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    It's an odd element of this topic that whenever Laz or I argue about it, we become part of the argument. The issues I am arguing are either arguable or not. How I feel about religion has no bearing on that. Pointing to it in this fashion is an attempt to undermine my argument solely by reference to me personally rather than by reference to the arguments I have made. Which is beneath you Mellor.
    That’s pretty disingenuous Keith. At no point have I made you part of my argument. I pointed out that your emotions on the topic is leading to you making rushed and ill-formed points. It’s uncharacteristic of you. It was observation, not a argument supporting my position.

    To say I haven’t referenced the points you made is a bit unfair.
    It's often an error to argue about the accuracy of an analogy as you lose sight of the actual point being made. Perhaps we have both fallen into this trap.
    I can fully agree that’s exactly the trap you fell into in your rush to play the “religion is fantasy card”. That was my point.

    SP made the school ownership to criticise the RE. I was pointing out his analogy doesn’t actually support his point, it supports the opposite (that doesn’t mean I support the opposite).
    If the GAA owned a school and dictated the sporting program then that would be fine because, to the best of my knowledge, the GAA do not generally attempt to alter government policy on women's reproductive rights, who can marry whom etc.
    Both of those feel like entirely separate issues. But there have been many national referenda precisely on altering government position on those matters. I’m sure we all had a view.

    Are you saying teachers can’t have an opinion on such matters, or only if it matches our stance?
    Nor do they tell little children that if they don't confess their sins to a priest that eternal damnation and torment await them.
    Yeah religion is crazy.

    But what point are you making here? If people want their kids to be raised that way it’s not for us to say otherwise.
    I am not dictating to anyone what they should believe. I have repeatedly said people should be free to profess their religion as they see fit. I just don't think that it has a place in a system of education since it is a belief system, not a field of study.
    You have repeatedly said that. But it’s not really accurate is it?

    Free to do as they see fit - except for ways you disagree with. So in fact that’s not as they see fit then, it’s as you see fit.
    I am pretty sure I have never said this. Mostly because I do not believe it. There are almost no private schools in Ireland and the ones we have are (I think) all non-denominational. I have no issues with private schools. I mean, how could I?
    Hmm pretty sure? Well I’m 100% sure that you did say it, as I called it out in the last post. I don’t have the exact quote. But you referenced a number of times how it has no place in any school/educational institution. Any school.

    You also said that a significant amount of people in favour of it would not support its inclusion in public schools. Hardly democratic.

    Whether or not Ireland has private schools is irrelevant. We’re not talking about the currents system. I’m not backing the current system. So attacking it doesn’t counter my point.
    I am not telling anyone how to live their lives. I am asking for people not to insist on my children being forced to sit through a religious indoctrination. That seems reasonable enough to me.
    Have I suggested at any point that they should be forced to? A bit of a strawman tbh.
    I when I support parents’ right to choose how their kids are educated, I include you and your views. Choice is really all I’m supporting.
    It's not a clanger Mellor. You read something into my post that was not there. If you want to have that argument - one you'd have a much better chance of arguing successfully - then it won't be with me. I don't care what churches do in the privacy of their own churches (within obvious limits). What I do have a problem with is forcing it on everyone else through a mandatory state-run process like education. I do not understand what the issue is with asking churches to take responsibility for teaching religion. Is this such a radical notion? Is it beyond the competency of a church to teach religion to children effectively? Does it have to be taught alongside maths and history and chemistry as if it was the same thing? Surely a priest would be better at teaching the doctrine of catholicism than anyone else? They are shepherds of their flocks aren't they? Let them shepherd.
    Nothing in my post was “within churches”. We’re taking about within schools.

    In an attempt to dramatic or whatever you said all schools. As I said, a rushed post, you made some bad points. And this isn’t simply semantic wordplay. It’s pretty fundamental to the debate. It establishes that - People are free are organise churches that align to their beliefs. You seem to concede that above.

    Whether or not the state should facilitate that is an separate matter. But should not be based on one view of how the state should operate. The will of the people should be how policies are formed in a democracy.

    I do not personally want it there, but if 90% of the country do want it in state schools I’d accept it. As I expect religious people to accept the opposite.

    I obvious it’s not as lob-sided as that. Therein lies the issue. I’d like the solution to be a mix of schools for all that align to their choices. Not 100% one way or the other.

    Comment


      In
      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

      Comment


        1. oleras
        2. Strewelpeter
        3. Goodluck2me
        4. Dice75
        5. dobby
        6. RD3
        7. shrapnel
        8.



        Probably be 4.30 before I do the draw.
        Last edited by ArmaniJeans; 14-05-22, 12:34.

        Comment


          Monkeypox ........ Ah here! Leave it out!
          Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

          Comment


            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
            1. oleras
            2. Strewelpeter
            3. Goodluck2me
            4. Dice75
            5. dobby
            6. RD3
            7.
            8.



            Probably be 4.30 before I do the draw.
            inski!!!!!!!

            Comment


              and come on Toulouse!!!

              Comment


                ...
                Last edited by Hitchhiker's Guide To...; 21-05-22, 22:27.
                "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                Comment


                  ... In for Euorvison...

                  Comment


                    Yeah for eurovision
                    "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                    Comment


                      luckforsome completes Game 1.
                      Hitch first into G2.
                      I think it'll prob fill 8 places, plenty of regulars left.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                        luckforsome completes Game 1.
                        Hitch first into G2.
                        I think it'll prob fill 8 places, plenty of regulars left.
                        Go on then, I'll fill my ears with this tinny shit for the craic
                        I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                          Go on then, I'll fill my ears with this tinny shit for the craic
                          Do it properly though. No switching over to Jools for a 20 minute guitar solo by a blind black lesbian.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post

                            Do it properly though. No switching over to Jools for a 20 minute guitar solo by a blind black lesbian.
                            I just told my wife to prepare for an evening of taking the piss.

                            Am actually looking forward to it now

                            GFYDobby
                            I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                              Go on then, I'll fill my ears with this tinny shit for the craic
                              Wigs are de rigueur for the eurovision night in the shraaap household. Sun is out so bbq with friends then eurovision mayhem in the living room. The sillier the better. Amazingly the kids love it too, as hilarity is always at the rendez vous.

                              Comment


                                Sweet!

                                Comment


                                  Leinster looking sharp, but toulouse already looking sluggish. This is only ever going to finish one way sadly.

                                  Comment


                                    In for the spin in the Eurovision

                                    Comment


                                      Brutal stuff

                                      Last edited by Denny Crane; 14-05-22, 14:52.

                                      Comment


                                        I greened up on the Ukraine bet, 1.4 feels way too short with the voting system being so erratic and anyway my original plan was to double my money and get out, forgetting about it was a bonus. Made the mistake of mentioning it at home and have been blackguarded by daughters into sending profits to the red cross
                                        Turning millions into thousands

                                        Comment


                                          Haha, no turning that down in fairness
                                          I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                          Comment


                                            Unbelievable that Sexton remains every bit as good as he ever was.
                                            Turning millions into thousands

                                            Comment


                                              Eurovision Game 1. Countries were split into 3 groups of 8 via oddschecker w/o Ukraine market, then randomorg-ed.
                                              Only your worst two scores count, add them together and the lowest overall total wins.
                                              €25 a head, honour system. contact the winner and pay afterwards.

                                              Goodluck2me Greece Estonia Portugal
                                              luckforsome Italy Moldova Czechia
                                              Dice75 UK Netherlands Estonia
                                              shrapnel Poland Azerbaijan Netherlands
                                              Strewelpeter Sweden Australia Finland
                                              oleras Norway Finland Moldova
                                              RD3 Spain Czechia Australia
                                              dobby Serbia Portugal Azerbaijan

                                              Comment


                                                Game 2.
                                                1. Hitch.
                                                2. Lazare.
                                                3. balfejohn.
                                                4.
                                                5.
                                                6.
                                                7.
                                                8.

                                                5 spots available, still waiting on last years defending champions deadparrot and nailmick,
                                                Will run with 6 if need be, but still plenty of time to get to 8.
                                                Will check back in after Jordan Henderson's trophy lift.

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                                                  Game 2.
                                                  1. Hitch.
                                                  2. Lazare.
                                                  3. balfejohn.
                                                  4.
                                                  5.
                                                  6.
                                                  7.
                                                  8.

                                                  5 spots available, still waiting on last years defending champions deadparrot and nailmick,
                                                  Will run with 6 if need be, but still plenty of time to get to 8.
                                                  Will check back in after Jordan Henderson's trophy lift.
                                                  I'd go another entry if you are short numbers at kick off
                                                  Turning millions into thousands

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                    I greened up on the Ukraine bet, 1.4 feels way too short with the voting system being so erratic and anyway my original plan was to double my money and get out, forgetting about it was a bonus. Made the mistake of mentioning it at home and have been blackguarded by daughters into sending profits to the red cross
                                                    Starting to get a bit chicken....think ill pull the plug.
                                                    This too shall pass.

                                                    Comment


                                                      Something went wrong in the last column of that table, same countries as in the third column
                                                      Rectified now with the 200/1+ entries randomised.
                                                      Goodluck2me Greece Estonia Germany
                                                      luckforsome Italy Moldova Armenia
                                                      Dice75 UK Netherlands Switzerland
                                                      shrapnel Poland Azerbaijan Iceland
                                                      Strewelpeter Sweden Australia Romania
                                                      oleras Norway Finland Lithuania
                                                      RD3 Spain Czechia France
                                                      dobby Serbia Portugal Belgium

                                                      Comment


                                                        Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                                                        I just told my wife to prepare for an evening of taking the piss.

                                                        Am actually looking forward to it now

                                                        GFYDobby
                                                        no atheists in a fox hole m8. Welcome aboard

                                                        Comment


                                                          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                                                          Something went wrong in the last column of that table, same countries as in the third column
                                                          Rectified now with the 200/1+ entries randomised.
                                                          Goodluck2me Greece Estonia Germany
                                                          luckforsome Italy Moldova Armenia
                                                          Dice75 UK Netherlands Switzerland
                                                          shrapnel Poland Azerbaijan Iceland
                                                          Strewelpeter Sweden Australia Romania
                                                          oleras Norway Finland Lithuania
                                                          RD3 Spain Czechia France
                                                          dobby Serbia Portugal Belgium
                                                          Definitely better

                                                          Comment


                                                            Originally posted by shrapnel View Post
                                                            and come on Toulouse!!!
                                                            Destroyed. Although I backed Leinster to win me a very tidy amount at -24 and lose by 1pt, grr.
                                                            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                            Comment


                                                              Just turned on the last few mins of the FA Cup final. Pitch looks like a cabbage patch! WTF
                                                              "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                              Comment


                                                                Duke, show that AJ lad how to pimp will ya.

                                                                Can't watch this earshit without blood in the game
                                                                I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                Comment


                                                                  Loadsa time Laz. I believe.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                                                                    Game 2.
                                                                    1. Hitch.
                                                                    2. Lazare.
                                                                    3. balfejohn.
                                                                    4.
                                                                    5.
                                                                    6.
                                                                    7.
                                                                    8.

                                                                    5 spots available, still waiting on last years defending champions deadparrot and nailmick,
                                                                    Will run with 6 if need be, but still plenty of time to get to 8.
                                                                    Will check back in after Jordan Henderson's trophy lift.
                                                                    Last call people. DP, Chd, nickmail, GAB, ionaPaul, KK82 - where you this year folks?

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                                                                      Loadsa time Laz. I believe.
                                                                      Ah I'm ribbing. Will have a bit of craic watching it either way.
                                                                      I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        Stick DP in anyway, I'll cover for him if he doesn't show up. Winnings will go to him too. Guy is a superfan.
                                                                        I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          I'll give it til 8.15 which is roughly when the first song comes on.
                                                                          Hopefully the intro's will remind a few of the lagtards.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            Beers with Dobbs and Dice, providing my taxi arrives. Am I right in thinking this will only end well?
                                                                            "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              Sorry folks, doesn't look like Game 2 is happening due to lack of numbers.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                Nothing new as such in this but really does pull it all together and rips every bit of bullshit out there about crypto to pieces- regulators need to get on it- enough is enough




                                                                                To put it bluntly, the SEC needs to grow a pair. Because this space is provably negative sum. It can only harm investors. Everything in this space, for the most part, ticks boxes for stuff that the SEC is allowed to regulate, which it should regulate.

                                                                                Basically, there’s a fear among regulators—that I think started in the ‘80s—of being accused of “stifling innovation.” There’s no innovation to stifle. So regulate away. Because the problem with the current regulation model is they’re doing “let’s pick up the pieces afterward.” So after the things fall apart we’re going to go pick up the pieces, rather than “Hey, let’s stop things from falling apart in the first place,” which would save billions of dollars of investor money.
                                                                                Will you ever fuck off with that shite... you are easily one of the worst posters on here for this-Pokerhand

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  Respect to the Liverpool fans for Booing Prince William today- fair play
                                                                                  Will you ever fuck off with that shite... you are easily one of the worst posters on here for this-Pokerhand

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Interesting set by my Spanish picks.
                                                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      That performance from Ukraine is some moment.

                                                                                      Probably deserves to win on merit.

                                                                                      Spanish act was ahem eye-catching

                                                                                      What time does the voting start?
                                                                                      Turning millions into thousands

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                                        That performance from Ukraine is some moment.

                                                                                        Probably deserves to win on merit.

                                                                                        Spanish act was ahem eye-catching

                                                                                        What time does the voting start?
                                                                                        Another 90 minutes at least

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          Quite enjoyed that Lithuania track. Definitely best solo performance so far.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                                                                                            Sorry folks, doesn't look like Game 2 is happening due to lack of numbers.
                                                                                            Prob too late but will make up numbers if you are only one short.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              Originally posted by Degag View Post

                                                                                              Prob too late but will make up numbers if you are only one short.
                                                                                              Does that make six AJ with my DP add?
                                                                                              I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                                                                                                Does that make six AJ with my DP add?
                                                                                                I've just realised I've wasted my day with family birthdays and missed the annual sweepstake
                                                                                                I am a sad panda
                                                                                                People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                                Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                                                                https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                                                                                                  Does that make six AJ with my DP add?
                                                                                                  Would just be 5 (you, balfejohn, degag, hitch, dp).
                                                                                                  And not sure whether hitch/balfejohn would still be on for it seeing as they missed out on knowing which were their countries from the start.
                                                                                                  (Also about to start drinking soon!)

                                                                                                  edit actually 6 as SP mentioned a second entry.

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    Originally posted by Lazare View Post
                                                                                                    Stick DP in anyway, I'll cover for him if he doesn't show up. Winnings will go to him too. Guy is a superfan.
                                                                                                    You are doing God's work buddy




                                                                                                    People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                                    Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                                                                    https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      I'll put in a second entry on behalf of, eh, Lao Lao
                                                                                                      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        Yeah, was including SP.

                                                                                                        Ah, no bother if too late
                                                                                                        I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post

                                                                                                          Would just be 5 (you, balfejohn, degag, hitch, dp).
                                                                                                          And not sure whether hitch/balfejohn would still be on for it seeing as they missed out on knowing which were their countries from the start.
                                                                                                          (Also about to start drinking soon!)

                                                                                                          edit actually 6 as SP mentioned a second entry.
                                                                                                          I'll take any entry left.
                                                                                                          Funking Norway 50/1 obvs
                                                                                                          People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                                          Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                                                                          https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            Was that GB just now?

                                                                                                            Actually not tres bad.
                                                                                                            I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                                              Put me in quick so I can lose a few bob

                                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                                Australia was a masterpiece
                                                                                                                Uk a lot stronger than the last 10 years
                                                                                                                Sweden best so far, Ukraine just a bit behind them

                                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                                  OK,
                                                                                                                  7 players. balfejohn, DP, Lazare, RD4, SP2, degag, Hitch.

                                                                                                                  randomorgying now.

                                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                                    So shit. Who am I on here?
                                                                                                                    I'm real money on the obvious meme songs but have a feeling about Greece.
                                                                                                                    Not family birthdays BTW. Spent eurovision /Cup final day in bouncey castles and face painting with 6 Yr olds
                                                                                                                    People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                                                    Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                                                                                    https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                                      Ukraine 1.34 now, crazy!

                                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                                        Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                                                                                                                        OK,
                                                                                                                        7 players. balfejohn, DP, Lazare, RD4, SP2, degag, Hitch.

                                                                                                                        randomorgying now.
                                                                                                                        Apeing into whomever is left after assignment for Mrs dp as well
                                                                                                                        People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                                                        Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
                                                                                                                        https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21

                                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                                          Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
                                                                                                                          OK,
                                                                                                                          7 players. balfejohn, DP, Lazare, RD4, SP2, degag, Hitch.

                                                                                                                          randomorgying now.
                                                                                                                          Best news I've heard in months
                                                                                                                          I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                                                                          Comment

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