Was this badly played?

[GaryT]

Just wondering if you think this was badly played. It was a 4.40 2R1A on Stars. There was around 60 left with 36 making the money. The villan had just been moved to the table and it was his 1st hand. The table on the whole was playing extremely tight for the most part. With the odd lunatic moment.



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 4.4 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t8130)
MP1 (t6740)
MP2 (t23409)
CO (t33903)
Hero (Button) (t36714)
SB (t8636)
BB (t13947)

Hero's M: 38.65

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 8
2 folds, MP2 bets t800, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1600, 2 folds, MP2 calls t800

Flop: (t4150) Q, 2, 6 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets t2375, MP2 calls t2375

Turn: (t8900) 6 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: (t8900) J (2 players)
MP2 bets t5400, Hero raises to t12800, MP2 raises to t19384 (All-In), Hero calls t6584

Total pot: t47668


Before I'm told to fold pre i just want to explain my thoughts behind the hand. I had been running over the table for the most part. As it was his 1st hand at the table and seeing as he had a reasonably large stack I didn't want him to think he could get away with raising light. That was why I decided to 3bet. In that situation I would of 3bet with any 2 cards.

Is my thought process right here or am I way off? On the river i thought he could be stacking off as light as AQ or JQ. If he ended up ahead it's just a cooler right?

Cheers

[A_CitizenErased]

Just wondering if you think this was badly played. It was a 4.40 2R1A on Stars. There was around 60 left with 36 making the money. The villan had just been moved to the table and it was his 1st hand. The table on the whole was playing extremely tight for the most part. With the odd lunatic moment.



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 4.4 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t8130)
MP1 (t6740)
MP2 (t23409)
CO (t33903)
Hero (Button) (t36714)
SB (t8636)
BB (t13947)

Hero's M: 38.65

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 8
2 folds, MP2 bets t800, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1600, 2 folds, MP2 calls t800

Flop: (t4150) Q, 2, 6 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets t2375, MP2 calls t2375

Turn: (t8900) 6 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: (t8900) J (2 players)
MP2 bets t5400, Hero raises to t12800, MP2 raises to t19384 (All-In), Hero calls t6584

Total pot: t47668


Before I'm told to fold pre i just want to explain my thoughts behind the hand. I had been running over the table for the most part. As it was his 1st hand at the table and seeing as he had a reasonably large stack I didn't want him to think he could get away with raising light. That was why I decided to 3bet. In that situation I would of 3bet with any 2 cards.

Is my thought process right here or am I way off? On the river i thought he could be stacking off as light as AQ or JQ. If he ended up ahead it's just a cooler right?

Cheers

Personally, I would just get a feel for his play before trying to test him. As played, I would find it quite hard to fold here. AQ looks likely.

[Caf]

3betting a guy just because he's new to the table is fairly funny tbh, I'm not mad on 3betting an unknown as a bluff. I don't like the 2x 3bet either, you're just getting called too often, make it c.2.5x.

Bet the turn all day long to build a pot and play for stacks otr. If he shoves there then snap it off.

River is fine, never folding after reraising if that's what you're asking. I think most people will flat the river with AQ btw.

[Flushdraw]

Before I'm told to fold pre i just want to explain my thoughts behind the hand. I had been running over the table for the most part. As it was his 1st hand at the table and seeing as he had a reasonably large stack I didn't want him to think he could get away with raising light. That was why I decided to 3bet. In that situation I would of 3bet with any 2 cards.

Is my thought process right here or am I way off? On the river i thought he could be stacking off as light as AQ or JQ. If he ended up ahead it's just a cooler right?

Cheers

Ok, well i'm still going to say fold preflop. Reason being the exact opposite of the reason you 3bet him. You shouldn't be min3betting a guy in his first hand. You have no idea if he's doing it light or not. If you are to 3bet, i hate the min 3bet tbh

As played, bet less on the flop (about 1750)
You must bet the turn
I'm not sure i raise the river. Problem is, you have no idea of his range so you have to be sure you can make him either fold a better hand or call with a worse one.

So just fold pre till you have more information!

[Mellor]

Don't liek the 3bet. Don't like your reasoning or the size of it either.

Fold pre mgiht seem a bit dismissive, but its the best advice imo.

As played, bet turn call river (I don't raise here)

[Hectorjelly]

The three bet is fine, obviously it would be better if you had more information on the player, but then he has no information about you either. I don't like the size of it though, you are forcing him to call. I think a pot sized 3 bet is best in most circumstances.

Flop bet is fine.

Turn is terrible, you've hit the jackpot and you need to build the pot. Your hand is very disguised.

River is awful, whilst your hand is good, it's not great. I don't mind the raise, but its far far too small. What will happen is that if he has a good queen, he may or may not call. If he has nothing, he's going to fold anyway; but when you are beat, you are kind of forced to call his all in, losing a huge amount of chips. The real problem is that any hand that is better than yours is going to shove, and there are no hands worse than yours that will shove for value. (An idiot might shove QJ I suppose)

[Laois Hammer]

I dont hate the reasoning to be honest obviously its unessassary in this kind of tourney but youve got 90bbs and its 60 effective il take some convincing that 3betting is "bad". I get why people dont like it but it cant be bad.

As it was his 1st hand at the table and seeing as he had a reasonably large stack I didn't want him to think he could get away with raising light. That was why I decided to 3bet. In that situation I would of 3bet with any 2 cards.

Is my thought process right here or am I way off?

I guess you achieve this even if he does have a hand it may tighten him up and the fact your thinking on that kind of level is a good sign imo.

Regarding any2 This deep id prefer something that Flops well as your not really putting pressure on his tourney life so your getting flatted a nice bit with hands he may fold 30effective.

Sizing wise id be making it closer to 1950/2k

Flop sizing is good but as already stated you got to build the pot on the turn.

[GaryT]

Thanks for all the replies.

I should also mention that I will 3bet with 86s against most players. Except for extremely tight players obviously. I started doing this because it was something talked about Jonathan Little's book. He was saying that suited 1 and 2 gappers are the perfect cards to 3 bet light with as if you just get called you can hit some totally disguised monsters and if you get 4bet it's easy to throw them away without seeing a flop. This made a lot of sense to me because with suited connectors I always want to see a flop so it's always a shame to have to fold to a 4 bet. Does this make sense to anybody else?

Sorry I got slightly off topic there but just wanted to explain a bit more about my thought process pre even though in that situation I was probably 3 betting with any 2 as I said before. Which i understand now somebody being new to the table is not a reason to 3 bet.

I hadn't even noticed my bet sizing pre. I normally 3 bet small but not that small. In that situation I would 3 bet to around1800 is that still too small do you think? Must of been an autopilot bit of bet sizing there. It wasn't a min bet but 1 click up.

The turn check was because I thought there would be a lot of small pocket pairs in his range that he would call 1 bet with. I thought that by checking the turn it would make him think his pair was good or for him to turn his hand into a bluff on the river.

On the river I was thinking there's not a huge amount he could realistically have that could beat us here is there? QQ, JJ and 22? Can't see him raising then calling (even a small 3 bet) with Q6,Q2,J6 or J2? Even then QQ, JJ most people would of 4 bet them pre right when faced with a button 3 bet? Does all that make sense to anybody else or am I way off track here?

I just noticed this comes off really defensive of my play when it's not meant to be at all. I'm just trying to explain my complete thought process and i appreciate all replies.

[Flushdraw]

Thanks for all the replies.

I should also mention that I will 3bet with 86s against most players. Except for extremely tight players obviously. I started doing this because it was something talked about Jonathan Little's book. He was saying that suited 1 and 2 gappers are the perfect cards to 3 bet light with as if you just get called you can hit some totally disguised monsters and if you get 4bet it's easy to throw them away without seeing a flop. This made a lot of sense to me because with suited connectors I always want to see a flop so it's always a shame to have to fold to a 4 bet. Does this make sense to anybody else?

Yep makes perfect sense. It's also ok to 3bet tight players IP with these hands if you're quite deep.

Sorry I got slightly off topic there but just wanted to explain a bit more about my thought process pre even though in that situation I was probably 3 betting with any 2 as I said before. Which i understand now somebody being new to the table is not a reason to 3 bet.

I 3bet light quite a bit, but any 2 isn't really part of my range. I prefer to have something along the lines of what you outline above. I generally wouldn't 3bet 103o or similar unless it's a shove and i'm really happy to take the pot down there and then and i'm sure i have a lot of FE. I don't want to get my 3bet flatted and face a 10 high flop and get a little stubborn and lose more than i should.

The turn check was because I thought there would be a lot of small pocket pairs in his range that he would call 1 bet with. I thought that by checking the turn it would make him think his pair was good or for him to turn his hand into a bluff on the river.

The turn card pairing is a really good card for him if he has a small pair. It doesn't actually change his hand that much and you should still get another street of value out of him.

[drive56]

I know that this seemed to work out in this case as you turned another 6, but I just think that your bet sizing on the flop is far too big. I would only be betting somewhere in the region of half pot. Your bet on the flop is only going to fold out air. Nobody is going to call you without a queen or maybe a medium pair, so a smaller bet is going to get the same amount of folds and you're risking less if you get jammed on. On the turn I'm never checking. If he had a queen, i think he will be liking his two pair and if he had a middle pair, he's not going to think you will have a six very often so in his mind if he didnt think you had a queen on the flop and called you with some kind of pair, then the 6 is not a bad card for him. I thought the river was fine!

[Arazi]

3bet a little more pre, 1900ish.
Flop is fine.
I'd bet about 3700 on the turn and be getting it in on the turn or river.
Ps I don't like ur reasoning pre as ur obviously playing uber LAG. If table is very passive opening lots is fine but I'd be picking my 3bet spots better than "this is scobbys first hand at the table so I'll teach him who's boss".

[GaryT]

He ended up having

SPOILER

JJ. He also turned out to be a nit as i don't think i seen him play another hand while at the table.

[Moneymaker]

Jaysus bet the bloody turn!

That's a complete blank in his mind so you're getting called SO light here.

I'd bet around 4200 and set up a river shove.

3bet is alright, rather do it with Axs, Kxs but suited gappers are alright too I suppose.

[GaryT]

Jaysus bet the bloody turn!

That's a complete blank in his mind so you're getting called SO light here.

I'd bet around 4200 and set up a river shove.

3bet is alright, rather do it with Axs, Kxs but suited gappers are alright too I suppose.

Why Axs and Kxs? Is it because they're blockers? Obviously its situation dependent but in general would you just fold to more than 1 street of aggression if the flop comes A or K high? Would that not be quite exploitable to somebody who plays with you quite a lot?

[Moneymaker]

Why Axs and Kxs? Is it because they're blockers? Obviously its situation dependent but in general would you just fold to more than 1 street of aggression if the flop comes A or K high? Would that not be quite exploitable to somebody who plays with you quite a lot?

Blockers are a big part of it yeah and also you can make good top pairs. You won't be outkicked THAT often(AK/AQ) will often get it in pre-flop vs you and when stacks get shallower 3bet shoving K5s is WAY better then shoving 54s, you get called by QQ with K5s you have 35%.

As for your other question, all situation dependent. Usually i'd take pot control line with weak top pairs, try get 1/2 streets depending on board texture of course. Usually let it go vs heavy resistence.

[peterswellman]

Blockers are a big part of it yeah and also you can make good top pairs. You won't be outkicked THAT often(AK/AQ) will often get it in pre-flop vs you and when stacks get shallower 3bet shoving K5s is WAY better then shoving 54s, you get called by QQ with K5s you have 35%.

As for your other question, all situation dependent. Usually i'd take pot control line with weak top pairs, try get 1/2 streets depending on board texture of course. Usually let it go vs heavy resistence.

I don't think Gary is talking about 3-bet shoving. I'm fairly sure he's on about 3 betting, in position, with hands that flop well. I'd much prefer to 3bet 86 suited 30+bb deep than A6o.

I really like this hand pre.

[Moneymaker]

That's why I said 'when stacks get shallower.'

Doubt i'd ever 3bet A6o, just an insta muck usually. Suited wheel aces, suited kings, sc's, gappers and of course value hands and the odd random airball for balance should make up a good MTTs 3betting range(heck a good player period) imo.

Serial 3betting in general is super profitable vs the right oppenents and in the right situations, more often then not what cards you have are irrelevant as you'll be winning a ton before the flop and OTF WSD, but just incase it's always good to have something that can flop well of course.

Back to the hand, as played the river is a clear value raise. You're almost never behind and getting looked up a ton. Ul.

[Winning!]

This is a disaster all streets. 3betting pre is fine but your sizing is terrible, esp with zero reads on villains tendencies. 3betting a hand like 86 you intend to get some folds pre but with this sizing you've lost a ton of preflop fold equity. Check the flop or b/c like 1888 with a plan to get jiggy, it achieves the exact same result without committing as many chips. Turn is criminal. Shove river, if villain is calling a CIB hes calling a shove.