Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Wordle Gummidge

[ComradeCollie]

Caption Competition: describe the look on HJ's face in the above^^

'Vote No1 HJ. I'll sort out the roads'

[Goodluck2me]

You are extracting the specific to the general. I am not arguing that the State should not fund things I disagree with. As a general principle that is completely unstateable. You may have noticed that I do not suggest for a moment that religious people should not be allowed to educate their children in their preferred approach. I've said that insofar as the religious instruction of their children is concerned that is a matter for their church/flock/whatever. I am happy for them to set up Sunday schools, have their kids attend and learn all about their religion and its meaning. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

What I am not in favour of is giving specific religious instruction in schools. When a child has to sit at the back of the class away from everyone else while they do their communion lessons. Or sit in another class while the rest of the class goes off to learn about confession in the local church. When that child is made to feel different, and strange, and wrong just because they don't have the same faith as the default religious order. Schools are no place for that. It creates a peer pressure to join in. It is a form of subtle and coercive indoctrination. My friends are all doing it so I want to do it. How is that giving people choice? It is forcing a choice on everyone and saying "if you don't like it, then sit outside". The choice should not be to remove oneself, the choice should be to include oneself. That is best achieved by letting churches impart their religious teachings outside the classroom. Religion is for the pulpit and the temple, schools are for actual education.

What is the argument for leaving things the way they are?

Again, this is all based on not having enough schools to cater for it, none of what you said is intrinsically bad, and could be solved for sending said children to non-faith schools.

Also on the bolded bit, of course you are by saying they can’t do it in State funded schools. What if their preferred approach is in school?

The argument for leaving things as they are is that they work well for large amounts of people who want to see it continue.

[Solksjaer!]

We now live in a very diverse society, Keith's argument couldn't be more current. Yours is the archaic one.

As for my outrage, I'm flabbergasted anyone can think of 796 toddler bodies in a sewer in Tuam, the 'good' ones stolen and sold and post today about how quaint and lovely the church is.

All kids are atheist btw, until a parent forces it onto them.

Hmm tenuous linkage there

You also like to express disdain at footie and the Dubs etc. Rightly so maybe.

To me you are just like the footie fans here . Take Greenwood , he is banned for sexual bullying of his girlfriend. Footies fans say , typical mamc scum. However its nothing to do with Mamchester .

Similarly the atrocities of the individuals in the Church have zero to do with the majority of decent people who call themselves Catholic. There is nothing in the religion to support what happened those poor innocents . Its humans being cunts .

Anyhoo i dont want to defend a creed im not particularly devout im merely pointing out the other side of the argument
I see you didnt get my point on how the church has changed . The Tuam atrocities would not happen today.

Happy friday .

[Solksjaer!]

If there was no Churches HJ would be standing in an empty field now . Probably get sunstroke.

Once again GOD looks after his own

[Raoul Duke III]

Baldies rejoice! (of whom there a few on here).

Sending some cash GAB's way in recognition of past sexual harassment in this regard.

[Solksjaer!]

Tip for Mattice ew york 5.20

just an impulse to pass it on. Normally i lose and say nuthin.

[Emmet]

Any nordies? Best way to get to Dublin from Belfast tomorrow morning? Bus/Train w/e
stag party ruining my life as need to get there show a face and then leg it back for the match. Lift fell through at v short notice.

[Lazare]

Hmm tenuous linkage there

You also like to express disdain at footie and the Dubs etc. Rightly so maybe.

To me you are just like the footie fans here . Take Greenwood , he is banned for sexual bullying of his girlfriend. Footies fans say , typical mamc scum. However its nothing to do with Mamchester .

Similarly the atrocities of the individuals in the Church have zero to do with the majority of decent people who call themselves Catholic. There is nothing in the religion to support what happened those poor innocents . Its humans being cunts .

Anyhoo i dont want to defend a creed im not particularly devout im merely pointing out the other side of the argument
I see you didnt get my point on how the church has changed . The Tuam atrocities would not happen today.

Happy friday .

Willie, my position is they shouldn't be forgiven for it.

Tuam is the example I use for most effect, but there are countless examples of their insidiousness right up to very very recent times.

Their subtle and simple message has never changed though, and it's a dangerous one. 'Believe in what we're telling you or you're damned'. They sugar it up in cosy language but that's the message.

How anyone would have an appetite for that entering their imppresionable child's mind is beyond me.

[Solksjaer!]

Thats not the message . Ya have me defending it agsin.

On your deathbed a priest/god will forgive you. Win/win. In fact thats the flaw .

You are not damned for being a good person. You are not called an infidel . Cheery picking there.

[Goodluck2me]

We now live in a very diverse society, Keith's argument couldn't be more current. Yours is the archaic one.

As for my outrage, I'm flabbergasted anyone can think of 796 toddler bodies in a sewer in Tuam, the 'good' ones stolen and sold and post today about how quaint and lovely the church is.

All kids are atheist btw, until a parent forces it onto them.

We should ensure no Russians run schools, or Senior Councils (given the shooting a few weeks ago) either. No one in their right mind no matter how dogmatic would not find the Tuam scandal anything other than horrendous, but it’s a moot point in this argument.

We live in a diverse society, not necessarily a secular one, so why not allow the choice.

[DeadParrot]

Caption Competition: describe the look on HJ's face in the above^^

"Is it a sin to fart in a church?"

[Raoul Duke III]

Thats not the message . Ya have me defending it agsin.

On your deathbed a priest/god will forgive you. Win/win. In fact thats the flaw .

You are not damned for being a good person. You are not called an infidel . Cheery picking there.

Well, you can't be too careful.

On his deathbed, Voltaire, the great French philosopher. In the opposite corner, a priest.

"Do you renounce the Devil all his works?"

"Now, Sir, is not the time to be making enemies."

[Goodluck2me]

How anyone would have an appetite for that entering their imppresionable child's mind is beyond me.

My entire experience of it was universally positive, I have nothing but fond memories of it and wish to continue that if I had a family. It’s really as simple as that. I’m aware others may be different, and for a variety of reasons did not have a positive experience from the minor to the major. I could say the same about a range of things, I wouldn’t suggest that we stop teaching/coaching GAA in schools because of Tom Humphrey etc. I can agree that the RC influence has been too strong in government in Ireland and that was overreach has caused many to fight back, but I don’t think replacing one intolerance for another is the right approach.

[DeadParrot]

We should ensure no Russians run schools, or Senior Councils (given the shooting a few weeks ago) either. No one in their right mind no matter how dogmatic would not find the Tuam scandal anything other than horrendous, but it’s a moot point in this argument.

We live in a diverse society, not necessarily a secular one, so why not allow the choice.

I've largely stayed out of this but one of the core points Kayroo was making is that largely there isn't one for many parents/students.

[Raoul Duke III]

One of the lads I was out with last night has acquired a Ukrainian lady friend. As a token of her esteem, she has given him one of these 'fuck you Russian warship!' stamps, which are apparently massive collector's items. Pretty funky.

20220512_221354-d.jpg

[6starpool]

My entire experience of it was universally positive, I have nothing but fond memories of it and wish to continue that if I had a family. It’s really as simple as that. I’m aware others may be different, and for a variety of reasons did not have a positive experience from the minor to the major. I could say the same about a range of things, I wouldn’t suggest that we stop teaching/coaching GAA in schools because of Tom Humphrey etc. I can agree that the RC influence has been too strong in government in Ireland and that was overreach has caused many to fight back, but I don’t think replacing one intolerance for another is the right approach.

I'm glad you had so many positive experiences of it, and thankfully I had none of the extreme negative ones either, apart from finding the whole thing tedious a lot of the time.

If you want to attend religious gatherings now, and raise any children you may have to regularly attend and go through all the rites, then that is absolutely your prerogative as a believer in there being a divine being that is accurately reflected in catholic church teachings, but that doesn't mean that kids of other and no religions, many of whom have little choice in what school they attend, should have to lose education time or feel excluded from classes or activities. There often isn't an alternative. Thankfully I have an alternative for my little louts, but in a brief period when I considered the logistics of moving back to Sligo, I noted with some shock, but not much unfortunately, that there is only one multi denominational school in the whole county. For other kid related reasons, we aren't moving west, and while it wouldn't have been a deal breaker, it would have irritated me.

[Solksjaer!]

I've largely stayed out of this but one of the core points Kayroo was making is that largely there isn't one for many parents/students.

AGAIN
But whats the problem? Even in the schools you are not forced to do anything ? Your kids are not sent to Coventry . Redic assertion really and if they feel that way , tackle it .

Up until 2 years ago none of my kids were baptized. The eldest (the former atheist

*seem to have lost a lot of the message text. Meh.

[Kayroo]

Again, this is all based on not having enough schools to cater for it, none of what you said is intrinsically bad, and could be solved for sending said children to non-faith schools.

Also on the bolded bit, of course you are by saying they can’t do it in State funded schools. What if their preferred approach is in school?

The argument for leaving things as they are is that they work well for large amounts of people who want to see it continue.

Why not then send all children to non-faith schools and have religions teach their faith in private settings? Or allow them to set up private schools to cater for those who truly want their children to receive an education with a religious underpinning? Leaving things as they are in an increasingly diverse population is only storing up a bigger problem for later. I might be coming at this from an atheist position but what about Muslim kids in Gort or Hindu children in Termonfeckin? Why must the default position be that everyone is Catholic and everyone who isn't can go and sit in the corner?

Right now we don't even do opt-out properly. It just isn't working, which is likely a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights, the Irish Constitution and even Irish domestic law in some respects. Here is a submission from a group of teachers, parents and academics who wanted to see opt-out work. Because right now it doesn't. In some school environments they don't have the resources to supervise opt-out children so they have to stay in class while the religious teaching goes on, expressly against the wishes of their parents. In some schools the opt-out period is either colouring or heads on desks because the schools felt it would be unfair to disadvantage the religious children by allowing the opt-out kids to do homework or study other subjects - thus giving them an advantage.

Religion runs right through the whole school curriculum. As others have recounted it seeps most obviously into sexual education where children are given a warped message that adheres to religious doctrine and not to best educational practice. Removing it from schools, both in patronage and particularly from the classroom, is to free educators to actually educate. This is leaving aside things like how schools could (until recently) refuse to hire LGBTQI+ teachers solely on the basis of their sexuality. This was referenced by Gary Gannon TD in the Dail only this week, referring to the continuing fear of an LGBTQI+ teacher making any reference to their lives that might give away their sexuality. Religion causes that fear.

Education is a responsibility of the State. Let the State pay for it, run it and be answerable to the electorate for it. Religion is the responsibility of the religions. Let them pay for it, run it and be answerable to their god or gods for it. The two simply should not be intertwined.

[Solksjaer!]

"Is it a sin to fart in a church?"

No but you must sit in your own pew afterwards .

[Lazare]

the schools felt it would be unfair to disadvantage the religious children by allowing the opt-out kids to do homework or study other subjects - thus giving them an advantage.

How utterly twisted this is.

Highlights the absolute waste of quality time and educational opportunities taken up by it.

[Kayroo]

Something I’ve notice before it that religion is clearly a subject that gets right up your nose. To the extent that you actually seem to make much less fundamentally sound arguments than you usually would.

It's an odd element of this topic that whenever Laz or I argue about it, we become part of the argument. The issues I am arguing are either arguable or not. How I feel about religion has no bearing on that. Pointing to it in this fashion is an attempt to undermine my argument solely by reference to me personally rather than by reference to the arguments I have made. Which is beneath you Mellor.

The analogy is basically: a GAA school could dictate the sports program, to the same extent that a church school could decide to teach religion.
The fact religion is fantasy is no way makes that analogy fall apart. No part of that analogy involves scientifically validity.

It's often an error to argue about the accuracy of an analogy as you lose sight of the actual point being made. Perhaps we have both fallen into this trap. If the GAA owned a school and dictated the sporting program then that would be fine because, to the best of my knowledge, the GAA do not generally attempt to alter government policy on women's reproductive rights, who can marry whom etc. Nor do they tell little children that if they don't confess their sins to a priest that eternal damnation and torment await them.

Albeit I accept the GAA probably do say that missing training or breaking a drinks ban can lead to eternal damnation and torment.

You and I, and many posters here believe it’s not true. As I said I’d be fine sending kids to a secular school. I’d encourage it in fact (well if I was going to have kids).
But I stop short of dictating to others what their beliefs should be. I think that sort of arrogant.

I am not dictating to anyone what they should believe. I have repeatedly said people should be free to profess their religion as they see fit. I just don't think that it has a place in a system of education since it is a belief system, not a field of study. (Albeit there is, of course, a valid field of study of religion itself)

Funded by the state? Your point, that I questioned, was all schools not just state schools. So not really relevant. I agree re: state funds.

But if, say, 90% of the population wanted it in schools. That would quite clearly and democratically support it in schools. Incredibly wrong to suggest it doesn’t.

You didn’t say it cannot be taught. But you did suggest how it could be taught. Telling people that they should not have the right to teach their kids religion via private schools is absolutely dictating how people should live.

I’m curious what you think gives you the right to make that call?

I am pretty sure I have never said this. Mostly because I do not believe it. There are almost no private schools in Ireland and the ones we have are (I think) all non-denominational. I have no issues with private schools. I mean, how could I? I am not telling anyone how to live their lives. I am asking for people not to insist on my children being forced to sit through a religious indoctrination. That seems reasonable enough to me.

Again, public funding shifting in. Not relevant to the point I made.
Norms exist. Using the above logic, teaching subjects in English “others” those whose household primary language is not English. But there’s a really sensible reason to do so, just like Irish language schools have validity.
Many people are not fans of sports, in their view doing sports “others” children who do not play sports. The list of ways people can be different is endless. Can you really cater to everyone?


So the only options are no schools or all-schools? That’s quite the false dichotomy. Both are awful, either you force those who want it or prevent those who who do.
Crazy thought, maybe forcing all-people to follow any one persons beliefs is what is wrong.

But again focusing on the state-funded. The original analogy was about hypothetical GAA/Church owned and operated schools, not state school. And you clearly said it has no place in ANY school - which was what I called out. Your really distancing yourself from that clanger. So much so that I suspect you know it’s wrong and a pretty hard spot to defend.

It's not a clanger Mellor. You read something into my post that was not there. If you want to have that argument - one you'd have a much better chance of arguing successfully - then it won't be with me. I don't care what churches do in the privacy of their own churches (within obvious limits). What I do have a problem with is forcing it on everyone else through a mandatory state-run process like education. I do not understand what the issue is with asking churches to take responsibility for teaching religion. Is this such a radical notion? Is it beyond the competency of a church to teach religion to children effectively? Does it have to be taught alongside maths and history and chemistry as if it was the same thing? Surely a priest would be better at teaching the doctrine of catholicism than anyone else? They are shepherds of their flocks aren't they? Let them shepherd.

[Solksjaer!]

How utterly twisted this is.

Highlights the absolute waste of quality time and educational opportunities taken up by it.

He probably has his links ready to prove his point . The real point is IF this is\was the case its up to PARENTS to tackle it. Btw Sample size etc?

Your religon and education of same is not the Church's responsibility. Its yours.(if you so wish) The Church facillitates .
Where you choose to have it taught is up to you. The DEMAND is for schools. i talk to a lot of parents who dont want their kids christened etc and not 1 has engaged in the hysterical cries of mal treatment of their child. Its actually NEVER been better . I award this debate to Joe .


One final point . Educational opportunities are in HUGE aboundance . The lockdown proved that in reality Schools themselves need to embrace technology more and more and MOOTing this whole debate.

all this in the Month of Mary.

[Kayroo]

Sorry I missed one part of your post Mellor - the use of anathema was a pun. It's correct in context (promotion of falsehoods is something that true education should deeply dislike, albeit the personification of education probably makes it a clunky phrasing) and it is also a pun given the term also means someone who is excommunicated.

[ComradeCollie]

Still left wondering what Kayroo thinks of Britney. Seems like harmless stuff to me, though maybe I've missed something. Is it just the Instagram stuff?

[Kayroo]

Britney Spears? I mean, I liked her early work. And Toxic is a certified banger. Is there something else going on I should be aware of? Is it that guardianship thing she's been involved in you mean?

[hotspur]

It's an odd element of this topic that whenever Laz or I argue about it, we become part of the argument. The issues I am arguing are either arguable or not. How I feel about religion has no bearing on that.

You can't be talked to on the topic of religion. I'm not sure why people are trying.

[hotspur]

There's a film on on TG4 at 21:25 called Five Card Stud:

After a cardsharp is caught cheating, he is taken out and lynched by the drunkards he was playing against. Soon afterwards, the men who were in the lynch mob start being murdered, one after another; all by hanging. Who will be killed next and who is responsible? Is it one of the original party seeking to cover their accursed deed, or perhaps the mysterious Rev Jonathan Rudd, who has recently arrived in town?

[ComradeCollie]

Britney Spears? I mean, I liked her early work. And Toxic is a certified banger. Is there something else going on I should be aware of? Is it that guardianship thing she's been involved in you mean?

I see that Britney's father may not have been the control freak he was made out to be, but rather someone who was genuinely looking out for his extremely troubled daughter.

That's right - I'm calling out today Tuesday 10th of May as IPB Britney Discussion Day.

Ah I was only hoping to change the debate to something more trivial. Though generally don't think she's been any more nuts than the likes of Johnny Depp.

[Kayroo]

You can't be talked to on the topic of religion. I'm not sure why people are trying.

Why is this being personalised to me? If my position is wrong or there is a good argument for mandating catholic religious instruction being part of the classroom experience in 90% of Irish schools (effectively monopolising rural education in particular) then let's hear it.

[Kayroo]

Ah I was only hoping to change the debate to something more trivial. Though generally don't think she's been any more nuts than the likes of Johnny Depp.

Bit harsh on Britney surely? I am not sure anything she has done is really comparable to some of the things he is accused of having done.

I checked out her insta there after you mentioned it and... boy that's a rabbit hole.

[Kayroo]

On your broader point Collie I will drop it (even in the teeth of what I expect will be a multi-quote masterpiece from Mellor). I know people either feel strongly and are unlikely to change their views (I admit I likely fall into that camp also) or they don't care. I don't wish to be the noise that blocks out the signal in here. I won't engage on the topic further in deference to you!

[Solksjaer!]

Bit harsh on Britney surely? I am not sure anything she has done is really comparable to some of the things he is accused of having done.

I checked out her insta there after you mentioned it and... boy that's a rabbit hole.

Your defence of my darling Britney does you credit . I shall add you to my prayers along with the Chelsea football team tonight.

[ComradeCollie]

On your broader point Collie I will drop it (even in the teeth of what I expect will be a multi-quote masterpiece from Mellor). I know people either feel strongly and are unlikely to change their views (I admit I likely fall into that camp also) or they don't care. I don't wish to be the noise that blocks out the signal in here. I won't engage on the topic further in deference to you!

Hey I'm a bottle and a half of wine in, and watching Gardiners World. Don't be taking anything I say seriously.

BTW there is no signal here to be interrupted. Engage away!

[Lazare]

On your broader point Collie I will drop it (even in the teeth of what I expect will be a multi-quote masterpiece from Mellor). I know people either feel strongly and are unlikely to change their views (I admit I likely fall into that camp also) or they don't care. I don't wish to be the noise that blocks out the signal in here. I won't engage on the topic further in deference to you!

Yep, this conversation is one that never leaves you mentally content.

Doubly so when arguing it with people you like.

[ComradeCollie]

It is kind of funny how different peoples experience of school even in the same country is. It was only recently that I mentioned to a friend that my secondary school had 9 classes in each year, and they thought I was bulshitting. My younger brother was over last month and had confirmed the same. Found a paper on the school from a few years ago that confirms more than 1000 students in the 80s too https://www.gov.ie/en/school-report/5fo9nk-/# One thing that is rarely mentioned is that it was the only school in the area that was wheelchair accessible, so all the local 'wheelies' as we would call them went there. Was a totally useless place for getting grades, though think the experience was far better overall than the other options.

[ComradeCollie]

Quite the song title

[Goodluck2me]

Why is this being personalised to me? If my position is wrong or there is a good argument for mandating catholic religious instruction being part of the classroom experience in 90% of Irish schools (effectively monopolising rural education in particular) then let's hear it.

You see that’s not what you’ve said until now, and the point above it more reasonable. I, too, don’t lobby for the “mandating of catholic religious instruction to be be part of the classroom experience for 90% of Irish schools”, but as you so vehemently put it earlier that you don’t think it should be part of any state school, which is where I took exception.

You’ll notice that I haven’t advocated for beliefs or changing your mind etc. simply that if I have children that they may follow/be allowed to follow in the same footsteps as to my own school experience which was universally positive.

[Raoul Duke III]

Getting two bathrooms put in all week, quite the amount of banging and dust as to be expected. Should be all done today (although I can see Mrs D3 putting on her 'not quite what I pictured' face), thank fuck, as part 1 of the 'renovate the house from 1972 to 2022' project. Next guy arrives Monday to reconfigure the downstairs layout.

Anyway, so far so boring. There is one guy doing the main bathroom and three guys doing the ensuite. Let's call the one guy Alex, for that is his name. He is an absolute dynamo. Sitting outside in his van from about 7 each morning, even though he says he'll start at 8. Just goes solid through the day. Refuses all offers of tea, coffee, biscuits etc while the three ensuite lads are having a disco party with multiple breaks all day. Offered him a beer last night: "no thank you, I do not drink alcohol." Has about three cigarettes a day and haven't seen him eat.
I'm in awe of this guy. Says he constructs one bathroom a week, works 6/7 days. Give me a hundred of him and you could do anything!

[Raoul Duke III]

All sorts of rumours now swirling about Putin's health, both physical and psychological. The head of Ukrainian military intelligence gave them further oxygen yesterday.
Those crazy speeches before the war started should have been plenty to confirm anyone's judgement that he is indeed Mad Vlad. And he really looks ill, puffy face, tremors, gripping tables for support. And the whole weird physical distancing thing.

It would obviously be excellent news if he'd just keel over but who would be next in line is a very murky topic...

[Lazare]

Irisholdfolkboards.com question.

Have any of you gone for bowel screening? Wonderiing what's involved with one.

[Lazare]

Although, I've just realised the screening program is open only for 60 - 69 year olds.

[ArmaniJeans]

So, IPB Eurovision 2022 Sweep - Lets Rise like a Phoenix with the mudafucka beat.
25 countries participating, going to strike out the fav - Ukraine. Leaves 24 (solid at maths me).

Need 8 players @ €25. Honour based system, no escrow, so only known good eggs need apply.

You will get 3 countries each in a random draw (moderate seeding to prevent anyone getting three 100/1 shots) overseen by me.

Complicated Scoring system - your two lowest scoring countries count, add them together and the lowest overall total scoops the whole pot.
Open to all but much more fun if you will be watching and drunkenly posting as it happens.

And remember - We've Got the World Tonight.

I'll be back about 12.30pm to check on names/numbers, if 8 names are in don't worry - keep adding your name for a second game.

[oleras]

Inski

[oleras]

Irisholdfolkboards.com question.

Have any of you gone for bowel screening? Wonderiing what's involved with one.

Get your GP to refer you to get the cameras, up and down. Once over 40 should really be done every 5 years, they will find polyps and remove them, these will turn nasty if left afaik.

That stuff you drink the day before to flush you out is great craic.

[Strewelpeter]

In please

[oleras]

My 100 bet will return 600 when Ukraine win tonight...i have the option to cash out for 490...no one ever went broke making a profit and all that but where is the sweat in that !!..dont know why im asking you degenerates....but, should i cash out ?

[ArmaniJeans]

I wonder what the in-running market will be like. Presumably the initial set of votes will as usual be based on the professional juries who won't all be on the 'poor lickle Ukraine' bandwagon.
So they will largely be scored on merit, which will probably see them not in first place for a long time. Only when the televotes come in will they walk it.
So perhaps there's a betting opportunity there for those of who missed the fancy prices. Or maybe the market is now fully aware of the new system.

[Goodluck2me]

So, IPB Eurovision 2022 Sweep - Lets Rise like a Phoenix with the mudafucka beat.
25 countries participating, going to strike out the fav - Ukraine. Leaves 24 (solid at maths me).

Need 8 players @ €25. Honour based system, no escrow, so only known good eggs need apply.

You will get 3 countries each in a random draw (moderate seeding to prevent anyone getting three 100/1 shots) overseen by me.

Complicated Scoring system - your two lowest scoring countries count, add them together and the lowest overall total scoops the whole pot.
Open to all but much more fun if you will be watching and drunkenly posting as it happens.

And remember - We've Got the World Tonight.

I'll be back about 12.30pm to check on names/numbers, if 8 names are in don't worry - keep adding your name for a second game.

In!

[Dice75]

In for Euro-thingy

[Goodluck2me]

Getting two bathrooms put in all week, quite the amount of banging and dust as to be expected. Should be all done today (although I can see Mrs D3 putting on her 'not quite what I pictured' face), thank fuck, as part 1 of the 'renovate the house from 1972 to 2022' project. Next guy arrives Monday to reconfigure the downstairs layout.

Anyway, so far so boring. There is one guy doing the main bathroom and three guys doing the ensuite. Let's call the one guy Alex, for that is his name. He is an absolute dynamo. Sitting outside in his van from about 7 each morning, even though he says he'll start at 8. Just goes solid through the day. Refuses all offers of tea, coffee, biscuits etc while the three ensuite lads are having a disco party with multiple breaks all day. Offered him a beer last night: "no thank you, I do not drink alcohol." Has about three cigarettes a day and haven't seen him eat.
I'm in awe of this guy. Says he constructs one bathroom a week, works 6/7 days. Give me a hundred of him and you could do anything!

I always think of this when people say there’s great money in trades, the reason most lads I know made F all in trades is that they allergic to work. I’ve a couple mates that went into carpentry and other is an electrician and they’re about 30 now with 10-12 years experience and can absolutely name their price on jobs. They worked their ass off and hire lads much older who just had no drive at all. I don think the “professionalisation” of the trades/apprenticeships would be a great positive for Ireland,

[Dice75]

My 100 bet will return 600 when Ukraine win tonight...i have the option to cash out for 490...no one ever went broke making a profit and all that but where is the sweat in that !!..dont know why im asking you degenerates....but, should i cash out ?

What price are Ukraine to win now??

NVM, 1.42 on betfair. That fucking nuts. Lol the Brits are second favs, who the fuck votes for them.

[Dice75]

On the back of that I have laid the Brits for top 5 @ 1.5 and Top 10 @ 1.19 on a pure blind punt.

Do your stuff Europe.

[dobby]

In for the greatest event of the year AJ. Ty

GFYL

[Mellor]

It's an odd element of this topic that whenever Laz or I argue about it, we become part of the argument. The issues I am arguing are either arguable or not. How I feel about religion has no bearing on that. Pointing to it in this fashion is an attempt to undermine my argument solely by reference to me personally rather than by reference to the arguments I have made. Which is beneath you Mellor.

That’s pretty disingenuous Keith. At no point have I made you part of my argument. I pointed out that your emotions on the topic is leading to you making rushed and ill-formed points. It’s uncharacteristic of you. It was observation, not a argument supporting my position.

To say I haven’t referenced the points you made is a bit unfair.

It's often an error to argue about the accuracy of an analogy as you lose sight of the actual point being made. Perhaps we have both fallen into this trap.

I can fully agree that’s exactly the trap you fell into in your rush to play the “religion is fantasy card”. That was my point.

SP made the school ownership to criticise the RE. I was pointing out his analogy doesn’t actually support his point, it supports the opposite (that doesn’t mean I support the opposite).

If the GAA owned a school and dictated the sporting program then that would be fine because, to the best of my knowledge, the GAA do not generally attempt to alter government policy on women's reproductive rights, who can marry whom etc.

Both of those feel like entirely separate issues. But there have been many national referenda precisely on altering government position on those matters. I’m sure we all had a view.

Are you saying teachers can’t have an opinion on such matters, or only if it matches our stance?

Nor do they tell little children that if they don't confess their sins to a priest that eternal damnation and torment await them.

Yeah religion is crazy.

But what point are you making here? If people want their kids to be raised that way it’s not for us to say otherwise.

I am not dictating to anyone what they should believe. I have repeatedly said people should be free to profess their religion as they see fit. I just don't think that it has a place in a system of education since it is a belief system, not a field of study.

You have repeatedly said that. But it’s not really accurate is it?

Free to do as they see fit - except for ways you disagree with. So in fact that’s not as they see fit then, it’s as you see fit.

I am pretty sure I have never said this. Mostly because I do not believe it. There are almost no private schools in Ireland and the ones we have are (I think) all non-denominational. I have no issues with private schools. I mean, how could I?

Hmm pretty sure? Well I’m 100% sure that you did say it, as I called it out in the last post. I don’t have the exact quote. But you referenced a number of times how it has no place in any school/educational institution. Any school.

You also said that a significant amount of people in favour of it would not support its inclusion in public schools. Hardly democratic.

Whether or not Ireland has private schools is irrelevant. We’re not talking about the currents system. I’m not backing the current system. So attacking it doesn’t counter my point.

I am not telling anyone how to live their lives. I am asking for people not to insist on my children being forced to sit through a religious indoctrination. That seems reasonable enough to me.

Have I suggested at any point that they should be forced to? A bit of a strawman tbh.
I when I support parents’ right to choose how their kids are educated, I include you and your views. Choice is really all I’m supporting.

It's not a clanger Mellor. You read something into my post that was not there. If you want to have that argument - one you'd have a much better chance of arguing successfully - then it won't be with me. I don't care what churches do in the privacy of their own churches (within obvious limits). What I do have a problem with is forcing it on everyone else through a mandatory state-run process like education. I do not understand what the issue is with asking churches to take responsibility for teaching religion. Is this such a radical notion? Is it beyond the competency of a church to teach religion to children effectively? Does it have to be taught alongside maths and history and chemistry as if it was the same thing? Surely a priest would be better at teaching the doctrine of catholicism than anyone else? They are shepherds of their flocks aren't they? Let them shepherd.

Nothing in my post was “within churches”. We’re taking about within schools.

In an attempt to dramatic or whatever you said all schools. As I said, a rushed post, you made some bad points. And this isn’t simply semantic wordplay. It’s pretty fundamental to the debate. It establishes that - People are free are organise churches that align to their beliefs. You seem to concede that above.

Whether or not the state should facilitate that is an separate matter. But should not be based on one view of how the state should operate. The will of the people should be how policies are formed in a democracy.

I do not personally want it there, but if 90% of the country do want it in state schools I’d accept it. As I expect religious people to accept the opposite.

I obvious it’s not as lob-sided as that. Therein lies the issue. I’d like the solution to be a mix of schools for all that align to their choices. Not 100% one way or the other.

[Raoul Duke III]

In

[ArmaniJeans]

1. oleras
2. Strewelpeter
3. Goodluck2me
4. Dice75
5. dobby
6. RD3
7. shrapnel
8.



Probably be 4.30 before I do the draw.

[Wombatman]

Monkeypox ........ Ah here! Leave it out!

[shrapnel]

1. oleras
2. Strewelpeter
3. Goodluck2me
4. Dice75
5. dobby
6. RD3
7.
8.



Probably be 4.30 before I do the draw.

inski!!!!!!!

[shrapnel]

and come on Toulouse!!!

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