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    It’s all those Ukrainians who were using crypto since war started because (insert reasons here) that I feel sorry for

    guess we can add inflation hedge to the list of things Bitcoin et Al were supposed to be useful for that it has failed utterly to fulfil

    such a waste of resources and peoples time- reading the pro crypto threads on boards and Reddit today for a laugh but the delusion is just depressing
    Will you ever fuck off with that shite... you are easily one of the worst posters on here for this-Pokerhand

    Comment


      From a Spurs forum:

      I’m a teacher in a North London school. I’m Spurs, obviously. Another teacher is a gooner. The back and forth between us in the lead up to the game this week has been nothing short of unprofessional. I’ve trained my class to shout “Go back to Woolwich“ whenever they see him. He’s had kids delivering (sealed) notes to me with all sorts of inappropriate, offensive language about Spurs. I changed the R.E. lesson I had taught about Judas to be about Sol instead and sent him the PowerPoint. Took me about an hour and nobody saw it apart from him.

      We‘re primary school teachers by the way. I’m in my 40s. He’s in his 50s. This game turns otherwise reasonable and responsible adults into childish twats who probably shouldn’t be allowed to look after kids.

      I can’t show my face tomorrow if we do anything other than win.

      Comment


        When they look back at us from the future the bitcoin gobshites will make the tulip mania buyers look like geniuses, at least we still have tulips and they are somewhat useful.
        Turning millions into thousands

        Comment


          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
          Welcome from the shadows. I think you rushed that reply. As it actually makes little sense.
          Strewel wasn't comparing GAA to religion, that would be nonsensical obviously. The relevant part was "ownership of the school". I questioned it as I think it's actually counter-supportive.

          A GAA owned and operate school is entirely within their rights to dictate the PE program, imo. As would an IRFU or whatever run school.
          A Church owned and run school should be entitled to do the same. As that lone Jewish school in Dublin is entitled to teach Hebrew studies. And people should be entitled to defer their children's RE to those schools, or not to.

          I'd certainly be "no thanks, it's a waste of time" group. But despite by own opposition to religion and creationism, I don't agree that it's right to say it has no place in any educational environment. You can't really complain that religion is an attempt to "control other people's lives" - but in the same breath try to dictate how people should they follow their beliefs.

          I fully get where you are coming from with saying it has no place in publicly funded schools. I don't disagree. I'd be perfectly ok is every state funded school was secular, with religion as an optional add on. But are we not dictating to the masses? I wouldn't be confident that the nation shares your view. I mean, 35% were against removing Blasphemy as a criminal offence from the constitution.
          There's a lot to unpack there. The sporting organisation analogy metaphor breaks down for precisely the reason I gave in my previous post. Sport is real. It is beneficial and it is real. Religion is nonsense. It is based on things that are not true. It is anathema to an educational environment to promote any religion, not just christianity, precisely because religion teaches us falsehoods and myths. Nobody makes the argument that children should be taught that the Greek or Roman pantheons are real because its self-evidently ludicrous. Even if a significant portion of people genuinely believed it was real we still would not countenance having it taught in schools funded by the state.

          Nobody is saying that people cannot teach it to their children. Nobody is arguing that it cannot be taught in private settings funded by the parents or by their church or coven or synagogue etc. To suggest that removing it from schools is somehow dictating how people should live is nonsensical. Refusing to publicly fund something is not the same as forcing people to opt-out of it in-class. Only one of those acts forcibly inserts a supposedly dominant religious ethos into the lives of almost all children and identifies it as "the norm" from which some children have to remove themselves. It others those of different faiths and of none. It is ludicrous.

          Let me frame this for you in a different way. If the default position was that religious education took place only at home and through the religions themselves would it be so self-evidently acceptable to change the curriculum so that Catholicism was taught in almost all schools and that the State would have to fund those classes? Even where it included the removal of children from school for periods to attend Church in preparation for Communion and Confirmation? No secular state would build an education system with a preferred religion like that because it would be so patently wrong. We only tolerate it because it has always been this way. Which is not a good reason.
          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

          Comment


            Originally posted by hotspur View Post
            From a Spurs forum:
            That's just beyond pathetic and sad tbh.

            Comment


              Tokyo vice épisode 9, the season finale should be out shortly, and season 2 also confirmed.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                It has no place in publicly funded schools because while sport and exercise is demonstrably good for you, religion is a bunch of fairy stories used by people who want to control other people's lives.

                Now, if you want to tell those fairy stories to your own children at home or you want them to attend an out-of-school class to learn about their fairy stories from your preferred druid/shaman/priest then you go right ahead. But it has no place in an educational environment. The study of religion as a social construct is already dealt with in classics or history classes . Zeus and the Christian god should be treated precisely the same - stories made up by bronze and iron age farmers to make sense of an otherwise incomprehensible world.
                That whole argument is predicated on your strongly held belief that no good comes from it. I know plenty of people who have similar views around Sport who think it ruins childrens lives, with the race to become competitive and “winners” is counterproductive. Everyone gets a medal etc. I disagree with that.

                I also disagree with your view and think it can and does have a strong positive influence on society, and feel parents should have the option. There are plenty of priests and nuns etc. who are more than positive role models for people, despite the few who did untold damage. We wouldn’t be suggesting veganism if a few bad butchers wen’t rogue. I also think there should be ample proliferation of non-affiliated or mixed denomination schools so that those who have no interest to be involved in it don’t need to be, which isn’t the case now.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                  There's a lot to unpack there. The sporting organisation analogy metaphor breaks down for precisely the reason I gave in my previous post. Sport is real. It is beneficial and it is real. Religion is nonsense. It is based on things that are not true. It is anathema to an educational environment to promote any religion, not just christianity, precisely because religion teaches us falsehoods and myths. Nobody makes the argument that children should be taught that the Greek or Roman pantheons are real because its self-evidently ludicrous. Even if a significant portion of people genuinely believed it was real we still would not countenance having it taught in schools funded by the state.

                  Nobody is saying that people cannot teach it to their children. Nobody is arguing that it cannot be taught in private settings funded by the parents or by their church or coven or synagogue etc. To suggest that removing it from schools is somehow dictating how people should live is nonsensical. Refusing to publicly fund something is not the same as forcing people to opt-out of it in-class. Only one of those acts forcibly inserts a supposedly dominant religious ethos into the lives of almost all children and identifies it as "the norm" from which some children have to remove themselves. It others those of different faiths and of none. It is ludicrous.

                  Let me frame this for you in a different way. If the default position was that religious education took place only at home and through the religions themselves would it be so self-evidently acceptable to change the curriculum so that Catholicism was taught in almost all schools and that the State would have to fund those classes? Even where it included the removal of children from school for periods to attend Church in preparation for Communion and Confirmation? No secular state would build an education system with a preferred religion like that because it would be so patently wrong. We only tolerate it because it has always been this way. Which is not a good reason.
                  You’re again only basing this on your opinion that Religion is nonsense, whereas others have different views. You also say Sport is different because its beneficial and real. There are multiple examples of the positive things that come from spirituality and religion, so to suggest that its universally useless is not a fair comparison. There are no doubt negative things associated with it too, I am not naive but I think some of those are driven from socio-economic reasons more than religious ones truly I.e. the troubles in the North.

                  On your reframing question, that has happened with the building of Jewish and Muslim schools in what were historically Christian countries.

                  Comment


                    You can't say that people don't get something from religion, they definitely do. For the Blue zones all but five of the 263 centenarians they interviewed belonged to some faith-based community. Research shows that attending faith-based services four times per month will add 4-14 years of life expectancy. That doesn't mean there are not better alternatives, most things have some sort of positive along with negativity. Belonging and meaning are important, give me some of that sweet ikagai. For some people that is religion and they often aren't the ones that will find meaning elsewhere. People have all sorts of lives and backgrounds, as well as cognitive ability, proclivities and so on. You may not be able to say people don't get something from religion but I'd still say it's a good idea to try and create a world where people don't need it.
                    Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 12-05-22, 20:13.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post

                      That whole argument is predicated on your strongly held belief that no good comes from it. I know plenty of people who have similar views around Sport who think it ruins childrens lives, with the race to become competitive and “winners” is counterproductive. Everyone gets a medal etc. I disagree with that.

                      I also disagree with your view and think it can and does have a strong positive influence on society, and feel parents should have the option. There are plenty of priests and nuns etc. who are more than positive role models for people, despite the few who did untold damage. We wouldn’t be suggesting veganism if a few bad butchers wen’t rogue. I also think there should be ample proliferation of non-affiliated or mixed denomination schools so that those who have no interest to be involved in it don’t need to be, which isn’t the case now.
                      None of this is an argument to have religious instruction in schools. Literally not a single word. Take it out of every school and leave it to the churches to run their own classes and parents to raise their children in the faith of their choice. I have not heard a single good argument to leave religion in schools.

                      My view is not based on the idea that no good comes from religion. As a proposition I think it's probably true that some good does come from religion. My view is based on the view that religion is false. A useful falsehood is still a falsehood. Teaching children to believe in falsehoods is precisely opposite to the goal of education. Hence religion should not be taught in schools. Your answer to have more schools so people don't have to go to a religious school has it backwards. Almost all schools are religious. In an urban environment you might have a choice but most towns in Ireland have one primary, one secondary and both Catholic. The answer to the constant "othering" of children of different or no faiths is to remove religious instruction and to place it back in the hands of the religions directly.

                      What is your objection to having religions teach religion rather than the State subsidising religious education en masse?
                      You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                      World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                      Comment


                        Oh ffs who started a religion debate?
                        can we talk a about the Wagatha Christie trial instead?
                        Will you ever fuck off with that shite... you are easily one of the worst posters on here for this-Pokerhand

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                          You can't say that people don't get something from religion, they definitely do. For the Blue zones all but five of the 263 centenarians they interviewed belonged to some faith-based community. Research shows that attending faith-based services four times per month will add 4-14 years of life expectancy. That doesn't mean there are not better alternatives, most things have some sort of positive along with negativity. Belonging and meaning are important, give me some of that sweet ikagai. For some people that is religion and they often aren't the ones that will find meaning elsewhere. People have all sorts of lives and backgrounds, as well as cognitive ability, proclivities and so on. You may not be able to say people don't get something from religion but I'd still say it's a good idea to try and create a world where people don't need it.
                          I never said people don't get anything from religion. I said it is not true. Which it isn't.

                          To use a Sam Harris example, if someone told you that they found deep and profound meaning when they realised that they were destined to marry Angelina Jolie you would likely point out that was never going to happen. Despite this they say they are a better and happier person for having made this realisation. Their life feels fuller and more complete. Roses smell sweeter, food tastes better. They now give more to charity. Now, while would think such a person is delusional I have zero issue with them believing that and organising their lives in accordance with that belief. But the moment they insist I have to live my life by those rules, or insist they should be entitled to have their belief taught in schools at the taxpayer's expense, or that they don't have to provide services to people called Brad because it's against their personal faith, well then we have a problem.

                          I am not making an argument that religion is useless or that people don't get anything from it or that it has no utility. I am arguing that it has no place in a system of public education and that religions should be responsible for educating their own flocks. What is so controversial about that? Why is asking the religious to teach religion to their own adherents some sort of difficult proposition?
                          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by MysteryGuest View Post
                            Oh ffs who started a religion debate?
                            can we talk a about the Wagatha Christie trial instead?
                            Ecclesiasticus 27:16-21

                            If you repeat secrets that have been told to you, you are destroying the confidence others have in you, and you will never have a close friend. Respect your friends, and keep faith with them.
                            Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                            Comment


                              Must be benefits to sending your kids to a catholic school. Definitely a lot of transferable skills for the corporate world to having to adapt to nodding along to a load of cobblers while not believing a word
                              Will you ever fuck off with that shite... you are easily one of the worst posters on here for this-Pokerhand

                              Comment


                                There is also something to be said for opening up your children to spirituality at an early age. . As for home schooling on religion why not home school everything . Some parents can barely home school common decency. Kayroo dismissed a huge % of world culture as fairytale . I've no problem with it as its his point of view . Ive no great faith in the bible etc but i dont completely dismiss it as fairytale. I do believe that reality of our existence here is not completely understood . We know nothing in the scheme of things . Anyone who says otherwise is simply arrogant.


                                Also i heard people compare Messi to God. He's great yeah but he's no Messi.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by shrapnel View Post

                                  That's just beyond pathetic and sad tbh.
                                  It is crazy though how it turns grown adults into toddlers. Football fans are truly bizarre.
                                  I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                                    It is crazy though how it turns grown adults into toddlers. Football fans are truly bizarre.
                                    I thought it was tongue in cheek. I'd love to have this kind of banter but nobody i know would take the bait. Politics eg left and right extremists are much more bizarre . I think if you are being oppressed by any ideal its wrong.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post

                                      That whole argument is predicated on your strongly held belief that no good comes from it. I know plenty of people who have similar views around Sport who think it ruins childrens lives, with the race to become competitive and “winners” is counterproductive. Everyone gets a medal etc. I disagree with that.

                                      I also disagree with your view and think it can and does have a strong positive influence on society, and feel parents should have the option. There are plenty of priests and nuns etc. who are more than positive role models for people, despite the few who did untold damage. We wouldn’t be suggesting veganism if a few bad butchers wen’t rogue. I also think there should be ample proliferation of non-affiliated or mixed denomination schools so that those who have no interest to be involved in it don’t need to be, which isn’t the case now.
                                      It has a relatively benign influence on society now Joe, but for decades it had a terribly destructive, profoundly negative influence. Particularly for women.

                                      A time it should never be forgiven for regardless of the few Oscar Schindlers doing good work.

                                      I spent about four years of my early adolescence in terror because of the thoughts I was having around questioning it.

                                      Years of subtle school messaging instilled that terror.

                                      Given what that organisation has done, the trauma it has inflicted on generations before us it's, in my opinion, an absolute disgrace the prominence it has in the education of young impressionable children.



                                      I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                      Comment


                                        Anyone done the Florida Man thing. ?

                                        Put your birth day and month into google , then Florida man.

                                        Fun. Funnily enough i got this

                                        The man who drove his Ferrari into the Intracoastal in Palm Beach in late December told police he did it because, "Jesus told me to..." according to a report from Palm Beach Police.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Solksjaer! View Post
                                          Anyone done the Florida Man thing. ?

                                          Put your birth day and month into google , then Florida man.

                                          Fun. Funnily enough i got this
                                          I got a fully naked Florida man shat on his neighbour's glass table.

                                          In his sixties too fair play to him
                                          I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                          Comment


                                            Turning millions into thousands

                                            Comment


                                              Oldie
                                              You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                                              This gallery has 1 photos.

                                              Comment


                                                What's Keith's position on Santa and the Tooth Fairy?
                                                Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                                                  I never said people don't get anything from religion. I said it is not true. Which it isn't.

                                                  To use a Sam Harris example, if someone told you that they found deep and profound meaning when they realised that they were destined to marry Angelina Jolie you would likely point out that was never going to happen. Despite this they say they are a better and happier person for having made this realisation. Their life feels fuller and more complete. Roses smell sweeter, food tastes better. They now give more to charity. Now, while would think such a person is delusional I have zero issue with them believing that and organising their lives in accordance with that belief. But the moment they insist I have to live my life by those rules, or insist they should be entitled to have their belief taught in schools at the taxpayer's expense, or that they don't have to provide services to people called Brad because it's against their personal faith, well then we have a problem.

                                                  I am not making an argument that religion is useless or that people don't get anything from it or that it has no utility. I am arguing that it has no place in a system of public education and that religions should be responsible for educating their own flocks. What is so controversial about that? Why is asking the religious to teach religion to their own adherents some sort of difficult proposition?
                                                  Tbh I didn't read any of the preceding posts, just assumed "so to suggest that its universally useless is not a fair comparison" was replying to something somebody said. I agree with what you said here.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Ex colleague of mine left his post in the states recently. On the way out the door, he blocked fox news, breitpart and a few other sites. Gave me a great chuckle when I found out. I did have to unblock everything afterwards.

                                                    Comment


                                                      Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                      Belonging and meaning are important, give me some of that sweet ikagai. For some people that is religion and they often aren't the ones that will find meaning elsewhere. People have all sorts of lives and backgrounds, as well as cognitive ability, proclivities and so on.
                                                      Talking about meaning and religion brings to mind Kierkegaard's 3 stages of existence - aesthetic, ethical, and religious. Meaning of the sort I think you're talking about which emerges from a commitment to something (others) beyond yourself is in his ethical stage. Talking responsibility and committing to something thereby experiencing meaning (even though you know it is ultimately without meaning). But his religious stage is a transcending of that, indeed it is about the transcendent.

                                                      I'm too tired to describe it, here is something readable.

                                                      Comment


                                                        Inspired by Hitch, I am cloncluding a fairly loose evening in the Aquarium. Will report.
                                                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                        Comment


                                                          Padraig P talking even more shite than me.
                                                          "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                          Comment


                                                            Originally posted by Lazare View Post
                                                            It has a relatively benign influence on society now Joe, but for decades it had a terribly destructive, profoundly negative influence. Particularly for women.
                                                            As Nietzsche said:
                                                            God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?
                                                            We still haven't fully faced up to what Nietzsche said there imo.

                                                            Comment


                                                              Headline live takeaways:
                                                              1. waiting for a seat is boring
                                                              2. Vera still on the go and a good chat had
                                                              "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                              Comment


                                                                Black kimgs slain by ye olde 67o.

                                                                Good night.
                                                                "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                Comment


                                                                  ...
                                                                  Last edited by Hitchhiker's Guide To...; 21-05-22, 22:26.
                                                                  "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    Originally posted by hotspur View Post

                                                                    As Nietzsche said:


                                                                    We still haven't fully faced up to what Nietzsche said there imo.
                                                                    I mentioned in that post being in terror in my young teenage years when the idea of God was dying for me. None of it made logical sense, I felt alone, everyone and everything around me was telling me I was wrong. 80s Ireland. I was in terror of being wrong. Not able to even mention it to anyone.

                                                                    Years of confusion not having anything logical to replace it with.

                                                                    Until at about 16 when I discovered Darwin.

                                                                    The mind blowing, complex, harmonic natural beauty of how we actually did come to exist is what's 'holiest and majestic of all'.

                                                                    God is dead.


                                                                    I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      What does that say about catholicism infecting the education system when I had to discover Darwin by myself on my own.
                                                                      I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        Originally posted by Lazare View Post
                                                                        What does that say about catholicism infecting the education system when I had to discover Darwin by myself on my own.
                                                                        You were a slow learner

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
                                                                          It has no place in publicly funded schools because while sport and exercise is demonstrably good for you, religion is a bunch of fairy stories used by people who want to control other people's lives.
                                                                          Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
                                                                          There's a lot to unpack there. The sporting organisation analogy metaphor breaks down for precisely the reason I gave in my previous post. Sport is real. It is beneficial and it is real. Religion is nonsense.
                                                                          Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
                                                                          I am not making an argument that religion is useless or that people don't get anything from it or that it has no utility
                                                                          I was replying to your second comment, when it implied it had no utility I.e. sport is demonstrably good for you and religion is not.

                                                                          Anyway, getting away from the pedantry of the above, my simple argument is that calling for an end to State funding things you disagree with is a selfish approach, religious people pay taxes too and should be allowed to educate their children in their preferred approach. You are calling for an outright ban on it, rather than giving people the option and showing an intolerance on anything religious because you personally don’t believe in it or take any use/utility from it.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            Originally posted by The Istanbul View Post

                                                                            You were a slow learner
                                                                            Ha, certainly true.

                                                                            I'd be curious to know if any of you guys left school with a good grasp of Natural Selection. Interested to hear the denomination of school.

                                                                            I would hazard a guess that nobody left primary school with a knowledge of it.

                                                                            That's where it should be taught I think, to kids bursting with wild imagination.

                                                                            I spoke to my then 6 year old about it and she was utterly fascinated.


                                                                            I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                                                                              What's Keith's position on Santa and the Tooth Fairy?
                                                                              If schools taught it as fact as part of a state funded curriculum I'm sure he'd be absolutely aghast at it.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                Originally posted by The Istanbul View Post

                                                                                You were a slow learner
                                                                                So was Darwin

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  The trial, sounds like she did what she was accused of, tried to dump the evidence and is claiming defamation

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Originally posted by 6starpool View Post

                                                                                    If schools taught it as fact as part of a state funded curriculum I'm sure he'd be absolutely aghast at it.
                                                                                    I remember my 1st day in Secondary School and Ms Dwyer the English teacher welcoming us and asking us to write an essay about the 1st time you realised Santa was FAKE. I loudly exclaimed. WHAT ,SANTA DOESNT EXIST ? She went white . She told me 5 years later when leaving school that it taught her a valuable lesson plus the Staff room had a great longstanding joke with her over it.

                                                                                    As for Darwin our RE teacher used to discuss it as a theory but I could sense he wasnt a complete devout Catholic . Odd that he was an RE teacher but a very likeable chap who liked to stir our brains a bit. Always said. Now think about that , THINK.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                      The trial, sounds like she did what she was accused of, tried to dump the evidence and is claiming defamation
                                                                                      Who dat?

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                                                                                        I mentioned in that post being in terror in my young teenage years when the idea of God was dying for me. None of it made logical sense, I felt alone, everyone and everything around me was telling me I was wrong. 80s Ireland. I was in terror of being wrong. Not able to even mention it to anyone.

                                                                                        Years of confusion not having anything logical to replace it with.

                                                                                        Until at about 16 when I discovered Darwin.

                                                                                        The mind blowing, complex, harmonic natural beauty of how we actually did come to exist is what's 'holiest and majestic of all'.

                                                                                        God is dead.

                                                                                        How can he be dead if he never lived .

                                                                                        I was married for 16 years before i discovered gravity.

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post
                                                                                          Anyway, getting away from the pedantry of the above, my simple argument is that calling for an end to State funding things you disagree with is a selfish approach, religious people pay taxes too and should be allowed to educate their children in their preferred approach. You are calling for an outright ban on it, rather than giving people the option and showing an intolerance on anything religious because you personally don’t believe in it or take any use/utility from it.
                                                                                          You are extracting the specific to the general. I am not arguing that the State should not fund things I disagree with. As a general principle that is completely unstateable. You may have noticed that I do not suggest for a moment that religious people should not be allowed to educate their children in their preferred approach. I've said that insofar as the religious instruction of their children is concerned that is a matter for their church/flock/whatever. I am happy for them to set up Sunday schools, have their kids attend and learn all about their religion and its meaning. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

                                                                                          What I am not in favour of is giving specific religious instruction in schools. When a child has to sit at the back of the class away from everyone else while they do their communion lessons. Or sit in another class while the rest of the class goes off to learn about confession in the local church. When that child is made to feel different, and strange, and wrong just because they don't have the same faith as the default religious order. Schools are no place for that. It creates a peer pressure to join in. It is a form of subtle and coercive indoctrination. My friends are all doing it so I want to do it. How is that giving people choice? It is forcing a choice on everyone and saying "if you don't like it, then sit outside". The choice should not be to remove oneself, the choice should be to include oneself. That is best achieved by letting churches impart their religious teachings outside the classroom. Religion is for the pulpit and the temple, schools are for actual education.

                                                                                          What is the argument for leaving things the way they are?
                                                                                          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            Originally posted by Lazare View Post

                                                                                            Ha, certainly true.

                                                                                            I'd be curious to know if any of you guys left school with a good grasp of Natural Selection. Interested to hear the denomination of school.
                                                                                            I'd kinda forgotten that my secondary school was multi-denominational. Like there was a religious studies class, but it was more an informative presentation of what the various main religions believed in. Don't think we ever had to go to a mass in the five years. Think there were 2 nuns and one priest (in a school with about 1500 students). I do remember Sr Theresa being very negative about condoms, though it was as more about their efficacy than what the church said.
                                                                                            Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                                                                                              You are extracting the specific to the general. I am not arguing that the State should not fund things I disagree with. As a general principle that is completely unstateable. You may have noticed that I do not suggest for a moment that religious people should not be allowed to educate their children in their preferred approach. I've said that insofar as the religious instruction of their children is concerned that is a matter for their church/flock/whatever. I am happy for them to set up Sunday schools, have their kids attend and learn all about their religion and its meaning. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

                                                                                              What I am not in favour of is giving specific religious instruction in schools. When a child has to sit at the back of the class away from everyone else while they do their communion lessons. Or sit in another class while the rest of the class goes off to learn about confession in the local church. When that child is made to feel different, and strange, and wrong just because they don't have the same faith as the default religious order. Schools are no place for that. It creates a peer pressure to join in. It is a form of subtle and coercive indoctrination. My friends are all doing it so I want to do it. How is that giving people choice? It is forcing a choice on everyone and saying "if you don't like it, then sit outside". The choice should not be to remove oneself, the choice should be to include oneself. That is best achieved by letting churches impart their religious teachings outside the classroom. Religion is for the pulpit and the temple, schools are for actual education.

                                                                                              What is the argument for leaving things the way they are?
                                                                                              In primary school my class all went to the religious pioneer pledge thing, had a small party, got food, drinks etc. I didn't believe in god, nor was I going to pledge to not drink as a child to some imaginary crap for a can of coke, so I was the only one to sit it out and wait around on my own for a couple hours. I could definitely see that affecting somebody negatively and people that didn't want to do it likely were off there doing it and getting an hour of religious indoctrination. Then there was the forced prayers, confessions and so on. Bullshit.

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                                                                                                its 2022. Kayroos argument and Lazars outrage belong in the past. There is demand from parents for religion in the schools. Like business you follow the demand. Kids being left out or doing something else whilst the others do communion stuff is ok whats the problem? Really ? As you argue religion teachings belong outside the school similarly teaching your child why you dont want them taught religion is your job. If they feel excluded thats on YOU. If they want religion and you are telling them its fairytale. The exclusion is on YOU. the Church in 2022 in Ireland (fairytale or not) is a LOT different than even 10 years ago. There are also major cultural changes happening these days and being taken on board.

                                                                                                Ive read nothing from any posts that doesnt expose your personal bias/beliefs over the majority as the argument.

                                                                                                Took my kid for confession. He sat on a chair in the open with a decent person chatting to him about god etc . Big difference than the old dark box with a red light on it that we had. Parents are more savvy these days . The paedos need to look for a different job.

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                                                                                                  Originally posted by Solksjaer! View Post

                                                                                                  Who dat?
                                                                                                  The Rooney/Vardy Case. Vardy's agent very unfortunately dropped her phone in the sea (claim is that it would have been full of messages to journalists with stories leaked by Vardy)

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                                                                                                    I'll tell you about exclusion. When i was an early teen a few guys i hung around with where starting to do stuff i didnt agree with. One day i got a knock at the door and one of them said. Come on we are going to do a gaff tonight. Eh NO YOU ARENT the fk. I slso threatened to 'rat' em out if they did. BOOM i was kicked to touch . Was glad actually but for a while i had to find others of a similar ilk to myself . Sports took care of that. However i did miss the craic from those other lads from our much younger times . I had to overcome this myself. So sorry if a kid has to sit out a fecking RE class.
                                                                                                    they'll survive.

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                                                                                                      Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post



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                                                                                                      It's like they are having a competition to see who can get away with saying the maddest shit
                                                                                                      People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                                      Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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                                                                                                        Somewhat relevant to the religion and school discourse. My neighbour is a primary school teacher and does the sex ed in the school (Catholic of course). It's 2022 but she still can't mention condoms and has to tread incredibly carefully on real sexual health facts vs church doctrine. Essentially all she can say "This is sex and how it works but don't do it guys". Any expansion beyond that could lead to dismissal and she's been warned from day 1. This is very dangerous IMO.

                                                                                                        I remember in the last few weeks of primary school, sure tis only yesterday. We had Accord (Catholic Marriage Counsellors) come in one evening for sex ed. Though we were told it was a talk about life and growing up. All the parents and teachers were in a different part of the school and all of the kids in 6th class were brought off to have 2 lady counsellors from Accord explain the workings of marriage and sex. It was literally a Pat Short/Dunbelievables sketch - "That carry-on on d'telly in Home and Away. Sure ye can't be doing that. That's lust, one of the 7 deadly sins. Be good Catholic boys and girls, don't let lust and d'divil get ya. The divil makes them programs for the d'telly to tempt you. You can't be going around kissing a different woman/man every week". Over 20 years ago and I remember one of the kids challenging them about condoms - "Sex is for procreation in marriage when you're in love, not for lust and recreation like on Home and Away." Thankfully most of the kids were aware that this was all wrong and laughed at it for the next few days.

                                                                                                        Jesus Christ, I'm cringing thinking back about it now. Thankfully in secondary school at some point in the junior cycle, we had a lecture HSE nurse who specialised in sexual health and education. It could already have been too late for some people at that point but that lady only spoke facts. I don't know how she managed to sneak by the school ethos given it was a CBS but there were no brothers/priests left at that stage.

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                                                                                                          What about religious education, as opposed to instruction?

                                                                                                          e.g. learning about all the various faiths and cultures that are out there. Certainly in my kids proddy-sorta schools, that's what goes on in the RE class. Was the case when I was a kid too. I can still relate the seven things all Sikh men must do.
                                                                                                          "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                                                            Originally posted by coillcam View Post
                                                                                                            "This is sex and how it works but don't do it guys".
                                                                                                            that's exactly what I told my daughter
                                                                                                            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                                                              Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
                                                                                                              There's a lot to unpack there. The sporting organisation analogy metaphor breaks down for precisely the reason I gave in my previous post. Sport is real. It is beneficial and it is real. Religion is nonsense.
                                                                                                              Something I’ve notice before it that religion is clearly a subject that gets right up your nose. To the extent that you actually seem to make much less fundamentally sound arguments than you usually would.

                                                                                                              The analogy is basically: a GAA school could dictate the sports program, to the same extent that a church school could decide to teach religion.
                                                                                                              The fact religion is fantasy is no way makes that analogy fall apart. No part of that analogy involves scientifically validity.

                                                                                                              It is based on things that are not true. It is anathema to an educational environment to promote any religion, not just christianity, precisely because religion teaches us falsehoods and myths. Nobody makes the argument that children should be taught that the Greek or Roman pantheons are real because its self-evidently ludicrous.
                                                                                                              You and I, and many posters here believe it’s not true. As I said I’d be fine sending kids to a secular school. I’d encourage it in fact (well if I was going to have kids).
                                                                                                              But I stop short of dictating to others what their beliefs should be. I think that sort of arrogant.

                                                                                                              Do you also think Santa Claus is anathema to educational environments? (misusing that word btw, usually unheard of, but see first point about the topic)

                                                                                                              Even if a significant portion of people genuinely believed it was real we still would not countenance having it taught in schools funded by the state.
                                                                                                              Funded by the state? Your point, that I questioned, was all schools not just state schools. So not really relevant. I agree re: state funds.

                                                                                                              But if, say, 90% of the population wanted it in schools. That would quite clearly and democratically support it in schools. Incredibly wrong to suggest it doesn’t.

                                                                                                              Nobody is saying that people cannot teach it to their children. Nobody is arguing that it cannot be taught in private settings funded by the parents or by their church or coven or synagogue etc. To suggest that removing it from schools is somehow dictating how people should live is nonsensical.
                                                                                                              You didn’t say it cannot be taught. But you did suggest how it could be taught. Telling people that they should not have the right to teach their kids religion via private schools is absolutely dictating how people should live.

                                                                                                              I’m curious what you think gives you the right to make that call?

                                                                                                              Refusing to publicly fund something is not the same as forcing people to opt-out of it in-class. Only one of those acts forcibly inserts a supposedly dominant religious ethos into the lives of almost all children and identifies it as "the norm" from which some children have to remove themselves. It others those of different faiths and of none. It is ludicrous.
                                                                                                              Again, public funding shifting in. Not relevant to the point I made.
                                                                                                              Norms exist. Using the above logic, teaching subjects in English “others” those whose household primary language is not English. But there’s a really sensible reason to do so, just like Irish language schools have validity.
                                                                                                              Many people are not fans of sports, in their view doing sports “others” children who do not play sports. The list of ways people can be different is endless. Can you really cater to everyone?

                                                                                                              Let me frame this for you in a different way. If the default position was that religious education took place only at home and through the religions themselves would it be so self-evidently acceptable to change the curriculum so that Catholicism was taught in almost all schools and that the State would have to fund those classes? Even where it included the removal of children from school for periods to attend Church in preparation for Communion and Confirmation?
                                                                                                              No secular state would build an education system with a preferred religion like that because it would be so patently wrong. We only tolerate it because it has always been this way. Which is not a good reason.
                                                                                                              So the only options are no schools or all-schools? That’s quite the false dichotomy. Both are awful, either you force those who want it or prevent those who who do.
                                                                                                              Crazy thought, maybe forcing all-people to follow any one persons beliefs is what is wrong.

                                                                                                              But again focusing on the state-funded. The original analogy was about hypothetical GAA/Church owned and operated schools, not state school. And you clearly said it has no place in ANY school - which was what I called out. Your really distancing yourself from that clanger. So much so that I suspect you know it’s wrong and a pretty hard spot to defend.

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                                                                                                                Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                                                What about religious education, as opposed to instruction?

                                                                                                                e.g. learning about all the various faiths and cultures that are out there. Certainly in my kids proddy-sorta schools, that's what goes on in the RE class. Was the case when I was a kid too. I can still relate the seven things all Sikh men must do.
                                                                                                                That's pretty much standard practice in multi denominational schools. Basically "these are some religions that some people believe in". That's different from "if you're not in this club you have to sit quietly or get out" type classes.

                                                                                                                Hopefully the census will see a further significant erosion in those declaring themselves religious at all, but catholic in particular, as in some parts of the country there is no choice other than the local catholic school, and this changing demographic will move things towards the default in schools being no religious instruction, with things like this done outside of normal hours or elsewhere.

                                                                                                                Some lads here are deciding that because some of us believe that religion shouldn't be taught in schools that this means that we want to ban it altogether and decide to miss the point entirely.

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                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Lazare View Post
                                                                                                                  I'd be curious to know if any of you guys left school with a good grasp of Natural Selection. Interested to hear the denomination of school.

                                                                                                                  I would hazard a guess that nobody left primary school with a knowledge of it.

                                                                                                                  That's where it should be taught I think, to kids bursting with wild imagination.

                                                                                                                  I spoke to my then 6 year old about it and she was utterly fascinated.
                                                                                                                  I covered it in secondary school. As part of science/biology. They could probably touch on Darwin’s Finches with kids. But to really get into the genetics and sub-cellularstuff is probably more secondary level.

                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                                                  What about religious education, as opposed to instruction?

                                                                                                                  e.g. learning about all the various faiths and cultures that are out there. Certainly in my kids proddy-sorta schools, that's what goes on in the RE class. Was the case when I was a kid too. I can still relate the seven things all Sikh men must do.
                                                                                                                  My secondary school was like that. We learned about other religions. All the flavours of nonsense. Often it was less about religions and more social studies. I think being completely oblivious to other peoples beliefs would be a knowledge gap.

                                                                                                                  edit:multi-denominational school as above. Opt-ing out was an option if parents didn’t want you doing it.
                                                                                                                  Last edited by Mellor; 13-05-22, 13:28.

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                                                                                                                    Originally posted by 6starpool View Post

                                                                                                                    That's pretty much standard practice in multi denominational schools. Basically "these are some religions that some people believe in". That's different from "if you're not in this club you have to sit quietly or get out" type classes.

                                                                                                                    Hopefully the census will see a further significant erosion in those declaring themselves religious at all, but catholic in particular, as in some parts of the country there is no choice other than the local catholic school, and this changing demographic will move things towards the default in schools being no religious instruction, with things like this done outside of normal hours or elsewhere.

                                                                                                                    Some lads here are deciding that because some of us believe that religion shouldn't be taught in schools that this means that we want to ban it altogether and decide to miss the point entirely.
                                                                                                                    RE in a multicultural school is quite fun.

                                                                                                                    It's more real for kids when they have actual friends from different faiths sitting beside them.
                                                                                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                                                                      I guess these RC ceremonies are such a prominent feature of Irish culture that the schools are happy to feed into them. My kids went to a RC patronage school. No way they were making the communion or confirmation. Teachers were great in managing their participation up to the point of not getting converted.

                                                                                                                      I expect it will fade away in the years to come as the OP on the subject alluded to. It's a legacy issue at the moment. The parents who go along for the ride, and don't darken the door of a church from one end of the year to the next, are the problem. Their laziness extends the lifespan of the religious nonsense.

                                                                                                                      No kid struggles with concept once informed it's a crock and why. The revelation is akin to the conformation that Santa isn't real. 99% are like ya that's what I suspected all along.
                                                                                                                      Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

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                                                                                                                        RE is all well and good but 45 minutes of each hour should be devoted to all the problems and issues caused by various religions over the years, with a healthy emphasis on how illogical and self-serving the logic they have employed has been.

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                                                                                                                          Do you get atheists\agnostics in other cultures and regions at the same level as we in the de-Christianizing West have?

                                                                                                                          Like, if you asked the population of India to tick a box saying what religion they are, I wonder how many would tick 'none' vs the ones who picked Hindu, Muslim, Jain, Sikh, Christian, Zoroastrian etc?
                                                                                                                          "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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