Hand from Killarney ME

[ghostface]

Just wanted to post this for some views as had no clue what was going on at the time. Prob easy check on river but...

2nd level - Blinds 50/100

UTG (think is Istanbul from here) c. 15k
UTG +1 (scandie seemed decent from few hands played) c. 14k
Hero UTG +2 c. 23k - Have played a few hands early but shown goods

UTG makes it 175 (thought was previous level) deemed a min raise 200
UTG +1 calls
Hero makes it 600 with AK, both players call (Pot 1950)

Flop of 8 5 3 rainbow, checked to me and cbet 950, UTG folds and UTG+1 calls after a slight dwell (Pot 3900)

Turn - Q bringing flushdraw. UTG+1 checks again, i decide to have another pop at it and possibly give up on river if called. I bet 1500 and after a long dwell he calls. He did not seem very comfortable making this call (Pot 6900)

River - A (no flush). Again its checked to me. I thought this was a good card for me and checking behind would lose value so made a small 'value' bet of 2200. Back to villain who announces all in for another c. 8.5k back to me

Any thoughts on this welcome, was hand butchered from start to finish, possible hand for villain?

Cheers

[Bubbleking]

I think you played it well if you would have checked the river

not sure what to do now tbh. I think its a fold

[NuckChorris]

I don't mind the two barrels on flop and turn. Agree you have to bet the river or you miss value. I fold now usually. Problem is that he's a scandie and you've opened the door to his shove with the small river bet. He knows you should fold here without a set or top two so I might find a hero call. Would be very player based tho. Being terrilbly stereotypical the standard Irish guy turns up with A8 and standard scandie has 67 sooted.

[sligoboi]

Every single action pre flop is super strong..An utg+1 flat of an utg raise should only really be 1010+ and AQs+ (This might even be a little wide) if he's competent like you say..then again he is a scandie so we can prob widen it to all pairs and a couple more Ax hands.

I actually like how you played the hand (maybe bet size on turn is a little small but w/e) except for the river. If we bet river here we have to make it ~ half pot as 1/3 screams weakness esp after firing 2 bullets already. From his pov you've fired 2 bullets at this board and now a perfect scare card peels and if he check/shoves the only hands you can confidently call with are sets.

Personally I prefer the check as we gain a lot of info from seeing the hand of a player we deem as competent and who we have position on.

Edit: Just to say I stand by my range above but if I were to put him on an exact hand it has to be AA.

[bops]

he flopped a set and played it well imo

when someone does the whole "i dunno if i should call" line on the flop and turn and ck/ships the river you are beat 99% of the time

checking the river would be weak/losing value by you (unless you guess he's trapping)

easy fold now

[ghostface]

Personally I prefer the check as we gain a lot of info from seeing the hand of a player we deem as competent and who we have position on.

I just don't think i can bring myself to check behind on the river and see something he might have called a bet with

If I bet half pot I think I have to call his shove and not too sure i'd be happy with that either.

he flopped a set and played it well imo

I can understand the check call on flop/turn with the set but i can't see it on the river as there are so many hands i should be checking behind with that he wont get paid, aswell as the Ace being a scare card to some of my range there.

Prob overthinking the hand way too much, bet/fold the river me thinks

[sickhabbit]

If I bet half pot I think I have to call his shove and not too sure i'd be happy with that either.

You can bet the river for value,, check is fine but prob missing value, Bet sizing is good, fold to the shove.

[Flushdraw]

I think your bet sizing is too small on all streets.

I'd make it about 850 preflop, as played about 1350 on the flop and i'd probably just check behind in the river.

You shouldn't be betting the river unless you've already deicded if it's a snap call or snap fold if he shoves. If you're not sure what you're going to do, just check behind.

As played, it seems like an easy fold. He should never be check raising a hand that's worse than AK and it seems a strange spot to bluff

[Raoul Duke III]

villain has QQ imo

[ghostface]

I think your bet sizing is too small on all streets.

I'd make it about 850 preflop, as played about 1350 on the flop and i'd probably just check behind in the river.

You shouldn't be betting the river unless you've already deicded if it's a snap call or snap fold if he shoves. If you're not sure what you're going to do, just check behind.

Yeah agree with that alright.

On the bet sizing I would never make it 850 pre in this spot and I don't see the advantage to this other than greatly inflating the pot on all later streets. Prob just personnel preference

[gorrrr72]

C-bet on the flop is ok. In position I would have taken the free card on the turn and b/f the river.

It's a marginal value bet on the river now, if I'm bluffing 2 streets and bink the river I check behind as a default. Been caught with the old flopped 2 pair/set too many times.

I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense that you should have AK here but is he really calling 3 barrels with 1 pair now? I'm not sure if he is. Normally you would think he is waiting for you to slow down if he has 99/1010 etc.

Against a passive player I might bet the river but against an unknown or scandie I think it's a check behind.

Edit: Fold now.

[danutpeddler]

What card on the flop was the same suit as the Q ste?

[Starvin Marvin]

Wp.

Id make it a bit more pre alright though and half pot turn and slightly more on river.
I like the 3 barrells though.
Fold now, its never an elaborate bluff for his tank in level 2.

[NuckChorris]

Fold now, its never an elaborate bluff for his tank in level 2.

These days it can be. Would be a great, great play and doesn't happen very often. But a 550 game is around the right level where I'd expect to start seeing moves like this. I like your play Ste, but I'd like his more if it was a bluff!

[DrJFF]

How crazy a scandie is he?

i doubt he has a set as a scandi should play it way more fast than this,


i think his range is weighted more to two pair type hands like A8 and bluffs,


the more i think about it and the fact he is a scandie i might sigh call,


however i'd check the river back here and be glad to get to showdown, every other street is played fine,

[Flushdraw]

Yeah agree with that alright.

On the bet sizing I would never make it 850 pre in this spot and I don't see the advantage to this other than greatly inflating the pot on all later streets. Prob just personnel preference

If UTG raised and didn't get a caller, i'm probably 3betting to 600/650. With the caller you have to make it more. When you make it 600, UTG+1 should not be folding anything he called UTG with. Playing a 3way pot against 2 players when holding AK is never ideal

As played, you're playing a 1950 pot against 2 opponents, if you raise more you can play a 1850 pot against 1 player and the hand will be easier to play imo

[Starvin Marvin]

These days it can be. Would be a great, great play and doesn't happen very often. But a 550 game is around the right level where I'd expect to start seeing moves like this. I like your play Ste, but I'd like his more if it was a bluff!

Possibly but as you say still rare in level 2, and pretty much never oop on a board like this.

I wouldnt be expecting to get many many folds after Ste 3bets pre and barrells off, AK is the only value hand he can fold. QQ and AA snap and he might check back the river with KK or JJ.

Id be pretty shocked if he turned over air here.

[Wombatman]

The Q on the turn brings you a flushdraw?

[ghostface]

The Q on the turn brings you a flushdraw?

Apologies Q on turn does not improve my hand, it brings a possible flush draw for whatever suit it was. Apologies to the nutpeddlar for not being able to recall, i'm going with a red Q tho

[Wombatman]

Pre: Bet more
Flop: Bet more
Turn: Before you bet, if you bet here, you need to have a plan for the river if you hit or miss your 8 semi-bluff cards. Don't bet out here without a plan for the river eventualities. What your plan for a blank river and a check by him for example. I have difficulty doing this live in the heat of the moment and it's something I really need to work on. I bet here but make it at least half of the pot.
River: I can't see him calling with worse considering the action on all streets and I know I'm not calling a shove so I check back.

[danutpeddler]

No worries, TPTK on flop with turned NFD is a definite possible hand for the villain to have so the Q being the same suit as the 8 makes a difference if you get me.

I think the important thing to be thinking in this hand is.

What am I trying to get him to fold on the turn?
What am I trying to get him to call on the river?

Presuming he's not hollywooding you have his range on 99 -JJ, 67 and a8,
I make it more on turn and river also.

If I'm betting the river I'd be calling a shove vs this type of player so might chk back. You've got two streets lets not forget.
Then again if I'm on the 67 turned FD for example, I'm most likely barrelling the ace so gotta balance all that

[blaaaaaaah]

Just wanted to post this for some views as had no clue what was going on at the time. Prob easy check on river but...

2nd level - Blinds 50/100

UTG (think is Istanbul from here) c. 15k
UTG +1 (scandie seemed decent from few hands played) c. 14k
Hero UTG +2 c. 23k - Have played a few hands early but shown goods

UTG makes it 175 (thought was previous level) deemed a min raise 200
UTG +1 calls
Hero makes it 600 with AK, both players call (Pot 1950)

Flop of 8 5 3 rainbow, checked to me and cbet 950, UTG folds and UTG+1 calls after a slight dwell (Pot 3900)

Turn - Q bringing flushdraw. UTG+1 checks again, i decide to have another pop at it and possibly give up on river if called. I bet 1500 and after a long dwell he calls. He did not seem very comfortable making this call (Pot 6900)

River - A (no flush). Again its checked to me. I thought this was a good card for me and checking behind would lose value so made a small 'value' bet of 2200. Back to villain who announces all in for another c. 8.5k back to me

Any thoughts on this welcome, was hand butchered from start to finish, possible hand for villain?

Cheers

It's only the 50-100 level and your 3betting ak already, not a great idea to be doing tbh as you inflate pots and your always going to get more than 1 caller most of the time because blinds are so low. If you flat and take a flop your hand is well diguised and also you don't end up in this awful spot you have created which is pretty bad for being the 2nd level and all.

I suppose its ok to cbet the flop seen as its so dry but this does look like the sort of 'im in to hit my set sort of flop' from your opponents, but still they miss alot so I don't really mind your cbet.

Turn is horrible bet imo, sure it looks to be a great bluff card for you but again it was a rainbow flop and your opponent has shown interest, should be saving this kind of aggression for later in the tourny as ppl will not be in there with the small pairs trying to hit sets which in turn gives you alot more confidence to double barrel these sort of boards as you will win these pots alot lot more.

I wouldn't mind your river bet at all here if this hand was later in tourny or slightly different board texture like 8,2,3...Q...A, I would really incourage it as more times than not it will be 99,1010 and jj calling you down.

Didn't read everyones responses in the thread had not got time so sorry if bits of this was already said.

[Flushdraw]

It's only the 50-100 level and your 3betting ak already, not a great idea to be doing tbh as you inflate pots and your always going to get more than 1 caller most of the time because blinds are so low. If you flat and take a flop your hand is well diguised and also you don't end up in this awful spot you have created which is pretty bad for being the 2nd level and all.

Normally i'd agree and don't mind flatting with AK here when facing a raise this early in a tournament, but the fact it was a mistaken minraise means if we flat, we're bringing in the blinds and then we're playing AK in 5-6 way pot and will find it difficult to know where we stand. If UTG makes it 350 i could flat, but when he makes it 200, we have to raise

[blaaaaaaah]

Normally i'd agree and don't mind flatting with AK here when facing a raise this early in a tournament, but the fact it was a mistaken minraise means if we flat, we're bringing in the blinds and then we're playing AK in 5-6 way pot and will find it difficult to know where we stand. If UTG makes it 350 i could flat, but when he makes it 200, we have to raise

I agree it does make it tricky... but for me I prefer to be in a tricky spot with less chips in the pot rather than more chips in the pot with same tricky situation but also my tourny on the line. Just my thinking doh.

[Moneymaker]

I like how you played it and i'd fold now. Agree sizing should be a little bigger though.

I like the turn barrel and the river is a clear vbet.

[8611]

River: I can't see him calling with worse considering the action on all streets and I know I'm not calling a shove so I check back.

this is key for me, my instinct would have been to bet the river here but realistically what is he going to call you with now?

[ghostface]

Turn is horrible bet imo, sure it looks to be a great bluff card for you but again it was a rainbow flop and your opponent has shown interest, should be saving this kind of aggression for later in the tourny as ppl will not be in there with the small pairs trying to hit sets which in turn gives you alot more confidence to double barrel these sort of boards as you will win these pots alot lot more.

I don't get this at all Jason, a lot of times I think the bet on the turn will take the pot down. Just because someone calls a bet on what i would consider to be an uncoordinated flop I don't automatically shut down. To show this kind of aggression late in the tourn i need to have chips first which can be accumulated from spots like these?? Maybe not tho

Anyway cheers for all the responses, obviously folded to the river shove after a dwell and never found out his hand. Having talked to him continuously for the next few hands I don't think he bluffed in this spot but still really couldn't put him on a hand

[blaaaaaaah]

I don't get this at all Jason, a lot of times I think the bet on the turn will take the pot down. Just because someone calls a bet on what i would consider to be an uncoordinated flop I don't automatically shut down. To show this kind of aggression late in the tourn i need to have chips first which can be accumulated from spots like these?? Maybe not tho

Anyway cheers for all the responses, obviously folded to the river shove after a dwell and never found out his hand. Having talked to him continuously for the next few hands I don't think he bluffed in this spot but still really couldn't put him on a hand

Sorry if that came off confusing ste...my bad.

My point was this, at this early stage of a tourny ppl will be calling with hands like small pairs which hit this flop, but later in a tourny (same amount of bb in your stack) ppl will not be playing these type hands to your 3bet therefore you can almost rule out the possibilty of a set hence making the 2 barrel alot more successfull.

To me this board is a tricky one especially as its semi-connected and rainbow which means it is a hole lot more likely a set is callin you than a random pair hand (like you said your opponent looks pretty competant) in this situation. Then I was explaining if the board came 8,2,3 it would be fine to take your line in the hand if you wished as it is less likely your opponent has a set. Let me put it another way, It's like having a double paired hand in omaha you are twice as likely to flop your set and this would be the same for this flop 8,5,3 it is twice as likely your opponent has a set there.

I'm not saying never continuation bet or double barrel, I do it all the time but just have a look at that board texture before you go with the double barrell and especially as it's also rainbow flop.

It has saved me alot from going broke or damaging my stack to beyond repair in tournys if i have the big over pair in this spot etc etc.

Also just to put in, if you had checked the turn i'm sure the scandi would have bet the river for value and at least then you would have a cheaper showdown if you did indeed decide to call him.

[Mellor]

I double barrell, check behind here. Looks like an easy fold now.

but, as mentioned, your betsizing is terrible.
PF - 600 if nobody else plays, leaves it 400 more into 1150 for UTG (who thought he was opening to 3.5bbs), and then 400 into 1550 for the guy who flatted. Just because UTG mniraised, you have to treat it as he intended. I make it close to PSB, say 800-900

Flop - You bet less than half, I'd be making it half to 3/4, as played say 1300

Turn - again too small imo

[Starvin Marvin]

Then I was explaining if the board came 8,2,3 it would be fine to take your line in the hand if you wished as it is less likely your opponent has a set. Let me put it another way, It's like having a double paired hand in omaha you are twice as likely to flop your set and this would be the same for this flop 8,5,3 it is twice as likely your opponent has a set there.

How is it.

Hes just as likely to have 22 as 55.

[blaaaaaaah]

How is it.

Hes just as likely to have 22 as 55.

Not at all he would never call with 22 utg +1!

[Starvin Marvin]

Not at all he would never call with 22 utg +1!

So he calls a min raise utg +1 with 55 but not with 22??

He calls both imo.

[Downtown]

Sorry if that came off confusing ste...my bad.

My point was this, at this early stage of a tourny ppl will be calling with hands like small pairs which hit this flop, but later in a tourny (same amount of bb in your stack) ppl will not be playing these type hands to your 3bet therefore you can almost rule out the possibilty of a set hence making the 2 barrel alot more successfull.

To me this board is a tricky one especially as its semi-connected and rainbow which means it is a hole lot more likely a set is callin you than a random pair hand (like you said your opponent looks pretty competant) in this situation. Then I was explaining if the board came 8,2,3 it would be fine to take your line in the hand if you wished as it is less likely your opponent has a set. Let me put it another way, It's like having a double paired hand in omaha you are twice as likely to flop your set and this would be the same for this flop 8,5,3 it is twice as likely your opponent has a set there.

I'm not saying never continuation bet or double barrel, I do it all the time but just have a look at that board texture before you go with the double barrell and especially as it's also rainbow flop.

It has saved me alot from going broke or damaging my stack to beyond repair in tournys if i have the big over pair in this spot etc etc.

Also just to put in, if you had checked the turn i'm sure the scandi would have bet the river for value and at least then you would have a cheaper showdown if you did indeed decide to call him.

There is alot wrong with this post. Why do you think he would call with 55 from UTG+1 and not 22?? Im pretty sure if he is calling with 55, he is calling for set value, hence doesnt matter if he has 22.

I think as has been said the bet sizing is wrong so no need to dwell on that. You have to look at what your hand looks like Ste. There are not many hands you play that way except AA, AK or a bluff. Usually players that bet all 3 streets are either bluffing or have a monster. If he is a good player he will notice this. He is never bluffing here. The ace is a great card to check to you, you will almost bet this river 100% regardless of your hand.

Id check back the turn, dont like double barrelling so early in tournies. Then Id call the river or bet/fold if checked to me. Work on your bet-sizing and pot control. All in all, nothing too bad with the way you played it.

[blaaaaaaah]

Ha you said alot was wrong with my post, but you only said one thing which was 22 n 55 having no difference. It has a pretty big crucial difference tbf that you can continue on alot more flops with 55 than 22...effectively 22 is all about calling for a set or else you fold. With 55 this is not the case,you can continue on with 55 on low flops or co-ordinated flops like j,2,4 as you will sometimes have the best hand plus stops the leak of 'ah i'm only in for my set...fold'.

[Downtown]

Ha you said alot was wrong with my post, but you only said one thing which was 22 n 55 having no difference. It has a pretty big crucial difference tbf that you can continue on alot more flops with 55 than 22...effectively 22 is all about calling for a set or else you fold. With 55 this is not the case,you can continue on with 55 on low flops or co-ordinated flops like j,2,4 as you will sometimes have the best hand plus stops the leak of 'ah i'm only in for my set...fold'.

Hey Jason,

I really have to disagree. Sure with 55 you can continue on different boards but dont think that makes too big a difference here and to most players they would just be calling here for set value so 22 or 55 is irrelevant to most players. Infact when calling oop with 55 and continuing on a board of J 2 4 can be a major leak as you can sometimes lose your way alot of the time. With your abilities of pot control and knowledge of tournament poker, I couldnt see you making that mistake. I doubt you would find yourself oop continuing with 55 on a J 2 4 board too often is what I'm saying.

I said alot was wrong with your post because this took up most of it. I dont think that on a Q 5 8 it is more likely that the player has a set from a flop of Q 5 2.

Also dont know why you would shove the flop? think my reasons for calling flop and check shoving turn is more profitable in the long term.

[Starvin Marvin]

So to be clear you are saying you think that he never has 22 in this spot but will have 55.

You can also continue with 22 on low flops or flops like J54 as you will sometimes have the best hand the same as you are saying with 55 above.

[8611]

in fairness he will have 22 < than he has 55, he will have 55 < than he will have 88 etc.

slightly less but less nonetheless.

i think he either had A8 or he was hollywooding here. or completely bluffing but he'd be close to insane to bluff that river (albeit he did get you to fold A top kicker)

[TommyGunne]

I don't 3b here. We're vs an UTG and UTG+1 early in a tournament. Don't really wanna be putting the stack on the line preflop anyway. Certainly not getting it in pre. I see very little upside in 3betting. Think I'm gonna be more polarised than this.

That being said, flop is now an interesting choice. Your two opponents now clearly have very strong hands, so you're not getting them to fold too much, but I think if you do bluff a hand and you have AK in your range and not the small connectors, its probably a hand you want to bluff with, but obv not with a full weighting cos of combos. That being said, I don't 3b, and have different hands to bluff with in this spot.

Firing turn is fine I think, and I think river is a check back. Your hand range is pretty much super strong now. Its not like you'd be firing KK on the river, and I don't expect many people to be able to show up with double barrelled small cards very often, so I'd just check her back.

Clear fold now given that this is the worst hand you vb the river with (given you vb it in this case.)

[TommyGunne]

Also, lolz if he shows up with A8 in so so so so many ways.

[blaaaaaaah]

Hey Jason,

I really have to disagree. Sure with 55 you can continue on different boards but dont think that makes too big a difference here and to most players they would just be calling here for set value so 22 or 55 is irrelevant to most players. Infact when calling oop with 55 and continuing on a board of J 2 4 can be a major leak as you can sometimes lose your way alot of the time. With your abilities of pot control and knowledge of tournament poker, I couldnt see you making that mistake. I doubt you would find yourself oop continuing with 55 on a J 2 4 board too often is what I'm saying.

I said alot was wrong with your post because this took up most of it. I dont think that on a Q 5 8 it is more likely that the player has a set from a flop of Q 5 2.

Also dont know why you would shove the flop? think my reasons for calling flop and check shoving turn is more profitable in the long term.

Hey Rory hows things...

Of course your right I would not be calling ppl down oop with small pair but this would occur of course but I wouldn't have 22 trying to do it. I also I was not giving my answer based on a normal player I was just giving every detail into the way I think and basically a different insight into the hand and also based on what a decent player would be doing as Ste says his opponent is a decent player.

Again only an insight to the way I think in tournaments, make of it what you will

Are you playing ipo?

Oh and sorry Rory what were you on about when you said shoving all in? Is that the other hand I posted in with the Aces? If so i didn't read into it that much I just wanted to point out I pretty much never fold here. I just checked what you wrote you pretty much said exactly how to play it. Nice post.

[blaaaaaaah]

So to be clear you are saying you think that he never has 22 in this spot but will have 55.

You can also continue with 22 on low flops or flops like J54 as you will sometimes have the best hand the same as you are saying with 55 above.

No I am saying and to be clear, that he has 55 alot more than 22. How many times do you continue with 22 on flops without a duece? Do you always play 22 same as 55 like this?

The thing is and i'm sure of this, you never continue with 22 if you miss yet i'm sure you have done it more than a few occasions holding 55, maybe to see if he slows down or you know he is bluffing. This is my point and the decent player knows this especially if he is scandi!

Again no problem at all if you do not like my thinking but its just like what I said to Rory it's just an insight to the way I think and that is all.

[Starvin Marvin]

22 and 55 make up the same part of his range here imo.
He calls a min raise pre with both, and closing the action to the 3bet getting a great price he has to peel a flop with both also.

Different views and discussion are always good.

[Downtown]

Hey Rory hows things...

Of course your right I would not be calling ppl down oop with small pair but this would occur of course but I wouldn't have 22 trying to do it. I also I was not giving my answer based on a normal player I was just giving every detail into the way I think and basically a different insight into the hand and also based on what a decent player would be doing as Ste says his opponent is a decent player.

Again only an insight to the way I think in tournaments, make of it what you will

Are you playing ipo?

Oh and sorry Rory what were you on about when you said shoving all in? Is that the other hand I posted in with the Aces? If so i didn't read into it that much I just wanted to point out I pretty much never fold here. I just checked what you wrote you pretty much said exactly how to play it. Nice post.

Yeh sorry was getting the 2 hands mixed up! yeh gonna play IPO Friday. see you there Also, I agree with everything you say in the hand about not 3 betting preflop etc. Just think that 22 and 55 make up same percent of his range, certainly not enough difference to make a difference. Good stuff.