Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Wordle Gummidge

[Pat Mustard]

800/day is 40k gross, not 80k.
Entry level skilled trades would start on less, as they are not skilled starting out.

I didn't spout the 80k figure. V4V came out with that one.

[Micknail]

It doesn’t bother me.

So you are pretty much in line with Trump/ Boris supporters then.

[Raoul Duke III]

Yep. Politics is up there with soccer and religion as subjects you cannot have a rational conversation with people about. FFG, SFIRA, RuSSia as RD3 affectionately called it in his trolling of hitch.

Years of working in pubs means I just roll my eyes and ignore any talk about the above 3 subjects usually. Actually thinking now, the absolute shite you'd hear lads come out with while working behind the bar is god tier laughable.

I call Russia RuSSia because they are, objectively, fascists. It's not trolling in any way.

[Raoul Duke III]

So you are pretty much in line with Trump/ Boris supporters then.

This the point I was making about populists, like SF, Boris and Trump.

They have huge similarities, even if their claimed political ideology (lol) may be different.

[Raoul Duke III]

Their partners have great paying jobs

Tell us more...

[Micknail]

This the point I was making about populists, like SF, Boris and Trump.

They have huge similarities, even if their claimed political ideology (lol) may be different.

Mind boggles.
Relatively intelligent individuals just totally blanking out criminal behaviour from their elected officials.

[DeadParrot]

It doesn’t bother me.

[RichieM]

What are the substantial differences between FF and FG in terms of policy?

One might go into coalition with you while the other definitely won’t.

[Micknail]

It was a genuine attempt to see how a SF voter accounts for the parties illicit activity. I would have taken any answer really!

[balfejohn]

Tell us more...

Both partners won the Northern Banks lottery in the last 10 years
amounts unknown to be submitted before they start their March towards Dáil Éireann

[Degag]

Yep. Politics is up there with soccer and religion as subjects you cannot have a rational conversation with people about. FFG, SFIRA, RuSSia as RD3 affectionately called it in his trolling of hitch.

Years of working in pubs means I just roll my eyes and ignore any talk about the above 3 subjects usually. Actually thinking now, the absolute shite you'd hear lads come out with while working behind the bar is god tier laughable.

Tbf Hitch was extremely wrong (and verging on obnoxiously so) on the Russia situation so i don’t think any trolling was done really.

But very right on the pub stuff. They say that the two things a barman should never engage on is politics and religion.

And the only things on the tv should be sport and news

[LuckyLloyd]

It was a genuine attempt to see how a SF voter accounts for the parties illicit activity. I would have taken any answer really!

There’s no answer that would have satisfied you.

Much like I’m not holding my breath that any of you will be able to cogently explain the substantive policy differences between FF and FG.

The day SF take office all the IRA / criminality stuff disappears forever. We should all welcome that as a step forward in Irish political debate. Allows us to focus on things that matter.

[Raoul Duke III]

There’s no answer that would have satisfied you.

Much like I’m not holding my breath that any of you will be able to cogently explain the substantive policy differences between FF and FG.

The day SF take office all the IRA / criminality stuff disappears forever. We should all welcome that as a step forward in Irish political debate. Allows us to focus on things that matter.

TBF, I don't really ever do the 'SFIRA' stuff either. My ire is more focussed on the mindless populism with careful hand-waving away of the little things like details. And costs.

SF will be in government, probably sooner rather than later. And then one of two things will happen:
1/ they tack to the same safely centrist policies as the current government. You become a slightly greener FF.
2/ you actually try to implement your populist rhetoric (which is unachievable) and flame out like all your fellow populists have done. Hopefully not taking the country down with you.

It'll be a fun ride.

[LuckyLloyd]

I think 1 is much more likely than 2

The hope is it’s 1a and there’s a sliver of brave badly needed things in there that deliver meaningful change.

It’ll definitely be fun though - the TAEKs will be off the charts.

[Kayroo]

The day SF take office all the IRA / criminality stuff disappears forever.

I am not sure you're right about this. Actually I see it being a bit of a problem for SF. They are one hell of a political operation but in Govt they may find themselves with a few too many councillors saying dumb things at the wrong time or someone being appointed as a special advisor who used to be X or was convicted for Y.

Everything appears different under the glaring light of government. The supporters who dismiss the criminal element (which - however you view it - is certainly there) while SF are in opposition and promise the winds of change may take a different view when the new issues of the same ilk arise. There's a substantive difference between a TD having made a comment about some good republican or other and a Minister doing so.


For what it's worth I do hope SF manage to leave all of that behind, but in substance rather than in spirit. The country needs an injection of fresh ideas and while I am not a fan of the SF front bench's policies across the board, nobody can deny they are a generally impressive bunch with a lot of enthusiasm and energy.

In a slightly unrelated note I suspect they will need to be careful in how they approach the national question funnily enough. They could end up burning a lot of political capital on that one without making much headway. They've been quite good on it recently. Varadkar and MLMD had a very good debate on the topic about a year ago and it was conducted in precisely the right spirit by all concerned. That is their best road to achieving their overall objective - everyone's overall objective - on the North.

[Micknail]

There’s no answer that would have satisfied you.

What? Calling bullshit here on your psychic abilities.

Much like I’m not holding my breath that any of you will be able to cogently explain the substantive policy differences between FF and FG.

Great if I answer this will you bother answering me?

I might be a bit younger than ye but honestly I just remember FF basically being fiscally irresponsible under McCreavey with SSIAs and basing an entire economy on building overpriced/under specced houses.

FG on the other hand had to come in to pretty much try to stop clowns turning us into the next Greece or Venezuela.
You do remember the cries of "Nationalise Dell"?!!

Pretty hard to promise the world when there was fuck all tax coming in to pay for anything, god forbid we would pay 3 quid a week for a utility, whist absolutely making allowances for those who couldn't!
No they didn't solve everything, name me a country that did in the last 12 years.

The day SF take office all the IRA / criminality stuff disappears forever. We should all welcome that as a step forward in Irish political debate. Allows us to focus on things that matter.

It will in its hole, the leadership and the management in the shadows will stop attending memorials of bombers and murderers, really??

Tell me this, when will Sinn Fein actually democratically elect a party leader?

Don't know, don't care??

[LuckyLloyd]

Was the Coveney / Varadkar contest Democratic, would you say?

[LuckyLloyd]

Look the IRA stuff doesn’t bother me, and I mean that. It’s like the heat and light of the sun for some of ye - I get that - but It washes over me.

It’s becoming largely an aul people concern.

[Micknail]

Look the IRA stuff doesn’t bother me, and I mean that. It’s like the heat and light of the sun for some of ye - I get that - but It washes over me.

It’s becoming largely an aul people concern.

And yet SF still rattle off all the retoric when winning a seat, breaking the free state as they say. You may well be ignoring it. Good for you, keep the blinkers on.

Do you want to compare the Varadkar election to party leader to the McDonald one first?

[LuckyLloyd]

Look Micknail, Coveny getting a massive majority of FG members but the intention of a subset of the members counting 10x is not hugely different to the SF process for these matters.

And I have no problem with the FG process. The objective is to choose the right person that moves you forward.

[Micknail]

The galling thing is, if you are this blinkered now, what else would you ignore if they got into power?

I genuinely cant see them pulling enough seats to even get a flaky coalition with anyone but maybe FF next time around, and if that was the case, why wouldnt FF go another route?

Ah what a waste of time, you ignore anything shitty about them,
And everything they plan to do is based on fairytales.
You'll be ok, but vast swathes of this island will be far worse off for much longer then needed due to basically a protest vote.

Why not the Soc Dems or Labour?
Surely if you just want an even more socialist government they fit the bill?

[Hectorjelly]

The day SF take office all the IRA / criminality stuff disappears forever.

That makes it sound like their political opponents will be purged and records destroyed

[LuckyLloyd]

The galling this is, if you are this blinkered now, what else would you ignore if they got into power?

I genuinely cant see them pulling enough seats to even get a flaky coalition with anyone but maybe FF next time around, and if that was the case, why wouldnt FF go another route?

Ah what a waste of time, you ignore anything shitty about them,
And everything they plan to do is based on fairytales.
You'll be ok, but vast swathes of this island will be far worse off for much longer then needed due to basically a protest vote.

Why not the Soc Dems or Labour?
Surely if you just want an even more socialist government they fit the bill?

I bet you could never genuinely see them polling 37% or being the largest opposition party. 'First they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win, etc'.

You're annoyed at the idea of SF getting into power. Ever more people are annoyed at the prospect of never being able to own their own home. The prospect of SF getting into power is largely a FG creation, that's the bit a lot of ye can't see or won't see.

But listen, you can go ahead and have the last word on this exchange. Good luck.

[AndyFatBastard]

Look the IRA stuff doesn’t bother me, and I mean that. It’s like the heat and light of the sun for some of ye - I get that - but It washes over me.

It’s becoming largely an aul people concern.

It should bother you

[Strewelpeter]

The day SF take office all the IRA / criminality stuff disappears forever. We should all welcome that as a step forward in Irish political debate. Allows us to focus on things that matter.

LOL
quoted for posterity

[Hectorjelly]

Ever more people are annoyed at the prospect of never being able to own their own home.

The prospect of SF getting into power is largely a FG creation, that's the bit a lot of ye can't see or won't see.
.

I agree with the first sentence, that's a major issue and one that's very important to voters. I don't agree with the second though.

Take a look at the housing situation in San Francisco - one of the few places in the world where the situation is far worse than here. The last Republican to win an election there was pre-Nixon. The problem isn't the authorities there are too right-wing, it's that the mainstream housing policies of ALL parties have utterly failed.

Sinn Fein just promise more of the same, but with a communist flavour. There isn't a single bit of evidence that they have tried to learn the lessons from around the world, in fact, their solution almost proves they won't. Their manifesto just makes enemies of easy targets. Criticising Developers, Landlords, Insurance agents and "vulture" funds will get you votes, but it won't build any more houses.

[Hectorjelly]

Since today was effectively a bank holiday for me I read the entire SF 2020 manifesto today, I had a few thoughts with the caveat that I'm sure most manifestoes would annoy me.

1 - Their immigration policy is pretty hardline (relatively speaking), definite vibes of Ireland for the Irish from it

2 - The environmental policy would be actually catastrophic. In fairness, it may have been written before Russia reminded everyone of the importance of energy independence. It's 100% pie-in-the-sky stuff

3 - The entire document is filled with promises to spend more money, they say they will pay for it all with increased taxes, but you can't just put a tax up by 10% and expect to get 10% more tax, changing tax rates changes peoples behaviour. They mention a wealth tax, which is hugely controversial worldwide and very ineffective, AFAIK only France has it. Almost by definition it's a tax that won't raise much money because the wealthy will just leave, or construct elaborate tax avoidance schemes.

4 - "We will run a budgetary surplus every year, reaching a surplus of €3.4 billion by 2025 to protect against any shock to our tax base or decline in revenue" If you believe this I have an NFT of a bridge to sell you

5 - They want to remove us from the NATA partnership for peace and lead efforts to radically reform the EU. I wonder if will they change the first policy now the political winds have really changed.

6 - they want to remove us from all major previously signed trade agreements - I'm sure this is just a throwaway line given how difficult it would be (would we have to leave the EU?), but just makes me think these people are completely unserious

7 - there is plenty of stuff in it that sounds quite reasonable

8 - I thought this is quite telling

"Homeowners should not be burdened with higher mortgage interest rates than their European counterparts and the unfair Local Property Tax. In Government, Sinn Féin would reduce mortgage interest rates by introducing our Bill which would cause the Central Bank to instruct the banks to lower the rates. "

This is interesting because it's basically what Biden is trying to do with Oil now. It does nothing to address why our mortgage rates might be higher than the rest of Europe, they think by ordering banks they can just make it cheaper. If things like this worked then you could just legislate inflation out of existence.

One of the reasons our mortgage rates are higher than Europe is the difficulty and cost of evicting non-paying mortgage holders - but this doesn't have quite the same populist appeal as stringing up some bankers.

9 - lastly, "Banning the theft of workers’ tips by employers"

Too late

[RichieM]

I do think it’s strange that they don’t promise to go through procurement for everything supplied to the state.

We all know there is some serious gouging going on and it is one area that annoys every tax payer.

[Raoul Duke III]

Since today was effectively a bank holiday for me I read the entire SF 2020 manifesto today, I had a few thoughts with the caveat that I'm sure most manifestoes would annoy me.

1 - Their immigration policy is pretty hardline (relatively speaking), definite vibes of Ireland for the Irish from it

2 - The environmental policy would be actually catastrophic. In fairness, it may have been written before Russia reminded everyone of the importance of energy independence. It's 100% pie-in-the-sky stuff

3 - The entire document is filled with promises to spend more money, they say they will pay for it all with increased taxes, but you can't just put a tax up by 10% and expect to get 10% more tax, changing tax rates changes peoples behaviour. They mention a wealth tax, which is hugely controversial worldwide and very ineffective, AFAIK only France has it. Almost by definition it's a tax that won't raise much money because the wealthy will just leave, or construct elaborate tax avoidance schemes.

4 - "We will run a budgetary surplus every year, reaching a surplus of €3.4 billion by 2025 to protect against any shock to our tax base or decline in revenue" If you believe this I have an NFT of a bridge to sell you

5 - They want to remove us from the NATA partnership for peace and lead efforts to radically reform the EU. I wonder if will they change the first policy now the political winds have really changed.

6 - they want to remove us from all major previously signed trade agreements - I'm sure this is just a throwaway line given how difficult it would be (would we have to leave the EU?), but just makes me think these people are completely unserious

7 - there is plenty of stuff in it that sounds quite reasonable

8 - I thought this is quite telling

"Homeowners should not be burdened with higher mortgage interest rates than their European counterparts and the unfair Local Property Tax. In Government, Sinn Féin would reduce mortgage interest rates by introducing our Bill which would cause the Central Bank to instruct the banks to lower the rates. "

This is interesting because it's basically what Biden is trying to do with Oil now. It does nothing to address why our mortgage rates might be higher than the rest of Europe, they think by ordering banks they can just make it cheaper. If things like this worked then you could just legislate inflation out of existence.

One of the reasons our mortgage rates are higher than Europe is the difficulty and cost of evicting non-paying mortgage holders - but this doesn't have quite the same populist appeal as stringing up some bankers.

9 - lastly, "Banning the theft of workers’ tips by employers"

Too late

It's strange how LL, an articulate and intelligent SF supporter, doesn't engage on any of this stuff. Which after all should be what SF are judged on when considering their suitability for government. It's all 'FFG' this, and 'what about' that.

A good way of measuring any Irish political party is to step back from the narrow and hyper-local confines of Irish politics, and see who they coalesce with in the wider EU.

Let's take a look at SF. They belong to GUE\NGL (snappy title ).
Who sits within that elongated acronym alongside Sinn Fein?

• We see the former Communists of Die LInke (Germany).
• Ming Flanagan.
• The Portugese Communist Party
• Various other proto-commies
• Syriza

These are not serious people. They are juvenile protest movements who would run a mile from any notion of actual governing and accountability.

You can see this in SF's manifesto, which LL is trying very hard to avoid discussing.

[LuckyLloyd]

We’ll have opportunity to discuss a relevant manifesto in due course.

SF were able to write whatever they wanted in 2020 because there was no prospect at time of writing of them going into government.

And I said this the other day regarding the candidate vetting - the stakes are higher now so the expectations are too. They’ve had plenty of warnings and practices. Preparation for the next election needs to be on point, and the manifesto will be part of that.

[Raoul Duke III]

We’ll have opportunity to discuss a relevant manifesto in due course.

Why won't you discuss it now? Do you not actually know what your policies are? Or are you just making them up as you go along?

SF were able to write whatever they wanted in 2020 because there was no prospect at time of writing of them going into government.

That is a very revealing quote.

That's like saying 'I wrote former astronaut, Harvard Professor, Premier League Golden Boot winner and Miss World winner on my cv because I didn't think I'd get the job'.

[Strewelpeter]

We’ll have opportunity to discuss a relevant manifesto in due course.

SF were able to write whatever they wanted in 2020 because there was no prospect at time of writing of them going into government.

And I said this the other day regarding the candidate vetting - the stakes are higher now so the expectations are too. They’ve had plenty of warnings and practices. Preparation for the next election needs to be on point, and the manifesto will be part of that.

So what you are saying is SF stand for nothing and will say whatever they think will generate the most votes for them.

[Strewelpeter]

Since today was effectively a bank holiday for me I read the entire SF 2020 manifesto today, I had a few thoughts with the caveat that I'm sure most manifestoes would annoy me.

1 - Their immigration policy is pretty hardline (relatively speaking), definite vibes of Ireland for the Irish from it

Their name is literally We Ourselves.

I have never met a SF activist that I couldn't clearly label a racist. I'm holding out hope for LL but I've always believed that if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

[6starpool]

SF Policy Summary: Robin Hood with super magic house building capabilities.

[Raoul Duke III]

SF Policy Summary: Robin Hood with super magic house building capabilities.

But don't look too close. Or ask questions.

[6starpool]

But don't look too close. Or ask questions.

I don't know why anyone else didn't think about paying people less or paying less for raw materials. It's a revolutionary idea. Never mind building houses and apartments in the perfect place that no one will object to, people want to live, and with a simple planning process that happens quickly on land that is cheap.

[Raoul Duke III]

I don't know why anyone else didn't think about paying people less or paying less for raw materials. It's a revolutionary idea. Never mind building houses and apartments in the perfect place that no one will object to, people want to live, and with a simple planning process that happens quickly on land that is cheap.

I like the fact that they can simply order mortgage rates to be reduced. Why did no-one ever think of this before?

[6starpool]

I like the fact that they can simply order mortgage rates to be reduced. Why did no-one ever think of this before?

Just greedy banks profiteering. There can obviously be no other explanation. Certainly nothing to do with the fact that the asset the loan is secured upon being virtually impossible to actually be used as loan security in the event of not keeping up with the payments.

[Mellor]

It was a genuine attempt to see how a SF voter accounts for the parties illicit activity. I would have taken any answer really!

The same way everyone else does with the party the voted for since forever.

LOL
quoted for posterity

Do you think it doesn't? Presumably you've only ever voted foe independents in that case. and probably only a subset fool in that case.

[Ed]

While most of you are being weird Tories just checking in to say the new album from Jessie Buckley & Bernard Butler is very good, so is Angel Olsen's new one.

[DeadParrot]

Their name is literally We Ourselves.

I have never met a SF activist that I couldn't clearly label a racist. I'm holding out hope for LL but I've always believed that if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

I'm no fan of SF but this is ridiculous.
Lloyd may be many things, he may kill you, eat you, wear your arse like a hat as he power rows in an stationary position but nothing I know of him indicates whether he would prefer what colour you are.

All jokes aside, I think that is a lazy insinuation brought on by your own hatred of the shinners man.

[Denny Crane]

If you have your house and are earning 100k+ then obviously the FFG status quo is great, and it would be ‘illogical’ to vote something else in.

Home ownership rates have decreased ~12% in less than two decades. As the economy has boomed, a cohort of people who would have been forced to emigrate have been able to stay. There are ever more people who work hard, are ambitious and who vote for whom housing is an ever increasing causes of stress and uncertainty. They did all the things they were supposed to do, they played by the rules but unfortunately Daddy doesn’t have a chunk of cash for them.

I get it. FFG haven’t declared a national emergency footing for housing because they understand that the majority of their base don’t face the issue. Of course, more and more of the kids and grandkids of their base do. And that is the X factor that is topping off the current astonishing polling numbers for SF.

Now that I own my home and advanced in my career I understand where ye all are coming from. Pull up the ladders and all that. But more and more people are not making those transitions and it is those things that make them feel they have sufficient stake in the system to vote for more of the status quo. FG have been in government for a decade. Housing is in a fucking shambles. When would it be their responsibility? I think the reality is FG don’t really think there is a problem with housing. I know many of you here don’t believe there is a problem. This is why you might find it all ‘illogical’. The people right there living it will understand it. And they feel like they have nothing to lose.

I think there are significant miscalculations being made here too about what will happen if an election went as per current polling. We’d be in existential threat territory for FFG imo. Sure we’ll listen to talk of ‘hurlers in the ditch’ and all that again as both coalition partners try and stay in the sidelines and hope for a Frankenstein SF left wing coalition with a flimsy majority. But beware ignoring the will of the electorate and blocking it. Go back to the polls for another go round? Try and force a stalemate for months? May you live in interesting times and all that.

The big fly in the ointment is how the coming recession affects all of this. Don’t think it will help FFG‘s polling tbh. Maybe it alleviates the acute pain of the housing crisis. But by enough to balance how people will be feeling about their new found unemployment?

What I hope SF are working on is finding enough candidates and vetting them properly. Scrub those social media profiles fucking clean lads. You’ve had more than enough trials and warnings on this topic. If they fuck that low initial hurdle up then yeah we’ll need to strap ourselves in for an exceptionally bumpy ride.

SF have one of the worst voting records for opposing new housing. Housing shouldn't be plank for them. They've done all they can to perpetuate the problem.

[Micknail]

The same way everyone else does with the party the voted for since forever.

Can only speak for myself but I've voted for a plethora of different party candidates, but obviously can't even get a proper answer out of LL.

[Denny Crane]

• We’re not planning for any reasonable range of population growth over the next 15/20 years. Somewhere between 500k and 1.5m more folk in the next 20 years. That’s 100% a planning/govt issue.

There's no indication that things will ever improve. Essentially will be a two-tiered county, between the people fortunate enough to buy early/inherit in the city, and everyone else.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Jaysus the new windows have transformed the house. To think we used to live in single-pane deprivation.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

I think we're genuinely in a transformation into a Dublin that just consists of rich accommodation and social housing. With no-one in-between. A bit like London. It's quite brutal. Mainly, I think caused by nimbyism. Of whom SF are the primary inadvertent advocates based on their objections to almost every new development. If we would just build up then there could be all levels of accommodation, from starter homes to next level.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

There's no indication that things will ever improve. Essentially will be a two-tiered county, between the people fortunate enough to buy early/inherit in the city, and everyone else.

I think the divide will be between Dublin and everywhere else. Like in the UK. There's endless land for affordable building outside Dublin. But realistically those three-bed-semis that everyone wants and SF idealises can't be built in Dublin

[eamonhonda]

While most of you are being weird Tories just checking in to say the new album from Jessie Buckley & Bernard Butler is very good, so is Angel Olsen's new one.

Awful muck being talked in the bbv, more music chat needed. Just back from sonar, how great is it to have festivals back.

For Those I Love, while definitely won't be a lot of people's cup of tea, might have been the most passion I've ever seen from a music performance ever.

[Goodluck2me]

There’s no answer that would have satisfied you.

Much like I’m not holding my breath that any of you will be able to cogently explain the substantive policy differences between FF and FG.

The day SF take office all the IRA / criminality stuff disappears forever. We should all welcome that as a step forward in Irish political debate. Allows us to focus on things that matter.

Most people don’t know the difference because it’s not important, my vote for either party is interchangeable to be honest. They both (in my opionion) stand for stability, international credibility which is important for Ireland more than most given our soft power and reliance on FDI, and that’s why I vote that way. I think FG are the more responsible party and thought Noonan and Pascal were excellent ambassadors for the people during difficult times. I think it’s actually harder to govern responsibly when things are going very well are people expect everything to happen for them, without the excuse of balancing budgets.

Also one poster mentioned the FF SSIA scheme, that in my opinion was an excellent idea at the time to dampen demand at a time when we didn’t control our interest rates, it’s just a real shame it didn’t mature in 2009/2010 when we could really have done with the consumer boost. Instead it exacerbated an already bubbling bubble.

[Solksjaer!]

I think i was in 1st class when i understood what ourselves alone means . racist ? Trolling methinks. Fair nuff .


Did Ole survive Dublin northside ?

or
Dublin has him now .

[Lazare]

I think i was in 1st class when i understood what ourselves alone means . racist ? Trolling methinks. Fair nuff .


Did Ole survive Dublin northside ?

or
Dublin has him now .

Transatlantic?

MBN

[Raoul Duke III]

Most people don’t know the difference because it’s not important, my vote for either party is interchangeable to be honest. They both (in my opionion) stand for stability, international credibility which is important for Ireland more than most given our soft power and reliance on FDI, and that’s why I vote that way. I think FG are the more responsible party and thought Noonan and Pascal were excellent ambassadors for the people during difficult times. I think it’s actually harder to govern responsibly when things are going very well are people expect everything to happen for them, without the excuse of balancing budgets.

Also one poster mentioned the FF SSIA scheme, that in my opinion was an excellent idea at the time to dampen demand at a time when we didn’t control our interest rates, it’s just a real shame it didn’t mature in 2009/2010 when we could really have done with the consumer boost. Instead it exacerbated an already bubbling bubble.

FF, not to put it impolitely, has a history of somewhat buccaneering senior figures (including several taoisigh), with a, ahem, novel approach to their own personal finances. They bear full political responsibility for the crash of 2008. So corruption and irresponsibility are deep in their DNA.

I certainly wouldn't say they and FG are fungible.

Although I understand why SF sloganize as they do.

[Theresa]

KPMG doubling the purse for the LPGA Womens PGA Championship is class. 9million dollar purse now. Crazy really. Tiger really was something else for the game of golf.

I don't watch women's sport in general but I do watch a lot of LPGA golf and its class to see the growth. Ya love to see it.

Leona right up there for a major this week too.

[LuckyLloyd]

FF, not to put it impolitely, has a history of somewhat buccaneering senior figures (including several taoisigh), with a, ahem, novel approach to their own personal finances. They bear full political responsibility for the crash of 2008. So corruption and irresponsibility are deep in their DNA.

I certainly wouldn't say they and FG are fungible.

Although I understand why SF sloganize as they do.

As discussed here before, FG and Labour had zero opposition on the core aspects that caused the 2008 crash. Indeed, they didn't fight the 2007 general election on any of those points.

I am left to ponder how different it would have been if FG happened to be in power at that time, given the banking crisis and housing bubble were largely a failure of regulation and our bankers were aping the big shots on Wall Street as best they could. Maybe it wouldn't have been quite so bad, but that is a somewhat tenuous argument.

Nonetheless, if the difference between FG and FF is merely the personalities who have happened to lead either party, SF's characterization of them as the same seems to have merit. This is increasingly the conclusion of the general public too. I take Joe's point - it doesn't matter, vote for whichever depending on how the wind is blowing and throw a preference to whichever party you want to be brutalised for getting involved. But really they should merge. There's no actual substantial differences there. The Civil War was a century ago lads.

[Goodluck2me]

FF, not to put it impolitely, has a history of somewhat buccaneering senior figures (including several taoisigh), with a, ahem, novel approach to their own personal finances. They bear full political responsibility for the crash of 2008. So corruption and irresponsibility are deep in their DNA.

I certainly wouldn't say they and FG are fungible.

Although I understand why SF sloganize as they do.

Two points there, first is that today on a policy basis they are, which was lloyds questions.

Second FG weren’t in power long enough to compare likely corruption from leaders. I’d argue that FF were significantly less corrupt (and successful) until Haughey changed the party irreversibly. I think when you mention the crash you have to also compare the country from when they took over, to the crash which was undoubtedly better off. It’s just a shame the BErties and Charlies were in place then and ruined much of their (and the country’s) progress.

[LuckyLloyd]

Awful muck being talked in the bbv, more music chat needed. Just back from sonar, how great is it to have festivals back.

For Those I Love, while definitely won't be a lot of people's cup of tea, might have been the most passion I've ever seen from a music performance ever.

Was at Primavera a couple of weeks ago and it was a euphoric experience. Being around that many people without a care in the world. Life affirming stuff.

[Goodluck2me]

As discussed here before, FG and Labour had zero opposition on the core aspects that caused the 2008 crash. Indeed, they didn't fight the 2007 general election on any of those points.

I am left to ponder how different it would have been if FG happened to be in power at that time, given the banking crisis and housing bubble were largely a failure of regulation and our bankers were aping the big shots on Wall Street as best they could. Maybe it wouldn't have been quite so bad, but that is a somewhat tenuous argument.

Nonetheless, if the difference between FG and FF is merely the personalities who have happened to lead either party, SF's characterization of them as the same seems to have merit. This is increasingly the conclusion of the general public too. I take Joe's point - it doesn't matter, vote for whichever depending on how the wind is blowing and throw a preference to whichever party you want to be brutalised for getting involved. But really they should merge. There's no actual substantial differences there. The Civil War was a century ago lads.

The main reason not to merge is so that people like me can call for change without having to actually elect a different party and they keep swapping in and out.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

The main reason not to merge is so that people like me can call for change without having to actually elect a different party and they keep swapping in and out.

Its almost like we are:

1. One of the most equal societies in the world
2. One of the most successful economies in the world
3. One of the highest quality of life societies in the world

and that awful electorate wants that to continue...

[Kayroo]

We’ll have opportunity to discuss a relevant manifesto in due course.

SF were able to write whatever they wanted in 2020 because there was no prospect at time of writing of them going into government.

And I said this the other day regarding the candidate vetting - the stakes are higher now so the expectations are too. They’ve had plenty of warnings and practices. Preparation for the next election needs to be on point, and the manifesto will be part of that.

This is a rather remarkable series of admissions. You're currently supporting a party whose policies you think are nonsense and they don't really mean them and whose candidates are poorly vetted and you think they need to cull (at least some) of them.

I don't think this is the wonderful counterpoint you imagine it to be. Particularly when you later criticise Labour and FG circa 2007 for being unrealistic in opposition and just going with the prevailing winds of FF's policy positions. That's exactly what SF are doing. Sticking their finger in the air, seeing which way the wind is blowing and no matter how irresponsible - adopting that as a policy platform.

I'll be interested to see their next manifesto to be sure. They've likely learned from 2011 Labour to avoid over-promise and under-deliver at all costs. I'll also be fascinated to see their approach to housing objections once they're in government. They will likely benefit from the current Housing for All policy (the one actual coherent policy the government has - even if some of it is a bit mental), which would be a unique irony. I suspect we may see a sudden drop off in SF objections to housing projects once they're in power.

[Kayroo]

Their name is literally We Ourselves.

I have never met a SF activist that I couldn't clearly label a racist. I'm holding out hope for LL but I've always believed that if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

Utter nonsense. I do not agree with SF on many issues, but to label all of their activists as racist is plainly nonsense.