin this at all. Not even one little bit. Are you assuming everyone here is Phil Ivey and can play post flop perfect all the time, or are you even taking into account the standard of player?

                                                          I said i hate calling pre, and you're both saying it's a snap call and lolfolding. I'm happy to meet in the middle but there's too many variables whether a player is stacking off on any jack, any 8, any draw. Calling here with 25o is disgusting imo.
                                                          The game has moved on from where you can fold hands like this. People are opening the cutoff and button appropriately, so your equity with any two cards is always pretty high. Think about A2o opening the button (which is obviously standard), and j8o defending. Who will over realise? Think about the equity J8 gives away by folding. You are making a huge mistake here by folding.

                                                          You don't need to play the flop perfectly to call here pre. The flop is just another decision point where you can take all the factors into play. A lot of the time you will flop nothing and can happily check fold. Some of the time you will flop a good hand and can check raise all in hoping they will call.

                                                          You can take the standard of the player into account if you like, but to be honest that should only affect your decision if its close.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                                                            Why in the name of greek buggery are you using all in equity to decide whether to see a flop??? The formulae are completely different. This decision is decided by pot odds + implied odds - reverse implied odds. Your pot odds are good, but your implied odds are low(because you are shallow and out of position and your opponent doesn't suck) and your reverse implied odds are humungousmega mclargehuge.
                                                            I don't understand any of this.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                              You use all in equity because its the best approximation you can find. Obviously its not perfect, but you can use some general guidelines. Suited hands will tend to overrealise, unsuited hands underrealise. Similarly for position. The better your opponent is the worse you will tend to realise, but that said if don't you practice being in those spots you will never improve. All those factors will effect your decision - but only when its close. a 10% equity edge isn't close.

                                                              Not defending your BB enough is probably one of the biggest leaks most regs have in tournaments. Its probably not a leak to defend close to 100% of the time once antes are in .
                                                              As I said no dispute on the assumptions taken as I showed the same in terms of equity. I said I probably pass, maybe in game I call but can't be sure, assume I fold.

                                                              No arguing that giving up 10% edges is sub-optimal.

                                                              I completely understand everything your saying but I would be curious as to an approximation of how often you realise your equity in this particular spot.

                                                              As I asked would you imagine you realise your equity 95% of the time? I would have thought you dont realise your equity more than a little. No particular figure just a general assumption

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Its almost impossible to answer that question, there are too many things to consider. Also, I think its framed in a somewhat misleading way...unless the hand is checked down to the river neither player will fully realise their equity. For instance, say you flop nothing and check fold to a bet from the other guy who has made a pair, then you haven't realised your equity (since you may of hit a jack on the turn or river). So 99% of the time (basically any time there is a fold post flop) one of the players isn't going to fully realise. Thats why suited hands do better than non suited hands.

                                                                So my answer would be I think in any one hand either one of us is very likely not to realise our equity, but over the course of thousands of hands I will tend to realise my equity pretty well. Also against the opponent detailed above I would expect to do better than an equity sim might suggest.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  9
                                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                  Its almost impossible to answer that question, there are too many things to consider. Also, I think its framed in a somewhat misleading way...unless the hand is checked down to the river neither player will fully realise their equity. For instance, say you flop nothing and check fold to a bet from the other guy who has made a pair, then you haven't realised your equity (since you may of hit a jack on the turn or river). So 99% of the time (basically any time there is a fold post flop) one of the players isn't going to fully realise. Thats why suited hands do better than non suited hands.

                                                                  So my answer would be I think in any one hand either one of us is very likely not to realise our equity, but over the course of thousands of hands I will tend to realise my equity pretty well. Also against the opponent detailed above I would expect to do better than an equity sim might suggest.
                                                                  I understand there are a ton of factors to consider hence the approximation.
                                                                  My point was simply related to stack depth.

                                                                  Assume you realise your equity 99.99% (or more) of the time with >1000bbs and you realise it 100% of the time with <2bbs.

                                                                  I was simply wondering if you run this spot 1000 times and given opponent etc like you said I was curious as to how often you realise your equity.
                                                                  Stack depth is obviously relevant to realising equity.

                                                                  My argument would be whether at this stack depth you realise your equity close to 100% or even greater than an equity sim as you suggested is all.

                                                                  https://www.totalonlinepoker.com/sin...ty-Realization
                                                                  Last edited by Murdrum; 11-10-17, 10:51. Reason: Explains it better than me but same idea

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    This thread proves that poker isn't dead thank you

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by chips1234 View Post
                                                                      This thread proves that poker isn't dead thank you
                                                                      lmao. I've played with you enough times to know that you don't call here with ATC at this stack depth. You're tighter than me from the blinds, and i'm quite loose (but obviously not loose enough). I'd happily play with a player that calls here with J8o every time and plays fit or fold and allows me to play perfect.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                        lmao. I've played with you enough times to know that you don't call here with ATC at this stack depth. You're tighter than me from the blinds, and i'm quite loose (but obviously not loose enough). I'd happily play with a player that calls here with J8o every time and plays fit or fold and allows me to play perfect.
                                                                        You've played about 300
                                                                        Hands v me solid sample size 😂😂

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                          I don't understand any of this.
                                                                          Try reading it again
                                                                          "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            I've read it again, I still don't understand it. Implied odds and reverse implied odds aren't terms that have any baring on what we are discussing. The guy is raising k7o, so worrying about the tiny chance we are dominated is pretty silly.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Try reading it again Hector?


                                                                              I've no idea why, just trying to be helpful
                                                                              "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Jesus Andy, even the fellas in the fitz are watching Doug Polk videos these days!

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                  I've read it again, I still don't understand it. Implied odds and reverse implied odds aren't terms that have any baring on what we are discussing. The guy is raising k7o, so worrying about the tiny chance we are dominated is pretty silly.
                                                                                  Level for sure . Even some results based thinking thrown in . You didn't add in the new sugar tax to stop people sweetening the pot.

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                                                                    lmao. I've played with you enough times to know that you don't call here with ATC at this stack depth. You're tighter than me from the blinds, and i'm quite loose (but obviously not loose enough). I'd happily play with a player that calls here with J8o every time and plays fit or fold and allows me to play perfect.
                                                                                    I'm certainly not playing fit or fold if i play from the BB here, although it sounds like your talking about some one else..;-)
                                                                                    sigpic
                                                                                    Longshotvalue.com

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                      I've read it again, I still don't understand it. Implied odds and reverse implied odds aren't terms that have any baring on what we are discussing. The guy is raising k7o, so worrying about the tiny chance we are dominated is pretty silly.
                                                                                      As far as I can tell you're omitting fold equity from your decision entirely. Our opponent is going to make us fold a tremendous amount of time. We're going to have to shove to generate any fold equity of our own, and we don't really want to be doing that with J high. Our opponent is going to cbet close to 100% of flops, and if they barrel the turn, our resulting shove generates almost no fold equity. We have to consider all of these scenarions in our decision. I know reverse implied odds isn't a completely accurate term to use for this, but nevertheless will be very difficult to win the hand without risking all your chips with a bag of spanners.

                                                                                      Showdown is only a part of our considerations, and using preflop all-in EV only tells us about our potential showdown value. Given the very high probability that the hand won't go to showdown, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that all-in EV is a really terrible way to decide whether or not to see this flop. You can't just decide that something is too complex, therefore it's ok to substitute a model you know is bad.
                                                                                      "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I did of course forget to mention the most critical information of all. Which has a big impact on this hand.

                                                                                        I had a look at the day 2 structure and knew it was going to be very fast. I also had a ticket for Saturday already. I was never going to be heading into Sunday with only 70k no matter what. ( i actually ended up all in 3-4 times in the last 5-6 hands of the day) none of the other ones were madness or anything just made sense.

                                                                                        Now that said in this particular case id go for it anyway as i tend to get the hump with lads foolishly raising my blind every round, but i did have the backup of another shot.

                                                                                        On the calling in the BB with J8, im afraid I'm going to do that plenty against the Hoodie Brigade (auto button - cutoff raise / auto continue bet) . I probably disagree with the few comments that would say call everything in that i would probably pitch anything worse than 8/6s
                                                                                        sigpic
                                                                                        Longshotvalue.com

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                                                                                          As far as I can tell you're omitting fold equity from your decision entirely. Our opponent is going to make us fold a tremendous amount of time. We're going to have to shove to generate any fold equity of our own, and we don't really want to be doing that with J high. Our opponent is going to cbet close to 100% of flops, and if they barrel the turn, our resulting shove generates almost no fold equity. We have to consider all of these scenarions in our decision. I know reverse implied odds isn't a completely accurate term to use for this, but nevertheless will be very difficult to win the hand without risking all your chips with a bag of spanners.

                                                                                          Showdown is only a part of our considerations, and using preflop all-in EV only tells us about our potential showdown value. Given the very high probability that the hand won't go to showdown, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that all-in EV is a really terrible way to decide whether or not to see this flop. You can't just decide that something is too complex, therefore it's ok to substitute a model you know is bad.
                                                                                          The difficulty I had in understanding what you previously wrote is because you keep using phrases which are very misleading and have been pretty much omitted in the discourse surrounding poker as they just confuse the important issues. Fold equity, reverse implied odds etc.

                                                                                          Because of the odds you are getting prefop, it is far more profitable to call and check fold most flops than it is to just fold preflop. You are closing the action and getting a pretty insane price. You don't need to continue much after the flop to make calling preflop profitable. In the doomsday scenario you outlined above where Villain is cbetting 100% and barrelling all turns, then it is actually really simple to play post flop and is actually going to be a lot more profitable than playing a reasonable opponent who cbets with a balanced range. Just check raise all in with any pair and you are printing chips, you will be doubling up pretty much any time you make a pair, and folding when you miss. Even when you crai with a draw you will have about 50% equity so its going to be profitable.

                                                                                          You are completely and utterly wrong about using equity simulators. There is no other way of estimating your equity against a range and its the most important factor in deciding whether to call preflop or not. Because a flop contains 3 cards, and the turn and the river only 2, you will realise most of your equity on the flop.

                                                                                          Its very easy to get lost in a sea of words on topics like this. Put simply you are calling less than 2 blinds to win 7.5. You don't need to win the hand a whole lot to make it profitable to call.

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                            The difficulty I had in understanding what you previously wrote is because you keep using phrases which are very misleading and have been pretty much omitted in the discourse surrounding poker as they just confuse the important issues. Fold equity, reverse implied odds etc.

                                                                                            Because of the odds you are getting prefop, it is far more profitable to call and check fold most flops than it is to just fold preflop. You are closing the action and getting a pretty insane price. You don't need to continue much after the flop to make calling preflop profitable. In the doomsday scenario you outlined above where Villain is cbetting 100% and barrelling all turns, then it is actually really simple to play post flop and is actually going to be a lot more profitable than playing a reasonable opponent who cbets with a balanced range. Just check raise all in with any pair and you are printing chips, you will be doubling up pretty much any time you make a pair, and folding when you miss. Even when you crai with a draw you will have about 50% equity so its going to be profitable.

                                                                                            You are completely and utterly wrong about using equity simulators. There is no other way of estimating your equity against a range and its the most important factor in deciding whether to call preflop or not. Because a flop contains 3 cards, and the turn and the river only 2, you will realise most of your equity on the flop.

                                                                                            Its very easy to get lost in a sea of words on topics like this. Put simply you are calling less than 2 blinds to win 7.5. You don't need to win the hand a whole lot to make it profitable to call.
                                                                                            I think would be better served citing post flop probabilities, rather than preflop, based on the logic highlighted above. Sea of words and all that.
                                                                                            Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

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