opinions on the call pre

[Nuttkickker]

Never posted a hand before but would like some opinions and thoughts on the PF call, thanks

NL Holdem $1,200(BB) Replayer Game#92313027571

chrisje76 ($73,043)
kikobicu ($30,736)
keyhell ($25,841)
KSH77 ($45,533)
NuttKickker ($127,949)
BrinzaSok ($101,847)
saja car ($38,111)
rportaleoni ($74,985)
Mihki ($48,386)

BrinzaSok antes $200
saja car antes $200
rportaleoni antes $200
Mihki antes $200
chrisje76 antes $200
kikobicu antes $200
keyhell antes $200
KSH77 antes $200
NuttKickker antes $200
chrisje76 posts (SB) $600
kikobicu posts (BB) $1,200

Dealt to NuttKickker Td Jd
fold, fold,
NuttKickker raises to $2,880
BrinzaSok calls $2,880
fold,
rportaleoni raises to $7,448
fold, fold, fold,
NuttKickker calls $4,568
fold,
FLOP ($21,376) 8h Qs 9c
NuttKickker bets $9,360
rportaleoni calls $9,360
TURN ($40,096) 8h Qs 9c 6c
NuttKickker bets $110,941 (AI)
rportaleoni calls $57,977 (AI)
RIVER ($156,050) 8h Qs 9c 6c 2c
rportaleoni shows Ad Qd
(Pre 65%, Flop 3.3%, Turn 0.0%)

NuttKickker shows Td Jd
(Pre 35%, Flop 96.7%, Turn 100.0%)

NuttKickker wins $156,050

[Hectorjelly]

It will cost you money and you played it bad post flop. Pretty marginal though, if you are going to call a 3bet light this is the hand to do it.

[Nuttkickker]

i thought straight after it was a bad call pre but when i looked at it again couple of things make me think it is ok or even a definite call..... but am not too sure,

firstly the odds to call if heads up were 3.7-1 and if other player calls 4.7-1
secondly all 3 of us are pretty deep for that stage of the tourney and well above ave 107bb 85bb and 62bb
i personally think his raise is too small with a raise and a caller
for me to call 4568 is 1/27th of my stack
yes i am oop but i think the odds make up for that

putting it into pokerstove
3 way:
i have given rportaleoni a 3-bet range of 5.4%(AJs+AQo++,99+)and brinzasok a 10% calling range but taken out AA,KK,QQ and AK's
and the results are Me(24.5%) - Brinzasok(25.8%) and rportaleoni(48.7%)

Heads-up:
still with a 5.4% 3-bet range
we are 33.6%-66.4%

Forgetting that i flopped a monster and won a big pot and just considering preflop the stack sizes, pot odds and possible 3 way action is this now a call, marginal of should it still be a fold.....the more i look at it the more i think its a definite call but would appreciate some debate on it and would like to hear other opinions and if i made any mistakes working out the odds and how i put it into pokerstove
as i said first time posting a hand and would like to be able to properly review and calculate hands such as these

[Hectorjelly]

I didn't notice the original caller, which makes your pot odds more attractive. With the tiny 3bet you are probably right, it's a call.


You can't rely on a pokerstove analysis for this type of situation though, as it only really matters if you always get to realise that equity,

[Flushdraw]

It will cost you money and you played it bad post flop. Pretty marginal though, if you are going to call a 3bet light this is the hand to do it.

What's your thoughts on why he played it bad post flop?

[Hectorjelly]

Why lead the flop? A lot of hands will cbet that won't call. Also why overbet shove the turn?

[Flushdraw]

Why lead the flop? A lot of hands will cbet that won't call. Also why overbet shove the turn?

Without knowing anything about the players or the flow of the game, there can be a case for both. If the 3bettor has an overpair, they will raise the donk bet a lot. If he has AK or TT/JJ he'll probably check this flop back v 2 players. Hero's hand can be a pair/combo draw and he can get value from top pair hands. Also, it's not really an overbet on the turn. Hero is effectively betting 58k into 40k. It's probably the better option considering stack sizes. I'm not saying your wrong, just that i don't really think it's bad.

[Laois Hammer]

With the tiny 3bet you are probably right, it's a call.

My 1st thought was it was a rather larger 3b , wug thoughts on why its tiny like what you reckon sizing should be?

[Flushdraw]

My 1st thought was it was a rather larger 3b , wug thoughts on why its tiny like what you reckon sizing should be?

Did you notice the flat caller pre? I'd like a 3bet to about 8.5-9kish

[Downtown]

Problem with calling here pre is that it makes it very difficult to win the pot without hitting your hand hard. It's best to have more options available. That being said, you have a decent price and stack sizes so call pre is fine.

Also worth asking is there any merit in making it like 17k here pre? Seems like a spot I might 4 bet.

[shanno66]

pre is fine imo.were defo deep enough to flat its like 70bbs effective

i think i check call the flop,villian should be cbetting his whole 3bet range imo and then on the turn id check with the intention of c/r if he fires again and if he checks back then just bet the river big.

[Guest]

PYeah personally I'm not a fan of flatting here OOP if it was btn vs a blind yeah definitely playin deep etc it's fine but OOP I.dont like it, 3 bet imo wouldn't be particularly small

As played a donk isn't bad if u feel he'll stack off with most of 3 betting range and will raise the flop, I do understand losing value vs AK and a couple of other hands but if hes incapable of folding out any over pair, AQ or a set, all of which with the exception of maybe 88 probably make up his 3 betting range, then it seems fine!

[Nuttkickker]

Why lead the flop? A lot of hands will cbet that won't call. Also why overbet shove the turn?

i feel leading here was the better option when i suspected he had a big hand pre and i can play him for his stack, by leading into him i dont think it tells him much about my hand and i expect a raise from a lot of his range.If i check raise the flop i think he can get away from it, although there are hands that cbet here that wont call that is only 1 bet i am missing where a lot of his range is going to stack off here AQ,99,QQ,KK,AA prob folding AK,JJ,1010
after all he is all-in by the turn drawing dead and it was hard for him to fold, dont think i get him allin by slowplaying it. Plus if a 4th straight card comes it might kill the action

My 1st thought was it was a rather larger 3b , wug thoughts on why its tiny like what you reckon sizing should be?

i guess bet sizing is a personal preference and a lot of players have different ideas, but i am suprised so many here dont think the 3-bet is on the small side ( there was a caller aswell), giving odds of 3.7-1 if heads up and 4.7-1 3 way(is this not encouraging unwanted calls), id prob bet about 10k or if no caller it would prob be about 7.5k

[Nuttkickker]

Also why overbet shove the turn?

i thought he had AA,KKorQQ here, think it is hard to fold to that shove, yes im getting AK,10's, and JJ's to fold here but am i going to get much out of them hands anyway without improving?
board was draw heavy too so easily looks like i have some sort of combo hand pair + flush or str8 draws and dont really want a call

some are saying check call the flop. think this line lets him control the pot size more especially if he checks the turn, which i think most players will

[Winning!]

Flatting pre is pretty marginal if you're gonna take lines like this postflop. You're folding out a huge amount of villains 3b range that would have continued at least one street had you checked, and even the strongest part of his range can find a fold for that turn sizing. Like you accomplish the exact same thing vs the top of his range by c/r flop to jam turn, but it gives you at least one street vs the bluffs in his range (which is hugely important to our overall return from flatting the hand OOP in the first place), and sizing wont look that scary so he might get in some more value hands that might have folded to your line as played.

[Hectorjelly]

Yeah that's exactly why leading is bad. The pot already is pretty big, I doubt anyone is going to be able to pot control it. When you call pre you need to maximise your winnings, and not getting a cbet out of bluffs really hurts your bottom line. If he has aces or kings or better he isn't getting away from the hand no matter what you do, so you need to maximise your value against hands like AK, 77 etc. If he checks behind with hands like this you haven't lost anything, since you have them drawing basically dead anyway - but they might hit something which will give them enough equity to stack off.

The 3bet size is tiny. Its little more than a min raise, which with a caller in between is really really small.

[Nuttkickker]

You can't rely on a pokerstove analysis for this type of situation though, as it only really matters if you always get to realise that equity,

Just wondering is that because i am not guarenteed to see a flop with a player still to act?

Also worth asking is there any merit in making it like 17k here pre? Seems like a spot I might 4 bet.

seems like a good spot to 4 bet .....prob a part of my game i need to look at


Is there any merit playing it postflop as i did ....a lot seem to think it was bad, is it not better to bet into someone you suspect has a big hand themselves, building a big pot and probably stacking him. I think taking a stack of that size at that stage of a tourney far outways an added c-bet or bluff i may have missed playing this way?

[Hectorjelly]

Just wondering is that because i am not guarenteed to see a flop with a player still to act?

No, that's not what I was referring to; although that is a good point too. You don't always get to realise your equity because you are not all in, ie you may fold. For example the flop may come up XXT and you end making a fold, however you haven't had the chance to hit 2 pair. Or you may flop a gutshot and have to fold. There are many cases where you will have to fold despite having considerable equity. Pokerstove just lets you know what your equity is at any point if you get all in, and since the cards are face down and you can fold, this isn't actually that helpful.

Is there any merit playing it postflop as i did ....a lot seem to think it was bad, is it not better to bet into someone you suspect has a big hand themselves, building a big pot and probably stacking him. I think taking a stack of that size at that stage of a tourney far outways an added c-bet or bluff i may have missed playing this way?

No, this is ridiculous. You don't need to build a big pot, the pot is already huge and if the villain has a good hand the pot will take care of it self. The pot is 20k big, and you only need to get him to put 67k more in. Leading here is terrible. It might make sense if you were much much deeper.

[Nuttkickker]

No, that's not what I was referring to; although that is a good point too. You don't always get to realise your equity because you are not all in, ie you may fold. For example the flop may come up XXT and you end making a fold, however you haven't had the chance to hit 2 pair. Or you may flop a gutshot and have to fold. There are many cases where you will have to fold despite having considerable equity. Pokerstove just lets you know what your equity is at any point if you get all in, and since the cards are face down and you can fold, this isn't actually that helpful.



No, this is ridiculous. You don't need to build a big pot, the pot is already huge and if the villain has a good hand the pot will take care of it self. The pot is 20k big, and you only need to get him to put 67k more in. Leading here is terrible. It might make sense if you were much much deeper.

Ok thanks for clearing that up.....makes sense now
thanks for all the input good to see all the different opinions will be posting hands more in future