It's an odd element of this topic that whenever Laz or I argue about it, we become part of the argument. The issues I am arguing are either arguable or not. How I feel about religion has no bearing on that. Pointing to it in this fashion is an attempt to undermine my argument solely by reference to me personally rather than by reference to the arguments I have made. Which is beneath you Mellor.
To say I haven’t referenced the points you made is a bit unfair.
It's often an error to argue about the accuracy of an analogy as you lose sight of the actual point being made. Perhaps we have both fallen into this trap.
SP made the school ownership to criticise the RE. I was pointing out his analogy doesn’t actually support his point, it supports the opposite (that doesn’t mean I support the opposite).
If the GAA owned a school and dictated the sporting program then that would be fine because, to the best of my knowledge, the GAA do not generally attempt to alter government policy on women's reproductive rights, who can marry whom etc.
Are you saying teachers can’t have an opinion on such matters, or only if it matches our stance?
Nor do they tell little children that if they don't confess their sins to a priest that eternal damnation and torment await them.
But what point are you making here? If people want their kids to be raised that way it’s not for us to say otherwise.
I am not dictating to anyone what they should believe. I have repeatedly said people should be free to profess their religion as they see fit. I just don't think that it has a place in a system of education since it is a belief system, not a field of study.
Free to do as they see fit - except for ways you disagree with. So in fact that’s not as they see fit then, it’s as you see fit.
I am pretty sure I have never said this. Mostly because I do not believe it. There are almost no private schools in Ireland and the ones we have are (I think) all non-denominational. I have no issues with private schools. I mean, how could I?
You also said that a significant amount of people in favour of it would not support its inclusion in public schools. Hardly democratic.
Whether or not Ireland has private schools is irrelevant. We’re not talking about the currents system. I’m not backing the current system. So attacking it doesn’t counter my point.
I am not telling anyone how to live their lives. I am asking for people not to insist on my children being forced to sit through a religious indoctrination. That seems reasonable enough to me.
I when I support parents’ right to choose how their kids are educated, I include you and your views. Choice is really all I’m supporting.
It's not a clanger Mellor. You read something into my post that was not there. If you want to have that argument - one you'd have a much better chance of arguing successfully - then it won't be with me. I don't care what churches do in the privacy of their own churches (within obvious limits). What I do have a problem with is forcing it on everyone else through a mandatory state-run process like education. I do not understand what the issue is with asking churches to take responsibility for teaching religion. Is this such a radical notion? Is it beyond the competency of a church to teach religion to children effectively? Does it have to be taught alongside maths and history and chemistry as if it was the same thing? Surely a priest would be better at teaching the doctrine of catholicism than anyone else? They are shepherds of their flocks aren't they? Let them shepherd.
In an attempt to dramatic or whatever you said all schools. As I said, a rushed post, you made some bad points. And this isn’t simply semantic wordplay. It’s pretty fundamental to the debate. It establishes that - People are free are organise churches that align to their beliefs. You seem to concede that above.
Whether or not the state should facilitate that is an separate matter. But should not be based on one view of how the state should operate. The will of the people should be how policies are formed in a democracy.
I do not personally want it there, but if 90% of the country do want it in state schools I’d accept it. As I expect religious people to accept the opposite.
I obvious it’s not as lob-sided as that. Therein lies the issue. I’d like the solution to be a mix of schools for all that align to their choices. Not 100% one way or the other.
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