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    PLO spot

    Im starting to try out PLO. Im pretty ok with regards to flop play but pre is a weird one for me. It was 20 plo.

    Here is a weird spot that occurred last night. I 3 bet a button raise from the bb with Ad Jx 10d 10x. He calls i cbet 3/4 pot and he raises pot i fold.

    Next time he is on button i 3 bet him with K K 10 7 possibly 1 suited i cant recall. He calls again i cbet and take it down.

    The third time he raises button in a row i have Qs Qx Kx 5s this time i 3 bet him from sb to 2.30 and bb calls, he makes it 8. Whats my move here playing €25 and he covers ?
    Pm for rakeback deals

    #2
    your move is to not 3 bet pre flop with that hand, imo.

    Comment


      #3
      +1 to BCB
      as played;
      shove or fold
      Leaning heavily on fold
      People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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      Comment


        #4
        Jaysus dont be shoving. Fold it.

        Comment


          #5
          as I said leaning heavily on fold.
          People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
          Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
          https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

          Comment


            #6
            Ok id appreciate opinions on the other two 3 bets aswell are they ok ?

            I did shove i mean its only the fact i had 3 bet him the 2 previous times he raised the button that surely he can 4 bet hands im ahead of there.

            Im assuming 3 betting should be limited oop in plo moreso that NL ?
            Pm for rakeback deals

            Comment


              #7
              Hand 1 is fine

              Hand 2 - if not suited is a fold not a 3bet. Suited is a meh take your pick spot based on dynamic but if in doubt + oop then go ahead and fold.

              Comment


                #8
                What kind of hands should i look to be getting in pre ? I mean is it a case that we just dont play all in poker pre ?
                Pm for rakeback deals

                Comment


                  #9
                  I usually wouldn't be 3betting QQxx hands unless it was doubled suited with a K and and A. I wouldn't have 3b the KKT7 hand either.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    You should be 3betting hands that make strong hands more often. Hands that make straights, nut flushes, not hands were you need to flop a set and if you get it in you are not that far ahead anyway. 1 pair hands are very average hands in plo, you want cards that go along with them, like 889T ds is much better hand equity wise going for seeing the flop than KKT7 or so. While KKT7 might be the stronger hand preflop, 88T9 will play much better and easier on the flop and turn
                    Last edited by digiman; 23-12-11, 13:10.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by digiman View Post
                      You should be 3betting hands that make strong hands more often. Hands that make straights, nut flushes, not hands were you need to flop a set and if you get it in you are not that far ahead anyway.
                      Happy getting AJQ10 ds in pre ?
                      Pm for rakeback deals

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                        Happy getting AJQ10 ds in pre ?
                        Most of the time, but my plo experience is not great, played about 40k hands or so and wasn't winning until I got my rakeback!!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The only hand you should be happy getting in pre is AAxx. Other hands as dynamic and situation requires. i.e. you 3bet 78910 ds from the button and the SB call, BB Pots, Original raiser calls.......... then you put your money in. You are not necessarily happy about it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Gimmeabreak View Post
                            The only hand you should be happy getting in pre is AAxx. Other hands as dynamic and situation requires. i.e. you 3bet 78910 ds from the button and the SB call, BB Pots, Original raiser calls.......... then you put your money in. You are not necessarily happy about it.
                            Ok i assumed if your a reg you would need to be getting in KK at least.
                            Pm for rakeback deals

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'm happier getting it in with 78910ds vs KKxx
                              People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                              Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                              https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Ok sorry if some of these hands are petty but i just want to see what people think.
                                Need omahamanager writing hands is awkward.

                                20 PLO 3 handed

                                btn folds, sb raises to 80cent, i call with Q Q 4s 7s. Flop is Qc Jc 5d he cbets 1.20 and i make it 3.60 and he calls.

                                Turn 4h, he checks, i bet 8 and he calls.

                                River Kd he shoves for 8.34.

                                Call, fold ?
                                Pm for rakeback deals

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Fold pre, QQ74 suited to the 7 is not a strong hand especially OOP. Easy call OTR

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Tremolo1 View Post
                                    Fold pre, QQ74 suited to the 7 is not a strong hand especially OOP. Easy call OTR
                                    Im in position Surely 3 handed its a call pre ?
                                    Pm for rakeback deals

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Hey, here's the best part of advice you are ever gonna get in PLO: we don't cbet.
                                      Some flops are of a texture that we can lead on but it's not a cbet so don't feel obliged to do so (no matter what u had pre you weren't too far ahead/behind). Also you shouldn't be 3betting with those hands oop, the button is not trying to steal, he's pot building in position and you're helping him.

                                      In the hand in the OP I wouldn't shove or fold playing your stack, it's deffo a call for he and re evaluate on the flop. If you post flop I'll tell u how I'd play it.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        I cant post the QQ hand flop as its just in my basic PP info. I dont have omaha manager. Thanks for the input tho.
                                        Pm for rakeback deals

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                          Im in position Surely 3 handed its a call pre ?
                                          ye sorry misread, flatting i suppose is fine so is 3b'ing.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Invest in some plo coaching, this will help you understand the game dramatically. 4 sessions should get you going until you want to step up to 1-2 and so on. Trust me it will be the best money you ever spent. Imo you cannot learn all you need to know about this game on your own. I promise maybe 3-4 'ahh haa' moments!
                                            Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                            My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                            My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              You'll come close to some of those Ahh Haa moments in an online article called "what makes a good PLO player", google it and then read the section in SuperSystem. Also continuously put hands you've played into a poker calc to see the %'s.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                You'll come close to some of those Ahh Haa moments in an online article called "what makes a good PLO player", google it and then read the section in SuperSystem. Also continuously put hands you've played into a poker calc to see the %'s.
                                                Great bit of advice from Jason and Arazi. ty

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                  Invest in some plo coaching, this will help you understand the game dramatically. 4 sessions should get you going until you want to step up to 1-2 and so on. Trust me it will be the best money you ever spent. Imo you cannot learn all you need to know about this game on your own. I promise maybe 3-4 'ahh haa' moments!
                                                  I agree with the coaching aspect i done it for NL last year for the first time and its amazing the small spots that a good player can see in your game. Im only at 20plo now so id imagine i can beat that easy without coaching.

                                                  I guess no 1 aim is sort out omaha manager as i never got that with HEM.

                                                  Ive got access to deucescracked at the moment so watching a few videos there should help a little aswell.

                                                  It will be a month or two before i think about coaching i imagine. When i decide im beating 20plo il probably try 1 lesson before heading for 50plo. I dabbled in a small bit of 50plo in the last few days and i cant say the standard is great. I could start my plo there from a bankroll point of view but i really dont want a bad downswing.
                                                  Pm for rakeback deals

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                    You'll come close to some of those Ahh Haa moments in an online article called "what makes a good PLO player", google it and then read the section in SuperSystem. Also continuously put hands you've played into a poker calc to see the %'s.
                                                    The PLO section in SuperSystem 2 is terrible imo. Better off with videos like Brian Hasting and Brian Townsends earlier ones on CR's. Magic Ninja for DC

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Just got omaha manager sorted. is 14/8/2.1 a criminally low player type? Im usually 8 tabling aswell if this has any bearing.
                                                      Pm for rakeback deals

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Thats def too tight tight....youd want to be playing 19-20% of hands at least

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                          You'll come close to some of those Ahh Haa moments in an online article called "what makes a good PLO player", google it and then read the section in SuperSystem. Also continuously put hands you've played into a poker calc to see the %'s.
                                                          linkage
                                                          http://www.andr3w321.com/what-makes-a-good-plo-player/

                                                          Also, I really liked Rolf Slotboom's book.
                                                          People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                          Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                          https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                                            Just got omaha manager sorted. is 14/8/2.1 a criminally low player type? Im usually 8 tabling aswell if this has any bearing.
                                                            Don't 8 table PLO if you are new to it, there is so much more going on and a million things more to think about than nlhe. And as Valor says that is just criminal stats

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Valor View Post
                                                              Thats def too tight tight....youd want to be playing 19-20% of hands at least
                                                              Ok well il wait until 10k hands and post positional stats. Id assume i should still be fine with those stats at 20plo.

                                                              Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                                              Don't 8 table PLO if you are new to it, there is so much more going on and a million things more to think about than nlhe. And as Valor says that is just criminal stats
                                                              I see where your coming from on that front.
                                                              Pm for rakeback deals

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                What stats should i include for analysis ?

                                                                VPIP PFR 3BET WTSD% W$SD% AGG AGG%

                                                                What should i add to this?
                                                                Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  lol 8 tables! and your lost in pretty basic situations, cut it down to two and think about every thing you do, not one decision should be autopilotted.

                                                                  Also if your playing this tight and still playing QQ47, your way over rating one pair hands.

                                                                  If you want to get more comfortable playing wider pre, drop down to tiny stakes and play some Heads up, play like a maniac pre and get yourself in all sorts of crazy spots. It will get you thinking, also as Arazi said get out the calc, you'll be shocked at some percentages I bet.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by smoothcall View Post
                                                                    lol 8 tables! and your lost in pretty basic situations, cut it down to two and think about every thing you do, not one decision should be autopilotted.

                                                                    Also if your playing this tight and still playing QQ47, your way over rating one pair hands.

                                                                    If you want to get more comfortable playing wider pre, drop down to tiny stakes and play some Heads up, play like a maniac pre and get yourself in all sorts of crazy spots. It will get you thinking, also as Arazi said get out the calc, you'll be shocked at some percentages I bet.
                                                                    To be fair that was at the very start i was really just testing the waters and that was a unique spot. I wouldnt even consider playing that hand in that way now. I really should give the calculator a lash as im pretty clueless on that front.
                                                                    Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      I didnt mean to sound harsh, but I see it a lot. People trying to learn playing loads of tables, makes no sense to me. I dont mind calling QQ47 in position, but by your stats it's crazy, it means you must be folding stronger hands, that don't look as good. If you get me, like Q1078 or something. Anyway gl with it.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Jesus I play roughly 30% of hands and feel I'm playing tight sometimes. 14% is ridiculous. Folding way too many strong hands. I call an absolute ton preflop in position. That QQ hand is awful to 3bet. Flops so badly almost always.

                                                                        Wouldn't go near Supersystem. I'd recommend signing up on Bluefire for the free trial and download every Phil Galfond PLO video. Theyre the best out there by a mile.
                                                                        Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          As ive said the QQ was early in the process before i delved into how the preflop world of omaha worked. The last session i played i widened my range a lot i played a 23/18/10 game type. This obviously made a massive difference to what i was used to and i really saw how variance plays a huge part. Im starting to see how making guys fold when we have hands with decent equity is a big part of the game aswell.

                                                                          Im just going to post this hand see if people think i can do anything different. Im going to go through a few more hands so may post some more. Il look into the bluefire videos aswell.


                                                                          IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
                                                                          Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

                                                                          Hero (BTN): $22.43 (112.2 bb)
                                                                          SB: $29.66 (148.3 bb)
                                                                          BB: $44.07 (220.4 bb)
                                                                          UTG: $38.44 (192.2 bb)
                                                                          MP: $16.31 (81.5 bb)
                                                                          CO: $23.80 (119 bb)

                                                                          Preflop: Hero is BTN with T:spade: K:spade: J:club: 8:club:
                                                                          UTG folds, MP raises to $0.70, CO folds, Hero calls $0.70, 2 folds

                                                                          Flop: ($1.70) Q:spade: K:heart: 4:club: (2 players)
                                                                          MP bets $1, Hero raises to $2.80, MP calls $1.80

                                                                          Turn: ($7.30) 5:spade: (2 players)
                                                                          MP checks, Hero bets $6.20, MP raises to $12.81, Hero calls $6.61

                                                                          River: ($32.92) 8:heart: (2 players)

                                                                          Results: $32.92 pot ($1.64 rake)
                                                                          Final Board: Q:spade: K:heart: 4:club: 5:spade: 8:heart:
                                                                          Hero mucked T:spade: K:spade: J:club: 8:club: and lost (-$16.31 net)
                                                                          MP showed Q:club: 2:diamond: K:club: T:club: and won $31.28 ($14.97 net)
                                                                          Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            3b pre.

                                                                            I flat the flop, there are so many good turns for our hand and I don't think we get a ton of value from hands we beat. What was your plan for the flop? Once we raise if he shoves we need ~39% to continue and we don't do so well vs his 'get it in range'. We don't want to raise/fold this hand that has good equity vs most ranges on this flop texture

                                                                            As played turn is obv standard

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Tremolo1 View Post
                                                                              3b pre.

                                                                              I flat the flop, there are so many good turns for our hand and I don't think we get a ton of value from hands we beat. What was your plan for the flop? Once we raise if he shoves we need ~39% to continue and we don't do so well vs his 'get it in range'. We don't want to raise/fold this hand that has good equity vs most ranges on this flop texture

                                                                              As played turn is obv standard
                                                                              Thanks for the input i guess you make a very valid point. I mean a lot of players at this level tend to fold so much and not pay off when you hit a hand due to been so nitty. I guess i was raising as a semi bluff. Im happy to take a pot down there or by betting the turn if he checks. I mean i see merits to flat calling aswell. Is my logic for raising pretty bad?
                                                                              Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Im 12 buyins below ev in 8.5k hands its a pretty tough way to come into a new game type. Its hard to know if a lot of it is shit play or what.
                                                                                Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                                                                  Im 12 buyins below ev in 8.5k hands its a pretty tough way to come into a new game type. Its hard to know if a lot of it is shit play or what.
                                                                                  Seriously I think you need to get some really basic strategy before you get fancy, PLO is a very different game to NLH. I'm saying this as reading your posts is very NLH'y. I'd genuinely read Supersystem eventhough it hasn't received the highest praise in this thread. I was playing 5k plo and this was the only strategy piece I'd ever read at the time (and I'd go back to it and reread every 3 months or so) although I'd constantly discuss and analyse hand histories with friends and on 2plus2 etc, constantly pokercalc'ing hands and spots is absolutely essential.
                                                                                  You really need to get the basics right, also I wouldn't be too against playing tight when you are starting off but by playing tight I mean good PLO hands rather than NLH hands.
                                                                                  After that just gamble, gamble, gamble

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Hi Tipp gl with the plo.
                                                                                    Just a few things.
                                                                                    1. Position is the nuts in omaha. Much more so than holdem.
                                                                                    2. Big pairs like the qqxx hand are rubbish in plo especially oop. A good measure of a pre- flop starting hand in Omaha is Can it make 3 good holdem hands.
                                                                                    eg 9tjq ds AAtj ds etc.
                                                                                    A hand like AA73 no suits might be best to just open fold at a tough omaha table utg.
                                                                                    3. There is a forum dedicated to omaha called plomaha.com which has some top class posters.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Tempted to back this in after tonight. Im now 17 buyins down and running 19 buyins below ev. This would not bother me in the least if this happened after me winning for a certain period but im now in a position where everytime i sit down i really cant see myself winning.
                                                                                      Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I would stop & concentrate on finding someone to coach you. I seriously cannot stress this enough to you mate, you will not become good quick enough before plo takes your soul.

                                                                                        It's just a quick few hours for coaching yet will help you forever. Like you obv don't understand how much required coaching you need, I can see from your posts that you will continue to loose gradually, and judging that you haven't just gone straight to being coached this might get put back again and again or fall on deaf ears, which would be a shame.

                                                                                        @Islander Are you mad folding AA73 utg??? You be crazy! Too many spots and flop textures in our favour just to pass up the old boots v aggro players.

                                                                                        Also guys I have found 'Lefty' from Cardrunners to be above and beyond the best vids to watch, esp good for someone like tipp. He has a positional tight game and is great how he opens it up and explains it perfectly to you why.
                                                                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Tipp, that last hand, I'd 3bet a decent amount of the time preflop (as I like to 3bet the button alot). On the flop I don't like the raise. You never fold out better hands apart from some AKxx hands and they may not even cbet. It's a very very standard call on the flop where I think doing anything else is kind of bad. On the turn the pot is big enough and you've picked up enough equity to bet/call so no choice there.
                                                                                          Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post

                                                                                            @Islander Are you mad folding AA73 utg??? You be crazy! Too many spots and flop textures in our favour just to pass up the old boots v aggro players.
                                                                                            agree to a certain extent but there aren't many flops without an A on board that your gonna be comfortable with getting a lot of chips in the middle. My example might have been a bit extreme but what i was trying to emphasise is that an omaha hand needs more than just 1 holdem hand to be worthwhile playin.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              No offence here Islander, but I never thought much of that x ammount of holdem hands shite. It's a completly different game, don't compare it to a different games starting hands.

                                                                                              I was kind of lucky in the way i learnt both at the same time, but thinking in a holdem mind set isn't the way forward.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Ive currently started watching the Phil Galfond/whitelime video on deucescracked and its a good start.

                                                                                                Jason i know what your saying about coaching and i far from disagree but i need to build my roll a bit before im comfortable with paying out for coaching. The only prior coaching i have had off Digiman taught me a lot about aspects of NL that i just didnt think about. I understand its value fully. What should a 20nl/plo player be paying for a coach in peoples opinion ?

                                                                                                I intend on integrating PLO slowly into my game as opposed to the all out assault i started with. This gives me a chance to progress slowly with it. Ive now put in 10k plo and 10k nl this month. Il probably play another 2/3k Plo and 10/15k NL.

                                                                                                Edit : I downloaded Rob Hollink/Rolf Slotbottom book is it worth reading or not ?
                                                                                                Pm for rakeback deals

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  i posted a link in the omaha section while back i reckon it was a very good read to get you going with PLO

                                                                                                  edit: http://en.donkr.com/forum/the-ultima...y-guide-533519
                                                                                                  airport, lol

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                                    You'll come close to some of those Ahh Haa moments in an online article called "what makes a good PLO player", google it and then read the section in SuperSystem. Also continuously put hands you've played into a poker calc to see the %'s.
                                                                                                    read that "what makes a good plo player" great read... just have to try put it into practice correctly

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                                      You'll come close to some of those Ahh Haa moments in an online article called "what makes a good PLO player", google it
                                                                                                      Originally posted by apokerw View Post
                                                                                                      read that "what makes a good plo player" great read... just have to try put it into practice correctly
                                                                                                      I read it and can't say it helped me too much tbh

                                                                                                      http://www.jcm-polo.com/poloinfo1.html

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