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[Taxes] Become a tax resident in Ireland. What to do ?

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    [Taxes] Become a tax resident in Ireland. What to do ?

    Hi,

    I am a french professional poker player, I have moved in Ireland in August 2010, and I would like to become an irish tax resident in 2011 and up.

    I have a lot of difficulties to find answer to my questions. I have found this page : http://www.revenue.ie/en/personal/ci...residence.html but I don't know how to do, because I have no employer.

    What kind of paperwork must I fill ? My only income is from my poker winnings. How do other irish poker professional players ? Should I declare myself for "self-employed" http://www.revenue.ie/en/personal/ci...ndividual.html ?

    I've send an email to mayo@revenue.ie, but I have not received answer

    Thanks to give me advices or links,

    Cheers,

    Xerxes

    #2
    Hi Xerxes,

    In Ireland, no tax is paid on gambling winnings so you do not have to declare anything to my knowledge.
    No forms, no paperwork.
    People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
    Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
    https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
      Hi,

      I am a french poker player.........

      ...........poker winnings.

      Comment


        #4
        Fair play for being so honest!

        Comment


          #5
          you have to live here as your primary residence for 3 years

          Comment


            #6
            You can even pick up extra rakeback at your post office once a week.
            Pm for rakeback deals

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
              Hi Xerxes,

              In Ireland, no tax is paid on gambling winnings so you do not have to declare anything to my knowledge.
              No forms, no paperwork.
              the issue is more the legal side of things. if you're a foreigner and come to work here, after 9 months i think, you become a tax resident. the problem with being a poker player is it's difficult to prove you live here as you contribute nothing in tax. you're almost better off getting a part time job for a few months so you are "in the system" so to speak

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                Hi Xerxes,

                In Ireland, no tax is paid on gambling winnings so you do not have to declare anything to my knowledge.
                No forms, no paperwork.
                Yeah, the problem with that is when I'll come back in France in 3/4 years, I need proofs that I was irish fiscal resident (even if my taxes was 0 euro). Because I would like be able to come back in France with my poker winnings. If I have no proofs, I must pay a lot of taxes and penalties (something like 80%). With proofs, I will be tax free.

                Originally posted by CheckRaise View Post
                you have to live here as your primary residence for 3 years
                I've read on differents websites (french official and irish official), that I need only to live half year + 1 day (so 183 days) to be able to be irish resident. I live 11 months/year in Ireland, I have electricity bills/internet bill/rent bill, so it doesn't seems to be the major difficulty for me.

                So, I really need something to formalize than I live in Ireland and that I "pay" my taxes here. But how ???




                Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                You can even pick up extra rakeback at your post office once a week.
                Yeah, and bang the post office girl too
                Last edited by Xerxes; 04-10-11, 18:21.

                Comment


                  #9
                  If no-one can offer you more definitive advice in this thread, I'd suggest searching this website or phoneing them: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/

                  They are excellent everytime I've wanted to know something like this.
                  By Phone: By phoning the Citizens Information Phone Service. Lo Call 1890 777 121 or +353 21 452 1600

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                    Yeah, and bang the post office girl too
                    No, that would be rape.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      She would defo give it up if she knows he is a balla french pokie pro with mirrrions online.
                      location green and yellow stretford end

                      Comment


                        #12
                        http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/res1.html

                        Tests of residence

                        Test 1

                        The first tax residence test is that an individual is regarded as resident in the State for tax purposes for any tax year in which he or she spends 183 days or more in the State.

                        Test 2

                        Where the time spent in the State in a tax year is less than 183 days, then the second test comes into play. The second tax residence test is the 280 days two-year test and involves taking account of an individual’s presence in the State, not alone in one tax year, but also in the preceding tax year. Under this test an individual is regarded as tax resident in the State for tax purposes for any year in which he or she spends a total of 280 days or more in the State in the tax year and in the immediately preceding tax year. However, this test will not apply in any year that an individual is present in the State for not more than 30 days.

                        .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................

                        Option to elect to be tax resident in the State for a tax year

                        An individual who comes to live or work in the State, and who would not be tax resident for the year of arrival under the normal tests, may elect to be tax resident for the year of arrival.

                        One reason for electing to be resident is to avail of full personal tax credits (see Leaflet IT1 - Tax Credits, Reliefs & Rates for 2009 and 2010 for a list of available tax credits and reliefs).

                        A condition of making an election is that you must establish to the satisfaction of an authorised officer of the Revenue Commissioners that you will be resident here in the following tax year under any one of the tests mentioned above. Once such an election is made it cannot subsequently be cancelled.

                        An election may be made in writing to your local Revenue office.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          basically you can go down to the dole office in the morning and sign on,
                          you don't have to pay taxes on gambling winnings (at least for the moment anyhow)



                          "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Ye obviously have different girls working in the post office than the post offices that i frequent. Ive never seen someone work in a post office that id consider do-able.


                            On a serious note your issue is pretty unique. I cant really offer any insight but i vaguely recall a similar thread on the old forum and i think there was a few good suggestions.
                            Pm for rakeback deals

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ste05 View Post
                              If no-one can offer you more definitive advice in this thread, I'd suggest searching this website or phoneing them: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/

                              They are excellent everytime I've wanted to know something like this.
                              This is probably the best advice, the citizens info crowd are usually on the ball.


                              From what I can remember, you need to declare, immediately, to both the Irish and French Authorities your intention to reside and be a fiscal resident here.

                              The test they will both apply, based on communal tax treaties, is that you reside here for greater than 183 days out of 365 in one calendar year [not in one tax year] - but they will only begin to calculate that 183 from the point you inform them of your intention to be subject to taxes here.

                              Things like evidence of renting a property, date of opening a bank account etc... will be help you in establishing your residence.

                              Into the future, you will have to fill in an annual tax return form [form 11], as a self employed person. Basically you make a return of Zero eligible to be taxed and make a declaration why [ie that your income is not taxable] - the revenue then assess you at zero every year.

                              When you want to go back to France, or move any of your money back, you get a certificate of compliance from the irish revenue, and that lets you bring your money back to France [or anywhere else in the world] without further tax difficutly.

                              That aside, the best advice is still to contact that the citizens information crowd, although from experience dealing with Revenue information people can be helpful too. Maybe ring them rather than send email.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Thanks a lot Lplated, it's very useful advices

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  So, I have had a first answer from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/ and it is not seems very clear that poker winnings are tax free :

                                  "Hi thank you for your email. We checked with the tax office who state that the income from poker is assessible for tax. You need to get a self assessment tax form and make a return to the revenue. The tax office in Mayo is based in Michael Davitt House Breaffy road Castlebar tel 0949037000."
                                  I will go directly in Castlebar tomorrow, and I will ask my questions to the Tax Office, and I hope good news...

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    No, winnings from poker are not taxable.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                                      So, I have had a first answer from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/ and it is not seems very clear that poker winnings are tax free :



                                      I will go directly in Castlebar tomorrow, and I will ask my questions to the Tax Office, and I hope good news...
                                      Ignore them. Whomever said that is incorrect.
                                      You're welcome.
                                      X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
                                      Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!

                                      $ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by IrishKestrel
                                        OK - so here's the boring technical answer......

                                        Income from Poker is treated under Capital Gains Tax (25%) legislation, as opposed to Income Tax (41%) legislation.

                                        However, S 613 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 (..told you this would be boring...) covers this off.

                                        "Winnings from betting (including pool betting), lotteries, sweepstakes, or games with prizes shall not be chargeable gains.."

                                        and for those who like to 'stake' people into tourneys

                                        "...and rights to winnings obtained by participating in any pool betting, lottery, sweepstake or game with prizes shall not be chargeable assets."

                                        TRANSLATION: It is tax free income. If it was a good enough excuse for our former Taoiseach to avoid tax problems, your sorted.

                                        Your money in your bank account is as safe as a house / bank / Fianna Fail TD / ?????.
                                        .

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I will print some of your answers and show them to the Tax Office if they are not kind with me

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Fuzzy Logic View Post
                                            No, winnings from poker are not taxable.
                                            Originally posted by Sometime Happy Dude View Post
                                            Ignore them. Whomever said that is incorrect.
                                            You're welcome.
                                            not sure if assessable necessarily means 'you will have to pay tax'

                                            As Shrapnel said earlier in the thread, you might be best just getting a small part-time job just to get yourself on the system. Either that or directly ring the Revenue Commissioners - they're highly efficient and should get you sorted out pronto without all this going through intermediaries.

                                            EDIT: ah right see you are going to call into them. That'll sort it out quick enough then. Although tbh I'd imagine they send the problem kids to work in somewhere like Castlebar, so you might be best just giving them a ring if you don't get the answer you want tomorrow.
                                            "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                                              I will print some of your answers and show them to the Tax Office if they are not kind with me

                                              Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide to... View Post
                                              I'd imagine they send the problem kids to work in somewhere like Castlebar

                                              Sweet. Hello Castlebar Tax Office!
                                              "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Sorry only got to reading the whole thread now. It's been some time since I had any involvement in tax issues in Ireland but here goes my somewhat rusty memory.

                                                1. You declare as self-employed but you have no taxable income --> you are not paying tax in Ireland.

                                                2. A lot depends on the tax laws in France. For example, if the situation was reversed, I would be ordinarily tax resident in Ireland for 3 years after I leave, meaning any income I send back to Ireland is open to taxation on the difference in tax rates I may be paying in France and what I would have to pay in Ireland.

                                                So if, for example, poker winnings were subject to tax in France, and France taxed a French national on their worldwide income, then you would be liable to pay the French tax authorities whatever the liability is. However, if French tax laws were similar to Irish laws, then you would only be liable to pay tax on any income earned once you sent it back to France. (The French authorities would also have to become aware you were sending the money back!)

                                                3. To enter the PAYE system in Ireland, you would need to earn income which is taxable under the Irish tax laws. If you really wanted to do this, then as you say above, you would need to get a job. Prior to this you need to be issued a PPS number from the Dept of Social and Family Affairs. Once you have a PPS and get a job, you will need to fill out a Form 12A, this is so the employer can inform the Revenue Commissioners that you have begun to work and earn income which will be assessed under Irish tax laws. You will be issued a tax deduction card which will itemise your tax free allowances for the year.

                                                Read this for details on who pays PAYE in Ireland: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/who-pays.html

                                                Hope this helps...

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide to... View Post
                                                  not sure if assessable necessarily means 'you will have to pay tax'
                                                  Gains from Poker come under S613 of the TCA 1997, here you go if you really want to confirm:

                                                  http://www.charteredaccountants.ie/t...9/sec0613.html

                                                  I will highlight the salient section

                                                  613 Miscellaneous exemptions for certain kinds of property.

                                                  (2) Winnings from betting (including pool betting), lotteries, sweepstakes or games with prizes shall not be chargeable gains, and rights to winnings obtained by participating in any pool betting, lottery, sweepstake or game with prizes shall not be chargeable assets.

                                                  Hence my comment, not taxable nor assessed under Irish tax laws.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Fuzzy Logic View Post
                                                    Gains from Poker come under S613 of the TCA 1997, here you go if you really want to confirm:

                                                    http://www.charteredaccountants.ie/t...9/sec0613.html

                                                    I will highlight the salient section

                                                    613 Miscellaneous exemptions for certain kinds of property.

                                                    (2) Winnings from betting (including pool betting), lotteries, sweepstakes or games with prizes shall not be chargeable gains, and rights to winnings obtained by participating in any pool betting, lottery, sweepstake or game with prizes shall not be chargeable assets.

                                                    Hence my comment, not taxable nor assessed under Irish tax laws.
                                                    My bad, was just a vague memory from a tax class 16 years ago tbh. Thought it might be in the same way as you have to declare artistic income even though you won't have to pay any tax on it up to a certain amount. Cheers.
                                                    "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Fuzzy Logic View Post
                                                      1. You declare as self-employed but you have no taxable income --> you are not paying tax in Ireland.

                                                      2. A lot depends on the tax laws in France. For example, if the situation was reversed, I would be ordinarily tax resident in Ireland for 3 years after I leave, meaning any income I send back to Ireland is open to taxation on the difference in tax rates I may be paying in France and what I would have to pay in Ireland.
                                                      1) All my poker winnings will stay in Ireland. I am opening an irish bank account right now, where I will put my poker winnings.

                                                      Prior to this you need to be issued a PPS number from the Dept of Social and Family Affairs.
                                                      2) I already have a PPS number, asked by my tenant, 1 year ago.

                                                      3. To enter the PAYE system in Ireland, you would need to earn income which is taxable under the Irish tax laws. If you really wanted to do this, then as you say above, you would need to get a job.
                                                      3) I really don't want to take a job.

                                                      4) I will directly go to the Tax Office in Castlebar, because I am not very confident in my english when I am speaking on the phone.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                                                        1) All my poker winnings will stay in Ireland. I am opening an irish bank account right now, where I will put my poker winnings.



                                                        2) I already have a PPS number, asked by my tenant, 1 year ago.



                                                        3) I really don't want to take a job.

                                                        4) I will directly go to the Tax Office in Castlebar, because I am not very confident in my english when I am speaking on the phone.
                                                        Ok, well if you don't want to get a job and live off your poker winnings, then what is the problem? You don't need to do anything.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I've already explained it in post #8

                                                          http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...93&postcount=8

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                                                            I've already explained it in post #8

                                                            http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...93&postcount=8
                                                            lol, I did say I hadn't read the full thread. Yes, to be resident in Ireland for tax purposes you need to be here for 183 days in any one tax year, or 280 days over a 2 year period.

                                                            Easiest way that I can think of is to prove you are resident for tax purposes is to request a personal income tax calculation now that you have your PPS number. In order for the revenue office to do this they will need to calculate your tax free allowances and provide you with the calculation. It will be nil and should suit your requirements.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Go to the tax office and register as self employed. Assuming you have no other Income submit an annual return showing zero taxable income. Your main issue will be if u wish to remit the money to another state later on (eg France). For that u will need to consult tax authorities in France or wherever. there are a lot of factors to consider. Even in year 1 of residing in Ireland you might be taxable in France if that is where u have always paid tax. totally depends on French tax law so get advice there also.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                So, I went to the Tax Office today, and apparently, my situation is very weird, because I have had no answers at all.

                                                                They have taken my adress and will send me by the Post what to do, so wait & see.

                                                                They only give me a "Tax Registration" paper (TR1), that I must fill and send back to them when they will send me by the Post the papers...

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  You didnt need to mention poker or gambling to them at all that over complicates it.

                                                                  You need to go to the TAX office and state you want to be registered as self employed, then in October each year file a form 11 stating no income or expenses.

                                                                  jobs a good un.....

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    ask an accuntant.. let me know if you need one and I can give you contact details of mine
                                                                    Buy and Sell bitcoin in Ireland with Bitireland Broker Ltd.
                                                                    www.bitireland.ie

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Thanks, Stoko. I will just wait the answer of the Tax Office, and I will decide what to do !

                                                                      Just a question : in October of this year, must Irish fill the Tax Return for the year 2010 ? So, it's only in October 2012, that I must have to return Form 11 (for revenues earn in 2011) to Tax Office ?

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Xerxes View Post
                                                                        Thanks, Stoko. I will just wait the answer of the Tax Office, and I will decide what to do !

                                                                        Just a question : in October of this year, must Irish fill the Tax Return for the year 2010 ? So, it's only in October 2012, that I must have to return Form 11 (for revenues earn in 2011) to Tax Office ?
                                                                        That is correct. Next time you go to the tax office, depending on your level of english it might be useful to take someone who can fully translate what you are trying to do. Also remember that no one in the tax office will advise you on what happens if your take money back to France. Fill in the form they sent you and get it away, the situation in Ireland will be v simple.

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          So, I got an afficial answer by email :

                                                                          "Being a resident of Ireland for tax purposes depends on the facts. If you are a resident of Ireland you are assessable to tax in Ireland on your worldwide income. The general approach in Ireland to gambling winnings is that they are not liable to income tax or capital gains tax. Case law tends to indicate that if gambling returns stem from pure chance and skill plays no part, those returns cannot be regarded as a trading receipt.


                                                                          Yours etc
                                                                          Fergus Burns
                                                                          Mayo Revenue District"
                                                                          Looks good. So now, I will just fill the Tax Registration form (TR1) and hope for the best.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Not liking the bit about
                                                                            "if gambling returns stem from pure chance and skill plays no part"

                                                                            That old debate about poker being a game of skill
                                                                            might just bite us in the ass if we're not careful.
                                                                            Last edited by DeeBrown; 24-10-11, 21:21.

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