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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View Postits 2022. Kayroos argument and Lazars outrage belong in the past. There is demand from parents for religion in the schools. Like business you follow the demand. Kids being left out or doing something else whilst the others do communion stuff is ok whats the problem? Really ? As you argue religion teachings belong outside the school similarly teaching your child why you dont want them taught religion is your job. If they feel excluded thats on YOU. If they want religion and you are telling them its fairytale. The exclusion is on YOU. the Church in 2022 in Ireland (fairytale or not) is a LOT different than even 10 years ago. There are also major cultural changes happening these days and being taken on board.
Ive read nothing from any posts that doesnt expose your personal bias/beliefs over the majority as the argument.
Took my kid for confession. He sat on a chair in the open with a decent person chatting to him about god etc . Big difference than the old dark box with a red light on it that we had. Parents are more savvy these days . The paedos need to look for a different job.
As for my outrage, I'm flabbergasted anyone can think of 796 toddler bodies in a sewer in Tuam, the 'good' ones stolen and sold and post today about how quaint and lovely the church is.
All kids are atheist btw, until a parent forces it onto them.
I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
is that Hagia Sofia HJ?
Here's the Hagia Sofia, which has an amazing (and still ongoing history).
It was originally a church, but when the Muslims conquered Constantinople they turned it into a mosque. On the founding of the secular Turkish state, it was turned into a museum, so all religions could enjoy it, but a few years ago Erdogen bowed to religious pressure and reconverted it into a mosque, and many of the Christian murals are covered over.
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Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
You are extracting the specific to the general. I am not arguing that the State should not fund things I disagree with. As a general principle that is completely unstateable. You may have noticed that I do not suggest for a moment that religious people should not be allowed to educate their children in their preferred approach. I've said that insofar as the religious instruction of their children is concerned that is a matter for their church/flock/whatever. I am happy for them to set up Sunday schools, have their kids attend and learn all about their religion and its meaning. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
What I am not in favour of is giving specific religious instruction in schools. When a child has to sit at the back of the class away from everyone else while they do their communion lessons. Or sit in another class while the rest of the class goes off to learn about confession in the local church. When that child is made to feel different, and strange, and wrong just because they don't have the same faith as the default religious order. Schools are no place for that. It creates a peer pressure to join in. It is a form of subtle and coercive indoctrination. My friends are all doing it so I want to do it. How is that giving people choice? It is forcing a choice on everyone and saying "if you don't like it, then sit outside". The choice should not be to remove oneself, the choice should be to include oneself. That is best achieved by letting churches impart their religious teachings outside the classroom. Religion is for the pulpit and the temple, schools are for actual education.
What is the argument for leaving things the way they are?
Also on the bolded bit, of course you are by saying they can’t do it in State funded schools. What if their preferred approach is in school?
The argument for leaving things as they are is that they work well for large amounts of people who want to see it continue.
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
We now live in a very diverse society, Keith's argument couldn't be more current. Yours is the archaic one.
As for my outrage, I'm flabbergasted anyone can think of 796 toddler bodies in a sewer in Tuam, the 'good' ones stolen and sold and post today about how quaint and lovely the church is.
All kids are atheist btw, until a parent forces it onto them.
You also like to express disdain at footie and the Dubs etc. Rightly so maybe.
To me you are just like the footie fans here . Take Greenwood , he is banned for sexual bullying of his girlfriend. Footies fans say , typical mamc scum. However its nothing to do with Mamchester .
Similarly the atrocities of the individuals in the Church have zero to do with the majority of decent people who call themselves Catholic. There is nothing in the religion to support what happened those poor innocents . Its humans being cunts .
Anyhoo i dont want to defend a creed im not particularly devout im merely pointing out the other side of the argument
I see you didnt get my point on how the church has changed . The Tuam atrocities would not happen today.
Happy friday .
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Baldies rejoice! (of whom there a few on here).
Sending some cash GAB's way in recognition of past sexual harassment in this regard."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View Post
Hmm tenuous linkage there
You also like to express disdain at footie and the Dubs etc. Rightly so maybe.
To me you are just like the footie fans here . Take Greenwood , he is banned for sexual bullying of his girlfriend. Footies fans say , typical mamc scum. However its nothing to do with Mamchester .
Similarly the atrocities of the individuals in the Church have zero to do with the majority of decent people who call themselves Catholic. There is nothing in the religion to support what happened those poor innocents . Its humans being cunts .
Anyhoo i dont want to defend a creed im not particularly devout im merely pointing out the other side of the argument
I see you didnt get my point on how the church has changed . The Tuam atrocities would not happen today.
Happy friday .
Tuam is the example I use for most effect, but there are countless examples of their insidiousness right up to very very recent times.
Their subtle and simple message has never changed though, and it's a dangerous one. 'Believe in what we're telling you or you're damned'. They sugar it up in cosy language but that's the message.
How anyone would have an appetite for that entering their imppresionable child's mind is beyond me.
I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
We now live in a very diverse society, Keith's argument couldn't be more current. Yours is the archaic one.
As for my outrage, I'm flabbergasted anyone can think of 796 toddler bodies in a sewer in Tuam, the 'good' ones stolen and sold and post today about how quaint and lovely the church is.
All kids are atheist btw, until a parent forces it onto them.
We live in a diverse society, not necessarily a secular one, so why not allow the choice.
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostCaption Competition: describe the look on HJ's face in the above^^People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21
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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View PostThats not the message . Ya have me defending it agsin.
On your deathbed a priest/god will forgive you. Win/win. In fact thats the flaw .
You are not damned for being a good person. You are not called an infidel . Cheery picking there.
On his deathbed, Voltaire, the great French philosopher. In the opposite corner, a priest.
"Do you renounce the Devil all his works?"
"Now, Sir, is not the time to be making enemies."
"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostHow anyone would have an appetite for that entering their imppresionable child's mind is beyond me.
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Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post
We should ensure no Russians run schools, or Senior Councils (given the shooting a few weeks ago) either. No one in their right mind no matter how dogmatic would not find the Tuam scandal anything other than horrendous, but it’s a moot point in this argument.
We live in a diverse society, not necessarily a secular one, so why not allow the choice.
People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
https://revolut.com/referral/jamesb8!G10D21
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One of the lads I was out with last night has acquired a Ukrainian lady friend. As a token of her esteem, she has given him one of these 'fuck you Russian warship!' stamps, which are apparently massive collector's items. Pretty funky.
20220512_221354-d.jpg"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post
My entire experience of it was universally positive, I have nothing but fond memories of it and wish to continue that if I had a family. It’s really as simple as that. I’m aware others may be different, and for a variety of reasons did not have a positive experience from the minor to the major. I could say the same about a range of things, I wouldn’t suggest that we stop teaching/coaching GAA in schools because of Tom Humphrey etc. I can agree that the RC influence has been too strong in government in Ireland and that was overreach has caused many to fight back, but I don’t think replacing one intolerance for another is the right approach.
If you want to attend religious gatherings now, and raise any children you may have to regularly attend and go through all the rites, then that is absolutely your prerogative as a believer in there being a divine being that is accurately reflected in catholic church teachings, but that doesn't mean that kids of other and no religions, many of whom have little choice in what school they attend, should have to lose education time or feel excluded from classes or activities. There often isn't an alternative. Thankfully I have an alternative for my little louts, but in a brief period when I considered the logistics of moving back to Sligo, I noted with some shock, but not much unfortunately, that there is only one multi denominational school in the whole county. For other kid related reasons, we aren't moving west, and while it wouldn't have been a deal breaker, it would have irritated me.
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Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
I've largely stayed out of this but one of the core points Kayroo was making is that largely there isn't one for many parents/students.
But whats the problem? Even in the schools you are not forced to do anything ? Your kids are not sent to Coventry . Redic assertion really and if they feel that way , tackle it .
Up until 2 years ago none of my kids were baptized. The eldest (the former atheist
*seem to have lost a lot of the message text. Meh.Last edited by Solksjaer!; 13-05-22, 18:39.
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Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post
Again, this is all based on not having enough schools to cater for it, none of what you said is intrinsically bad, and could be solved for sending said children to non-faith schools.
Also on the bolded bit, of course you are by saying they can’t do it in State funded schools. What if their preferred approach is in school?
The argument for leaving things as they are is that they work well for large amounts of people who want to see it continue.
Right now we don't even do opt-out properly. It just isn't working, which is likely a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights, the Irish Constitution and even Irish domestic law in some respects. Here is a submission from a group of teachers, parents and academics who wanted to see opt-out work. Because right now it doesn't. In some school environments they don't have the resources to supervise opt-out children so they have to stay in class while the religious teaching goes on, expressly against the wishes of their parents. In some schools the opt-out period is either colouring or heads on desks because the schools felt it would be unfair to disadvantage the religious children by allowing the opt-out kids to do homework or study other subjects - thus giving them an advantage.
Religion runs right through the whole school curriculum. As others have recounted it seeps most obviously into sexual education where children are given a warped message that adheres to religious doctrine and not to best educational practice. Removing it from schools, both in patronage and particularly from the classroom, is to free educators to actually educate. This is leaving aside things like how schools could (until recently) refuse to hire LGBTQI+ teachers solely on the basis of their sexuality. This was referenced by Gary Gannon TD in the Dail only this week, referring to the continuing fear of an LGBTQI+ teacher making any reference to their lives that might give away their sexuality. Religion causes that fear.
Education is a responsibility of the State. Let the State pay for it, run it and be answerable to the electorate for it. Religion is the responsibility of the religions. Let them pay for it, run it and be answerable to their god or gods for it. The two simply should not be intertwined.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Kayroothe schools felt it would be unfair to disadvantage the religious children by allowing the opt-out kids to do homework or study other subjects - thus giving them an advantage.
Highlights the absolute waste of quality time and educational opportunities taken up by it.
I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Mellor View PostSomething I’ve notice before it that religion is clearly a subject that gets right up your nose. To the extent that you actually seem to make much less fundamentally sound arguments than you usually would.
Originally posted by Mellor View PostThe analogy is basically: a GAA school could dictate the sports program, to the same extent that a church school could decide to teach religion.
The fact religion is fantasy is no way makes that analogy fall apart. No part of that analogy involves scientifically validity.
Albeit I accept the GAA probably do say that missing training or breaking a drinks ban can lead to eternal damnation and torment.
Originally posted by Mellor View PostYou and I, and many posters here believe it’s not true. As I said I’d be fine sending kids to a secular school. I’d encourage it in fact (well if I was going to have kids).
But I stop short of dictating to others what their beliefs should be. I think that sort of arrogant.
Originally posted by Mellor View PostFunded by the state? Your point, that I questioned, was all schools not just state schools. So not really relevant. I agree re: state funds.
But if, say, 90% of the population wanted it in schools. That would quite clearly and democratically support it in schools. Incredibly wrong to suggest it doesn’t.
You didn’t say it cannot be taught. But you did suggest how it could be taught. Telling people that they should not have the right to teach their kids religion via private schools is absolutely dictating how people should live.
I’m curious what you think gives you the right to make that call?
Originally posted by Mellor View PostAgain, public funding shifting in. Not relevant to the point I made.
Norms exist. Using the above logic, teaching subjects in English “others” those whose household primary language is not English. But there’s a really sensible reason to do so, just like Irish language schools have validity.
Many people are not fans of sports, in their view doing sports “others” children who do not play sports. The list of ways people can be different is endless. Can you really cater to everyone?
So the only options are no schools or all-schools? That’s quite the false dichotomy. Both are awful, either you force those who want it or prevent those who who do.
Crazy thought, maybe forcing all-people to follow any one persons beliefs is what is wrong.
But again focusing on the state-funded. The original analogy was about hypothetical GAA/Church owned and operated schools, not state school. And you clearly said it has no place in ANY school - which was what I called out. Your really distancing yourself from that clanger. So much so that I suspect you know it’s wrong and a pretty hard spot to defend.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
How utterly twisted this is.
Highlights the absolute waste of quality time and educational opportunities taken up by it.
Your religon and education of same is not the Church's responsibility. Its yours.(if you so wish) The Church facillitates .
Where you choose to have it taught is up to you. The DEMAND is for schools. i talk to a lot of parents who dont want their kids christened etc and not 1 has engaged in the hysterical cries of mal treatment of their child. Its actually NEVER been better . I award this debate to Joe .
One final point . Educational opportunities are in HUGE aboundance . The lockdown proved that in reality Schools themselves need to embrace technology more and more and MOOTing this whole debate.
all this in the Month of Mary.
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Sorry I missed one part of your post Mellor - the use of anathema was a pun. It's correct in context (promotion of falsehoods is something that true education should deeply dislike, albeit the personification of education probably makes it a clunky phrasing) and it is also a pun given the term also means someone who is excommunicated.
You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Britney Spears? I mean, I liked her early work. And Toxic is a certified banger. Is there something else going on I should be aware of? Is it that guardianship thing she's been involved in you mean?You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostIt's an odd element of this topic that whenever Laz or I argue about it, we become part of the argument. The issues I am arguing are either arguable or not. How I feel about religion has no bearing on that.
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There's a film on on TG4 at 21:25 called Five Card Stud:
After a cardsharp is caught cheating, he is taken out and lynched by the drunkards he was playing against. Soon afterwards, the men who were in the lynch mob start being murdered, one after another; all by hanging. Who will be killed next and who is responsible? Is it one of the original party seeking to cover their accursed deed, or perhaps the mysterious Rev Jonathan Rudd, who has recently arrived in town?
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostBritney Spears? I mean, I liked her early work. And Toxic is a certified banger. Is there something else going on I should be aware of? Is it that guardianship thing she's been involved in you mean?Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostI see that Britney's father may not have been the control freak he was made out to be, but rather someone who was genuinely looking out for his extremely troubled daughter.
That's right - I'm calling out today Tuesday 10th of May as IPB Britney Discussion Day.Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by hotspur View Post
You can't be talked to on the topic of religion. I'm not sure why people are trying.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by ComradeCollie View Post
Ah I was only hoping to change the debate to something more trivial. Though generally don't think she's been any more nuts than the likes of Johnny Depp.
I checked out her insta there after you mentioned it and... boy that's a rabbit hole.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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On your broader point Collie I will drop it (even in the teeth of what I expect will be a multi-quote masterpiece from Mellor). I know people either feel strongly and are unlikely to change their views (I admit I likely fall into that camp also) or they don't care. I don't wish to be the noise that blocks out the signal in here. I won't engage on the topic further in deference to you!You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
Bit harsh on Britney surely? I am not sure anything she has done is really comparable to some of the things he is accused of having done.
I checked out her insta there after you mentioned it and... boy that's a rabbit hole.
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostOn your broader point Collie I will drop it (even in the teeth of what I expect will be a multi-quote masterpiece from Mellor). I know people either feel strongly and are unlikely to change their views (I admit I likely fall into that camp also) or they don't care. I don't wish to be the noise that blocks out the signal in here. I won't engage on the topic further in deference to you!
BTW there is no signal here to be interrupted. Engage away!Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostOn your broader point Collie I will drop it (even in the teeth of what I expect will be a multi-quote masterpiece from Mellor). I know people either feel strongly and are unlikely to change their views (I admit I likely fall into that camp also) or they don't care. I don't wish to be the noise that blocks out the signal in here. I won't engage on the topic further in deference to you!
Doubly so when arguing it with people you like.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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It is kind of funny how different peoples experience of school even in the same country is. It was only recently that I mentioned to a friend that my secondary school had 9 classes in each year, and they thought I was bulshitting. My younger brother was over last month and had confirmed the same. Found a paper on the school from a few years ago that confirms more than 1000 students in the 80s too https://www.gov.ie/en/school-report/5fo9nk-/# One thing that is rarely mentioned is that it was the only school in the area that was wheelchair accessible, so all the local 'wheelies' as we would call them went there. Was a totally useless place for getting grades, though think the experience was far better overall than the other options.Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
Why is this being personalised to me? If my position is wrong or there is a good argument for mandating catholic religious instruction being part of the classroom experience in 90% of Irish schools (effectively monopolising rural education in particular) then let's hear it.
You’ll notice that I haven’t advocated for beliefs or changing your mind etc. simply that if I have children that they may follow/be allowed to follow in the same footsteps as to my own school experience which was universally positive.
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Getting two bathrooms put in all week, quite the amount of banging and dust as to be expected. Should be all done today (although I can see Mrs D3 putting on her 'not quite what I pictured' face), thank fuck, as part 1 of the 'renovate the house from 1972 to 2022' project. Next guy arrives Monday to reconfigure the downstairs layout.
Anyway, so far so boring. There is one guy doing the main bathroom and three guys doing the ensuite. Let's call the one guy Alex, for that is his name. He is an absolute dynamo. Sitting outside in his van from about 7 each morning, even though he says he'll start at 8. Just goes solid through the day. Refuses all offers of tea, coffee, biscuits etc while the three ensuite lads are having a disco party with multiple breaks all day. Offered him a beer last night: "no thank you, I do not drink alcohol." Has about three cigarettes a day and haven't seen him eat.
I'm in awe of this guy. Says he constructs one bathroom a week, works 6/7 days. Give me a hundred of him and you could do anything!"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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All sorts of rumours now swirling about Putin's health, both physical and psychological. The head of Ukrainian military intelligence gave them further oxygen yesterday.
Those crazy speeches before the war started should have been plenty to confirm anyone's judgement that he is indeed Mad Vlad. And he really looks ill, puffy face, tremors, gripping tables for support. And the whole weird physical distancing thing.
It would obviously be excellent news if he'd just keel over but who would be next in line is a very murky topic..."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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So, IPB Eurovision 2022 Sweep - Lets Rise like a Phoenix with the mudafucka beat.
25 countries participating, going to strike out the fav - Ukraine. Leaves 24 (solid at maths me).
Need 8 players @ €25. Honour based system, no escrow, so only known good eggs need apply.
You will get 3 countries each in a random draw (moderate seeding to prevent anyone getting three 100/1 shots) overseen by me.
Complicated Scoring system - your two lowest scoring countries count, add them together and the lowest overall total scoops the whole pot.
Open to all but much more fun if you will be watching and drunkenly posting as it happens.
And remember - We've Got the World Tonight.
I'll be back about 12.30pm to check on names/numbers, if 8 names are in don't worry - keep adding your name for a second game.
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostIrisholdfolkboards.com question.
Have any of you gone for bowel screening? Wonderiing what's involved with one.
That stuff you drink the day before to flush you out is great craic.This too shall pass.
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I wonder what the in-running market will be like. Presumably the initial set of votes will as usual be based on the professional juries who won't all be on the 'poor lickle Ukraine' bandwagon.
So they will largely be scored on merit, which will probably see them not in first place for a long time. Only when the televotes come in will they walk it.
So perhaps there's a betting opportunity there for those of who missed the fancy prices. Or maybe the market is now fully aware of the new system.
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Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View PostSo, IPB Eurovision 2022 Sweep - Lets Rise like a Phoenix with the mudafucka beat.
25 countries participating, going to strike out the fav - Ukraine. Leaves 24 (solid at maths me).
Need 8 players @ €25. Honour based system, no escrow, so only known good eggs need apply.
You will get 3 countries each in a random draw (moderate seeding to prevent anyone getting three 100/1 shots) overseen by me.
Complicated Scoring system - your two lowest scoring countries count, add them together and the lowest overall total scoops the whole pot.
Open to all but much more fun if you will be watching and drunkenly posting as it happens.
And remember - We've Got the World Tonight.
I'll be back about 12.30pm to check on names/numbers, if 8 names are in don't worry - keep adding your name for a second game.
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostGetting two bathrooms put in all week, quite the amount of banging and dust as to be expected. Should be all done today (although I can see Mrs D3 putting on her 'not quite what I pictured' face), thank fuck, as part 1 of the 'renovate the house from 1972 to 2022' project. Next guy arrives Monday to reconfigure the downstairs layout.
Anyway, so far so boring. There is one guy doing the main bathroom and three guys doing the ensuite. Let's call the one guy Alex, for that is his name. He is an absolute dynamo. Sitting outside in his van from about 7 each morning, even though he says he'll start at 8. Just goes solid through the day. Refuses all offers of tea, coffee, biscuits etc while the three ensuite lads are having a disco party with multiple breaks all day. Offered him a beer last night: "no thank you, I do not drink alcohol." Has about three cigarettes a day and haven't seen him eat.
I'm in awe of this guy. Says he constructs one bathroom a week, works 6/7 days. Give me a hundred of him and you could do anything!
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Originally posted by oleras View PostMy 100 bet will return 600 when Ukraine win tonight...i have the option to cash out for 490...no one ever went broke making a profit and all that but where is the sweat in that !!..dont know why im asking you degenerates....but, should i cash out ?
NVM, 1.42 on betfair. That fucking nuts. Lol the Brits are second favs, who the fuck votes for them.Last edited by Dice75; 14-05-22, 10:18.
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