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WSOP $5k PLO - Very tough preflop spot.

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    WSOP $5k PLO - Very tough preflop spot.

    This is about as interesting a hand as has ever been posted here I reckon. This hand is from the $5k plo yesterday. Would love to hear thoughts on best line.

    UTG c.40k (Benjamin Spindler) - has been at the table for maybe 20 or 30 mins and has been moderately active in position. hasnt shown down any hands that i recall.

    MP c.9k - unknown to me but he has been making bets with Ted Forrest with $150k liabilities so i assume he isnt a mug. Came to the table with maybe 50k chips but punted them off in a couple of pots, most recently he caled a big river bet from TheAshman to be shown quads, i figure he is a little tilted now and is probably just getting it in so he can go play some cash games or make more prop bets with somebody, somewhere.

    Me/Big Blind c.33k - been playing pretty snug, lurking in the long grass and just picking a couple of spots here and there. Should deffo be percieved as being v tight.

    Anyway, blinds of 200/400, UTG raises to 1200, MP repots to 4200, back to me in the big blind and i see K:club: K:spade: Q:club: 9:spade:

    #2
    I think that you were probably afraid if you flat that UTG will ship and your hardly wanting to get your stack in pre with KINGS even good ones in a 5k game.

    When you say active in position utg does not necessarily have to have a huge hand utg raises get respect and perhaps a steal as he thinks your very tight.

    Really tough spot if it was a smaller game or online id probably repot or call i hate folding this hand.
    But is fierce tough spot.

    Comment


      #3
      Really tough spot MP has raised 1/2 his stack and is most likely shoving all flops as a result.
      UTG raiser doesn't need a big hand imo and if you flat he will most likely flat also to take in a flop 3 way. Due to your stack size being decent he won't be re-potting without a big big hand.

      All in all I flat here and hope to take in a flop.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Aya14 View Post
        Really tough spot MP has raised 1/2 his stack and is most likely shoving all flops as a result.
        UTG raiser doesn't need a big hand imo and if you flat he will most likely flat also to take in a flop 3 way. Due to your stack size being decent he won't be re-potting without a big big hand.

        All in all I flat here and hope to take in a flop.
        2h 5h jc flop 3 way pot you are obv calling shortstack shove ya ? What if utg flats flop as well you now have a real tough hand with about 35% of your stack in the middle.

        On the face of it folding pre might see weak but the more i think about it the more i prefer it.

        At first when i looked at this earlier my thoughts were call the 3 bet.

        Am i correct in saying a 4 bet would be very bad here.
        Pm for rakeback deals

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
          2h 5h jc flop 3 way pot you are obv calling shortstack shove ya ? What if utg flats flop as well you now have a real tough hand with about 35% of your stack in the middle.

          On the face of it folding pre might see weak but the more i think about it the more i prefer it.

          At first when i looked at this earlier my thoughts were call the 3 bet.

          Am i correct in saying a 4 bet would be very bad here.
          A Shortie shove for another 4.5kish leaves us with 26k, loads to fold should UTG re shove and enough to shut down should he also flat, unless we hit the turn obv.

          I just think 4-betting this spot is risky, either way I really hate to fold this pre.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Aya14 View Post
            A Shortie shove for another 4.5kish leaves us with 26k, loads to fold should UTG re shove and enough to shut down should he also flat, unless we hit the turn obv.

            I just think 4-betting this spot is risky, either way I really hate to fold this pre.
            I agree a 4 bet seems v bad.

            Ya i guess im no expert at omaha but i really find this an extremely interesting spot.
            Pm for rakeback deals

            Comment


              #7
              im not joking when I tell you that i have spoke to some of the best PLO players in the world over here about this hand and each of them has said something along the lines of FML and scratched their head.

              Comment


                #8
                I raise to the shorties stack putting him all in 9k.Utg has the option to ship now if he wishes but if he flats and there is no side pot to fight for I think the hand will play pretty honestly post flop.If utg reships I suppose we have let it go and fight on with 60bbs.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Sirtoyou View Post
                  I raise to the shorties stack putting him all in 9k.Utg has the option to ship now if he wishes but if he flats and there is no side pot to fight for I think the hand will play pretty honestly post flop.If utg reships I suppose we have let it go and fight on with 60bbs.
                  rasie folding here would be criminal.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    If you pot it Noel to circa 14k your committed too calling utg raisers shove i think.

                    Would be interested in hearing some respected players views as there is litle omaha tournaments situation is fairly unique.
                    If it was a cash game an aggressive one repotting all day would be fine you might lose a buy in or two but being a tournament gives it a cool dynamic and obv super tough spot

                    Comment


                      #11
                      This is obv coming from a general pov as clearly not in position to offer any meaningful advice on a 5k plo tourny hand. But if a hand is so tough,so hard to play surely it is a lesser mistake just mucking it than doing anything else. Would your action be different if it was in a monkey game? Should it be?
                      Theory is theory but I guess the demeneted level of opposition reduces your options a little which makes poker so intresting.
                      Obv a painful spot to be in but what a spot all the same. Thats what it has to be all about.
                      Personally it feels better in-I think whatever eq we wind up wtih will prob be ok in relation to the pot and hopefully the deads loots in there.
                      Last edited by jbravado; 01-07-10, 18:59.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
                        im not joking when I tell you that i have spoke to some of the best PLO players in the world over here about this hand and each of them has said something along the lines of FML and scratched their head.
                        I thought u were one of the best

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Pretty yucky spot i really am at a loss at what i would do here, more than likely call and hope utg does not reship (really narrows his range) and peel a flop ...i am not so worried about MP given your description.

                          If you raise here it has to be with the intention to get the rest in. I think raise/folding is bad Kieran if UTG raises us now we can fold it and not take too much of a hit by just calling.
                          Last edited by Jackyback; 01-07-10, 21:21. Reason: messed up positions

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I repot here, benny spindler is a mentaler, but given your image here, he can only continue with the hand if he has a v good AA hand, you can't polarise his hand to being super-strong just because he has potted utg.

                            i wouldn't flat here, firstly there is a good chance he will pot, and secondly you are oop against a v aggro player where you will be chk/folding lots.

                            If he has the nuts, you have a hand with with a decent shot, although one of your suits are prob dead and he'd have a couple blockers

                            it just looks like too good a spot/hand to let go

                            Comment


                              #15
                              calling is the worst option. you have no fold equity against short stack and it is a marginal hand. call or raise you are at least seeing a flop with the other big stack and with stack sizes position is not much of an advantage. with the action in front and the respect the players have to be showing to eachother i would have to fold pre in general but on the other hand there seems to be no weak spots and you might just have to gamble now if 3b is common otherwise its a clear fold.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Click it back to induce the Benny character to maybe shove worse. No clue who he is, but given you just mentioned him by name, presume he's decent.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  benny spindler is a young very positionally aggressive nlhe player who will cause problems when average is 15bb. no idea on his plo game. he is more than likely being staked and as a result possibly a bit looser.
                                  Last edited by Multidraw; 01-07-10, 22:54.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    fold........ ok tank fold

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      im surprised you found this such a tough spot
                                      i dont think you can call the mp raise knowing utg is prob gonna shove over the top
                                      so pre flop its either raise or fold,i would def be folding here and waiting for a better spot
                                      have a feeling this hand is annoying you bcause you folded but had you played it you would have won ?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        tank fold and kick kittens

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Sick spot Noel,

                                          Originally posted by Multidraw View Post
                                          calling is the worst option. you have no fold equity against short stack and it is a marginal hand. call or raise you are at least seeing a flop with the other big stack and with stack sizes position is not much of an advantage. with the action in front and the respect the players have to be showing to eachother i would have to fold pre in general but on the other hand there seems to be no weak spots and you might just have to gamble now if 3b is common otherwise its a clear fold.
                                          What leads you0 to believe that there has been any displays of respect?
                                          I imagine 3 bets are somewhat common with 100BB stacks on the table. It's hardly a clear fold. It's hardly a clear anything.
                                          Originally posted by Multidraw View Post
                                          benny spindler is a young very positionally aggressive nlhe player who will cause problems when average is 15bb. no idea on his plo game. he is more than likely being staked and as a result possibly a bit looser.
                                          You have no idea of his PLO game, so you assume he is a loosing player?????
                                          Why would you assume he is being staked, he has cashed in two WSOP events so far, so likely has played more than that.
                                          Originally posted by ONE TIME View Post
                                          im surprised you found this such a tough spot
                                          i dont think you can call the mp raise knowing utg is prob gonna shove over the top
                                          so pre flop its either raise or fold,i would def be folding here and waiting for a better spot
                                          have a feeling this hand is annoying you bcause you folded but had you played it you would have won ?
                                          Saying this is not a tough spot is stupid.
                                          What is your reason for the fold? All there has been is an UTG open (from an active player) and a 3bet from a shortie looking to get it in.
                                          I think Noel is also a bit past getting annoyed over hands he would of won.

                                          Noel,
                                          I considered folding, but I think that would be giving up too much in this spot. Given your image, I pot it to 15k (assuming antes) and hopefully get it in with the unknown. Your image and position should prevent a 5bet shove.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            - If we raise pot we can allow him to play perfectly against us.
                                            - if we rasie small we have to call it off anyway if he does shove.
                                            - if we call we open ourselves up to him shoving or else playing some potentially awkward postflop poker.
                                            - if we fold we are folding the top of our range and it seems pretty weak.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Out of 3 horrible options, folding seems best to me. I'd hate life doing it and be tilted for an hour but raising seems pretty ugh to me, and calling is out of the question imo. We never get it in good with your image and stacksize and calling opens us up to being shoved on pre-flop or being put in some disgusting spots post-flop.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                I said benny could potentially be playing quite loose not that he is a loser at plo. i just think its too difficult to play post flop with the soon to be dead pot from the shorty possibly killing the action and you might end up letting utg draw out on you if your ahead pre and as you said raising turns your hand face up. How will his position prevent a 5bet shove?
                                                Last edited by Multidraw; 02-07-10, 09:56.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Not sure I can fold here tbh. By the sound of it MPs range is gonna be super super wide here. If UTG has the boots so be it, but it's gotta be a profitable 4bet here (IMO).
                                                  Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
                                                    - If we raise pot we can allow him to play perfectly against us.
                                                    - if we rasie small we have to call it off anyway if he does shove.
                                                    - if we call we open ourselves up to him shoving or else playing some potentially awkward postflop poker.
                                                    - if we fold we are folding the top of our range and it seems pretty weak.
                                                    fold for me, seems pretty weak but its such a horrible spot that I don't think its not.


                                                    I fold or shove here and the definite more likely outcome is a fold,

                                                    edit: read mp is tilting balls, this is a shove spot
                                                    Go big or go homeless.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      If you think folding is too weak then surely calling to induce a light shove from UTG is better than shoving. I think I fold though

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by ianmc38 View Post
                                                        Not sure I can fold here tbh. By the sound of it MPs range is gonna be super super wide here. If UTG has the boots so be it, but it's gotta be a profitable 4bet here (IMO).
                                                        this imo.
                                                        Taking the buyin out of it, 4betting would be my default line given what we know about opponents.
                                                        UTG can only reshove with one hand (profitably), and taking your image into consideration, he'd maybe let go of weaker single suited ones (i may be oversimplifying this theory but it is laid out in Slotboom's book)
                                                        People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          i raise now this puts the pressure back on utg who is now in a situation just like yourself who if had a hand like yours should fold imo not worried about the player in mp who seems to have a wide range from what ive read plus you also have him well covered

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by mdoug View Post
                                                            I fold or shove here and the definite more likely outcome is a fold,

                                                            edit: read mp is tilting balls, this is a shove spot
                                                            You can't shove, its PLO.
                                                            still think 4betting to 14/15k is best

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              shitty spot

                                                              calling 4200 and folding to bennys ship leaving you with 29k at 200/400 is hardly horrendous. raising means committing to the pot with KKds which is meh. even utg aggro monsters get dealt aaxx .if the kids popps you without aaxx to get HU with the tilt monkey you should berate the shit out of him hellmuth style

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                i fold here

                                                                nearly all scenarios involve the SS being AI pre for 9k meaning he gets to see all
                                                                five cards for a 27k main pot leaving you and UTG fighting over a potential 48k side
                                                                you will be either a dog for the side pot or have something between 55% or 60% equity

                                                                then you have to be good at SD v the SS who will have 30% with a bag like 24j7 no suits and will probably
                                                                be better coordinated than that

                                                                the scenario where you both call the 4200 is very trcky to play oop given SS has only 4800 left

                                                                doesnt seem worth it
                                                                Last edited by dinekes; 06-07-10, 17:35. Reason: side pot

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                  You can't shove, its PLO.
                                                                  still think 4betting to 14/15k is best
                                                                  Your being fairly blunt with other peoples opinions without giving much insight into your own. if you 4bet to 15k what is your plan for the rest of the hand. what if utg 5bets? what if utg flats and mp shoves? would you be happy to get most or all of your stack in pre with KKds? still interested to know how op position will play a part in preventing a 5bet shove from utg? These are just the preflop situations nevermind playing post against another big stack with a dead pot.
                                                                  Last edited by Multidraw; 08-07-10, 10:08.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Multidraw View Post
                                                                    Your being fairly blunt with other peoples opinions without giving much insight into your own. if you 4bet to 15k what is your plan for the rest of the hand. what if utg 5bets? what if utg flats and mp shoves? what if utg flats, mp shoves, you call and utg pots? would you be happy to get most or all of your stack in pre with KKds? These are just the preflop situations nevermind playing post against another big stack with a dead pot.
                                                                    Pretty sure Mellor meant its pot limit so you can't shove/massive overbet.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      i called, benny potted, mp called obv and i fold.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        What did Spindler have

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          he had AAxx, MP had a bag.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
                                                                            im not joking when I tell you that i have spoke to some of the best PLO players in the world over here about this hand and each of them has said something along the lines of FML and scratched their head.
                                                                            Are you sure this isnt because you were bothering them again asking for all the free advice Noel

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Great thread

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                this is just gross

                                                                                Comment

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