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    "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

    Comment


      Originally posted by Opr View Post
      China's surveillance state trumps everything. Alright, other countries are at it just more covertly but the reach and lengths to which it is being used in China is not a road that ends well for anyone.
      The Russkies are no slouches at same either
      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

      Comment


        ...
        "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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          Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

          It is entirely possible. That's not the case here though. It's just a post full of negative adjectives and exaggerated America First ideas. Largely a continuation of the trumpism but rather than praising him praising his ideas.
          Really, I thought he was just pointing out that China and Russia are malign dictatorships?
          "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

          Comment


            Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

            Neither indeed are the five-eyes. Indeed it's well known (was in the Snowdon papers) that all undersea Internet cables coming into Ireland are tapped by five eyes. So that's every single Irish Internet communication.
            Which system of government do you think is the better - democracy or autocracy?
            You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
            World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

            Comment


              Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post

              The Russkies are no slouches at same either
              Are they as technically sophisticated though. Some of the stuff China is doing sends shivers.



              This fucking guy describing the terminator system only it is used for good.

              Comment


                ...
                "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                  seeing as we are on a Simpsons roll

                  Democracies are basically Homer - slow, friendly and unlikely to hurt you deliberately

                  Autocracies are essentially Sideshow Bob - malignant, dangerous and insidiously damaging (in ways you may not even realise)



                  2880723-bob1.jpg
                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                  Comment


                    ...
                    "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                      ...
                      "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                        Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post

                        It's interesting the parallels between Russia and China:

                        Actively annexing territory - check
                        Massive military buildup - check
                        Censorship - check
                        Press freedom denied - check
                        Internet controls - check
                        Violence against minorities\ethnic groups - check
                        Violence against peaceful protestors - check
                        Widespread state-sponsored cheating at sport for propagandistic\nationalist purposes - check
                        Horrendous environmental record - check

                        You can't really say they're the same when it comes to opposition suppression as China doesn't even allow the existence of an opposition. Whereas Russia has both a tame, Putin-controlled fake 'opposition' and a small, almost suicidally brave real one. Anyone stupid enough to actively oppose the Russian government soon learns the realities of life
                        With the exception of the first one (and they do covet Greenland) it could be the US in recent years, to a lesser degree.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                          The point I'm maybe trying to make about China is that Trump has ratcheted up his China rhetoric as it becomes clear he is losing. At the same time you fine right-thinking people have ratcheted up your own China rhetoric. Now maybe you have great independent minds that have uniquely come up with your own negative thoughts about China at the exact same time as Trump. Or maybe you are following the party line of a person, that I'd say most of you except denny, wouldn't trust for any other single factoid.
                          Hang on. You've made an enormous leap here. There's a lot to unpack but let's keep it simple.

                          Trump making a point doesn't render that point unstateable. He regularly says incredibly stupid things. But if he says, for example, "water is wet" and then other people also say it, that does not mean that either (a) water is not actually wet; or, (b) that other people saying it are only doing so because Trump said it.

                          What is more likely is that Trump making a point elevates it in general conversation where the "fine right-thinking people" are then present to make their own entirely legitimate observations. Unless a point is inherently unstateable or wrong, it makes no sense to attribute motive to someone making a point without addressing the substance of the point.

                          I am not sure why you would want to associate a legitimate point made by one person with someone else who makes a similar or even identical point.
                          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                            The point I'm maybe trying to make about China is that Trump has ratcheted up his China rhetoric as it becomes clear he is losing. At the same time you fine right-thinking people have ratcheted up your own China rhetoric. Now maybe you have great independent minds that have uniquely come up with your own negative thoughts about China at the exact same time as Trump. Or maybe you are following the party line of a person, that I'd say most of you except denny, wouldn't trust for any other single factoid.

                            In my posting I'm quite careful to make distinct points. That Russia isn't yet a dictatorship but its going there. That China has some obvious positives to match its obvious negatives. Its not ideology on my part, or misremembered chapters from Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, it's more noting that this idea of clear good and bad is silly and unlikely to be true.
                            So anyone who disagrees with you is either a Trump supporter or we are getting our ideas from fifty year-old novels.
                            That's pretty poor ad homming I have to say.

                            To engage with the little bit of your post that isn't playing the man rather than the ball.

                            Trump is of course attacking China. It's a surefire vote winner for him. Much in the way that being hawkishly anti-communist in the 1950s-80s was.
                            You can see that for what it is, and let's face it, it's pretty fucking transparent but it still doesn't mean that China is therefore automatically absolved of all the appalling behaviours it is engaged in.
                            Trump is a terrible president, a terrible human being and will hopefully be booted out of the WH in November.
                            That doesn't change the simple fact that China is a dictatorship that engages in a very wide range of malignant practices.

                            On the bolded bit, of course that is true. I'm surprised it even needs stating but I guess you are trying to claim that people are engaging in overly-simplistic labelling of countries as 'good' or 'bad'.

                            Every polity is a shade of grey. You would hope the good outweighs the bad but in the cases of Russia and China, they are doing some very serious harms both to their internal populations and externally. I would be very loath to point to economic progress (China) as a mitigating factor for this.
                            "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                              ...
                              "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                              Comment


                                Never mind Russia and China, why is nobody addressing the hitherto unacknowledged power of the Greenland Department of Tourism mafia (which might consist entirely of a walrus and a husky)? Or do we reckon it making it onto the travel green list was a bit of a larf?

                                Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                Not hilariously happy
                                New life goal potential there.

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                                  ...
                                  "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                    sigh out loud. Okay so the people on here claiming that china had invented covid in a lab a few months ago because trump had said that, now suddenly have smart points about china totally unrelated to what trump is saying. Forgive me a bit for doubting the place you are coming from.

                                    Yes indeed trump might say that water is wet and we can agree that water is wet without meaning we are agreeing with him. But making a geopolitical point is a bit different to making a scientific point.

                                    I also don't agree that China is doing harm that outweighs the good. I think what they are doing is claiming their economic space in the world in the interests of their population and this is threatening vested economic interests. If you look at how the Japanese were portrayed in US 1980s films and news media it was the same thing - except in their case the racist portrayal by the US was based on mafia and shadiness assumptions and the idea that they hadn't really paid their war debt. I even remember (rare, but still) Japanese jokes from school. This always happens. It will be the same with the African nations when they start to rise in a few decades. It won't be overt racism, but it'll all essentially revolve around 'those people over there'. Like now making a caricature of the Chinese as servile folk blindly following their dictator and not allowing them their due agency to be able to have worked out that the system right now is working in their interest - just as it worked for their neighbours in South Korea and Taiwan in recent decades.

                                    Also the idea that democracy is always the right system is just simplistic nonsense. It's usually the right system and should be the end goal, but its simply not always the right system at all points in a countries development. Just because a racist psychopath elected by a democracy once made a quote of it being the worst system bar all others doesn't make it true.
                                    need to step away from the kool aid dude... Don't think anyone here claimed that.
                                    No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.

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                                      ...
                                      "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                        "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                          ...
                                          "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                            ...
                                            "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                              ...
                                              "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

                                                There was at least a few weeks of people on here claiming that at around the time that Trump started saying it! Multiple people. Mainly Raoul and Denny, of course, but a few others too. But I'm glad you also agree its ridiculous.
                                                I did no such thing. You're really off the reservation today.
                                                "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                                  The point I'm maybe trying to make about China is that Trump has ratcheted up his China rhetoric as it becomes clear he is losing. At the same time you fine right-thinking people have ratcheted up your own China rhetoric. Now maybe you have great independent minds that have uniquely come up with your own negative thoughts about China at the exact same time as Trump. Or maybe you are following the party line of a person, that I'd say most of you except denny, wouldn't trust for any other single factoid.

                                                  In my posting I'm quite careful to make distinct points. That Russia isn't yet a dictatorship but its going there. That China has some obvious positives to match its obvious negatives. Its not ideology on my part, or misremembered chapters from Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, it's more noting that this idea of clear good and bad is silly and unlikely to be true.
                                                  lol. I've been saying this for years.

                                                  Comment


                                                    I do like that Hitch is pushing the notion that I am peddling Trumpian tropes while at the same time making shit up that wouldn't be out of place in a Trump press conference.
                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                    Comment


                                                      Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

                                                      There's just so much tabloid fantasy here I'm not even going to bother.

                                                      I was saying your specific repeated point that it was wrong to apply the Nazi analogy at all. Remember back when you were hero-worshipping the stormtrooper-sending racial purist president?
                                                      What exactly about it is tabloid fantasy?

                                                      The camps are fantasy? Or the sterilisations? Or the skirmishes on the Indian border? Or the island atolls? Or its crackdown on HK? What part of its foreign policy bodes well for the future?

                                                      Comment


                                                        Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

                                                        There was at least a few weeks of people on here claiming that at around the time that Trump started saying it! Multiple people. Mainly Raoul and Denny, of course, but a few others too. But I'm glad you also agree its ridiculous.
                                                        Jesus Hitch, seriously stop. The two posts you quoted never said that it was a chinese conspiracy. Both posts were clear and nuanced in how they addressed the point. And precisely as I said it's clear that they discussed the point because it was in public conversation. Did Trump start that? Yes. Does that mean either Denny or Raoul think he's right, or even said that he's right? No.

                                                        You're really not grasping this at all man.
                                                        You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                        World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

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                                                          Btw I fully support Hitch in everything he has said and how he has said it, and urge fellow neutral IPB'ers to support him from the Axis powers lining up against him.

                                                          Comment


                                                            Originally posted by Lao Lao View Post

                                                            How does this bit play out currently?

                                                            I've been that soldier doing the 70+ hours per week before and I could never in a million years describe it as an unreal lifestyle regardless of where I was based. No matter which way you split it up (7x10 hours days or 5x14 hour days), it was always hellish and at the end of work each day, I'd have zero energy for anything other than sleep.

                                                            If doing 5 x 14 hour days, you're starting work at 8am and finishing at 10pm? which gives you 4 hours to have dinner, try unwind before getting 6 hours sleep before you go again.

                                                            If doing the 7 x 10 hour days, that's no day off at all and has to wear you down at some point, even if you love what you do.

                                                            It's great if it works for you and hopefully, it is only short term but am curious to how the lifestyle is working so well with those kind of hours?
                                                            Jeez on count back 70 is an exaggeration alright! It's more a case of my work day spanning the entire stretch from about 9am to midnight due to the nature of the work I do and the stage of the project we're at. It's not continuous but I'm always on to some extent for the moment including weekends.

                                                            It's actually not so bad from the point of view that I can get out and about during the day for exercise or errands but when I'm home I'll be doing bits and pieces every waking hour.

                                                            It's part of the work cycle for me that you end up with three months like this every two years or so. Most of the time it's flexible with a good work/life balance.

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                                                              Originally posted by hotspur View Post
                                                              Btw I fully support Hitch in everything he has said and how he has said it, and urge fellow neutral IPB'ers to support him from the Axis powers lining up against him.
                                                              You too shall be crushed beneath our remorseless jackboots of logical and factual tyranny.

                                                              Consider yourself to be Denmark or Norway in 1940.

                                                              "Well they would never do anything to us...we're nice, everyone likes us. Plus we're small and cute."

                                                              STOMP
                                                              "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                              Comment


                                                                @rdIII three great new words to add to the lexicon there, haven’t used Maldroit before, only it’s antonym.

                                                                i think Hitch, RD, Denny and Kayroo would enjoy a book called “Democrisis” written by David Roche on the role of democracy and it’s relationship with a country’s stage of development. Generally states you need a middle class to have a democracy or it doesn’t work optimally.

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                                                                  Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post

                                                                  I did no such thing. You're really off the reservation today.
                                                                  Pretty sure that phrase is considered offensive these days. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...-be-off-limits

                                                                  Rob Capriccioso, citizen of the Sault Tribe of Chippewa Indians, and Washington D.C. Bureau Chief for Indian Country Today writes:
                                                                  "I bristle when I hear the phrase because many of the people who use it nonchalantly have likely never thought about its origin, nor have they probably ever visited a reservation."
                                                                  Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.

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                                                                    Originally posted by Goodluck2me View Post
                                                                    @rdIII three great new words to add to the lexicon there, haven’t used Maldroit before, only it’s antonym.

                                                                    i think Hitch, RD, Denny and Kayroo would enjoy a book called “Democrisis” written by David Roche on the role of democracy and it’s relationship with a country’s stage of development. Generally states you need a middle class to have a democracy or it doesn’t work optimally.

                                                                    https://www.amazon.com/Democrisis-Da.../dp/1471751651
                                                                    Yikes that sounds terribly Euro\Amero-centric as a concept. Don't like it as a central thesis at all.

                                                                    There are successfully democratic poor countries.Like go round the world, and take Costa Rica, India, Botswana and Baltic former Soviets for example, just off the top of my head.
                                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                      Originally posted by ComradeCollie View Post

                                                                      Pretty sure that phrase is considered offensive these days. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...-be-off-limits
                                                                      Next you'll be telling me I can't compliment racial groups for being good at maths
                                                                      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                        Hitch on China committing a mass genocide of the Uighurs:
                                                                        'Well there were some Uighur terrorists before' - they were kind of asking for it
                                                                        'It just shows China are serious' - makes it sound more like a professional operation
                                                                        'It's clear China have the best interests of the people at heart'


                                                                        I think it's clear that China have the best interests of anyone who doesn't step out of line, at heart. So no Uighurs, pro-democracy demonstrators or anyone who criticizes the government in any way.

                                                                        I also would not assume just because one criticizes China does that mean they support the US. The US is actually a bigger threat imo given they bomb the hell out any country they feel like and there's always another illegal coup around the corner for any country that doesn't line up behind them.

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                                                                          Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post

                                                                          Yikes that sounds terribly Euro\Amero-centric as a concept. Don't like it as a central thesis at all.

                                                                          There are successfully democratic poor countries.Like go round the world, and take Costa Rica, India, Botswana and Baltic former Soviets for example, just off the top of my head.
                                                                          Recommended it based on the fact it covers the topics at hand almost exactly as argued. He’s a Brit that spend huge amounts of time in Asia as MS global strategist, a good speaker and clear writer. Read it 6-7 years ago so it’s not crystal clear in memory.


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                                                                            Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

                                                                            You'll have to take that up with the Pew Research Center then. That's their estimation, as I think quite respected independent actors, that Russia is currently a hybrid of democracy and authoritarism. Although I'm sure your books on what Russia was like a hundred years ago have given you a unique insight that their 200 professional full-time political researchers have missed.
                                                                            Being a “hybrid” of democracy and authoritarianism doesn’t imply the two are close to equal or even affect all aspects of government.

                                                                            They have a parliament, with independents, oppositions, bills are submitted, debated, amended, and passed or rejected. In that instance it’s democracy.
                                                                            But only because it’s left to look after trivial day to day matters.

                                                                            The power, and the control is authoritarian.
                                                                            After going through the charade of a few elevations, even Putin isn’t bothered pretending. He announced earlier the constitution needs to be revised earlier this year. Handy power to have while on our last term constitutionally.
                                                                            Bur luckily, some MP “suggest” to the lower house that they should reset Putin’s term to zero. To which he acknowledged that it would technically be possible...if the people wished it were so.

                                                                            The allusion to the people is about as far as democracy goes on the latter front.

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                                                                              Originally posted by Mellor View Post

                                                                              Being a “hybrid” of democracy and authoritarianism doesn’t imply the two are close to equal or even affect all aspects of government.

                                                                              They have a parliament, with independents, oppositions, bills are submitted, debated, amended, and passed or rejected. In that instance it’s democracy.
                                                                              But only because it’s left to look after trivial day to day matters.

                                                                              The power, and the control is authoritarian.
                                                                              After going through the charade of a few elevations, even Putin isn’t bothered pretending. He announced earlier the constitution needs to be revised earlier this year. Handy power to have while on our last term constitutionally.
                                                                              Bur luckily, some MP “suggest” to the lower house that they should reset Putin’s term to zero. To which he acknowledged that it would technically be possible...if the people wished it were so.

                                                                              The allusion to the people is about as far as democracy goes on the latter front.
                                                                              you do have to appreciate the "well, if the people are really asking me to be their dictator for life....and after all we Russians are used to such a system....then I suppose I selflessly have no choice but to bow to the people's wishes...democratically expressed of course"
                                                                              "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                                ...
                                                                                "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                  I think the irony of China's economic success is that it has given the Communist Party the financial means to strengthen and intensify all the many forms of oppression that they employ against their own people. And indeed beyond their own borders.

                                                                                  So in this case, increased economic well-being has actually led to worse repression and increased loss of the human rights we take for granted.
                                                                                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                    I think the irony of China's economic success is that it has given the Communist Party the financial means to strengthen and intensify all the many forms of oppression that they employ against their own people. And indeed beyond their own borders.

                                                                                    So in this case, increased economic well-being has actually led to worse repression and increased loss of the human rights we take for granted.
                                                                                    Actually another aspect to this Chinese financial muscle; they can literally buy other countries.

                                                                                    Last year, there was a letter sent to the UN condemning Chinese repression in Xinjiang. Signed by 22 countries, all of whom would be regarded as being in the vanguard of human rights
                                                                                    Lo and behold, 4 days later,a competing letter appeared - signed by 50 countries. Compliementing China on its unparalleled achievements in the fields of human rights. Well done China.

                                                                                    Check out the signatories below:

                                                                                    Signatories.png
                                                                                    "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                                      Weather's not great for July

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                                                                                        ...
                                                                                        "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                          Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

                                                                                          Yeah. I'm not sure you know what a genocide is.

                                                                                          Tl;Dr you can google big words if you don't understand them
                                                                                          Eh... Chinese policies against the Uyghurs meets the UN definition of genocide. So... how is it not genocide?

                                                                                          Do you know what a genocide is?
                                                                                          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

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                                                                                            ...
                                                                                            Last edited by Hitchhiker's Guide To...; 22-07-20, 19:14.
                                                                                            "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                              Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

                                                                                              While I commend you for reading the headline of the very first google search result for the keywords: Uighur and genocide; theres maybe a bit more to it actually being genocide than a few Western media pieces saying it is so. Hence presumably why the UN hasn't said this themselves - or even tried to say this (accounting for the China veto). Which you would think would be the more compelling support for it actually being the case - if the UN agreed that it met their definition. Something which is very unlikely to happen as the idea of 'cultural' genocide doesn't have any international legal status as its so vague an idea.
                                                                                              Your point being?

                                                                                              Your whole argument is insane. You don't get into the merits of the report of Dr. Zenz and the Foreign Affairs piece, you just say that it's not enough to be genocide. You don't engage with a legitimate criticism of your view, you attack cardshark's definition of genocide.

                                                                                              This is the sort of reasoning used by Soviet-era Russians sometimes referred to as "And you are hanging blacks". It doesn't excuse the Chinese to give out about how the US treats their prison population. That is not an answer to the point. I mean, are you comfortable defending an authoritarian autocracy that uses forced sterilisation and "education camps"?
                                                                                              You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                              World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

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                                                                                                ...
                                                                                                "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                                  Ok so you're not engaging with the point at all.

                                                                                                  Let's get some things straight. The Bar Human Rights Committee of England and Wales published this report recently


                                                                                                  In it they point to a great number of sources pointing towards a genocide in China as well as torture, religious discrimination and forced sterilisation (among other atrocities). Feel free to scroll through them and tell me how the UN not calling it a genocide means everything is fine.

                                                                                                  Classified Chinese communications obtained by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists known as the "China Cables". Have a read about it here: https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/

                                                                                                  The reason that we don't have hard evidence about the genocide? China is the world's leading surveillance state and prevents anyone getting the info.

                                                                                                  You are arguing like an intentional internet troll. I'd give you credit for that except you seem to actually believe what you're saying. Albeit, you've never actually attempted to defend China. Just to attack anyone who criticises China. Which is frankly bizarre.
                                                                                                  You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                                  World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                                                                                    I think the irony of China's economic success is that it has given the Communist Party the financial means to strengthen and intensify all the many forms of oppression that they employ against their own people. And indeed beyond their own borders..
                                                                                                    Where is the oppression beyond their own borders going on?
                                                                                                    Turning millions into thousands

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                                                                                                      Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
                                                                                                      Also your "happiness" test is incredibly poor. Generally people living in autocratic regimes have very high satisfaction ratings with their governments. North Koreans absolutely love their government... Again, the number of people who subscribe to an idea or a form of government is not indicative of its value.
                                                                                                      Reminds me of the guy from the Nursing homes association whose only defence of his sector was that all those residents who survived said they were very nice to them and were getting great care
                                                                                                      Turning millions into thousands

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                                                                                                        "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                                          "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                                            Can we take a moment to reflect on the people who will have their premises ransacked in Liverpool tonight .

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                                                                                                              Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                                                              Anyone watched Money Heist? Mrs has me watching it and on EP4 and losing interest
                                                                                                              ...My opinion usually has a negative effect, but I think its definitely worth keeping up with, 1st 2 parts (seasons) are brilliant imo...

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                                                                                                                Originally posted by luckforsome View Post

                                                                                                                ...My opinion usually has a negative effect...
                                                                                                                That's an interesting statement, can you expand on it. (Btw because I snipped your post mid sentence I added a "..." at the end for you)

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                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                                                                                                  That's the big part of 1984, the book. The war with the unknown Far East. Russians are spies, Chinese are going to take your job, Mexicans are rapists, Jews control the worlds money. Its all playing in the same field, just different degrees.
                                                                                                                  The big part of 1984 is how awful Authoritarian regimes are. The propaganda about foreign enemies is a symptom, not the cause.


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                                                                                                                    I may be a bit slow but cant get my head around this looming pension crisis, rather, the solution. They tell us at the moment its roughly 5/1 worker to pensioner and in 20 years will be 2/1. They want to push the retirement age to say 70.

                                                                                                                    Does this not literally kick the can down the road and instead of a crisis in 20 years its now 25 years ?
                                                                                                                    This too shall pass.

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                                                                                                                      Originally posted by oleras View Post
                                                                                                                      I may be a bit slow but cant get my head around this looming pension crisis, rather, the solution. They tell us at the moment its roughly 5/1 worker to pensioner and in 20 years will be 2/1. They want to push the retirement age to say 70.

                                                                                                                      Does this not literally kick the can down the road and instead of a crisis in 20 years its now 25 years ?
                                                                                                                      It doesn't solve the crisis, but it mitigates it. One of the major problems with pensions is that people now live for twenty or thirty years longer than they used to, on average. So pension funds earn less money than they used to, but they are supposed to pay for peoples pensions for a longer time period. If you can extend the time people are paying into pensions and decrease the time they are receiving pensions its a big win.

                                                                                                                      That said, this whole situation is one that politicians have and will continue to kick down the road because it won't be a problem within their elected term. Dammnit maybe Hitch is right! (just a joke, he isn't)

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                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

                                                                                                                        It doesn't solve the crisis, but it mitigates it. One of the major problems with pensions is that people now live for twenty or thirty years longer than they used to, on average. So pension funds earn less money than they used to, but they are supposed to pay for peoples pensions for a longer time period. If you can extend the time people are paying into pensions and decrease the time they are receiving pensions its a big win.

                                                                                                                        That said, this whole situation is one that politicians have and will continue to kick down the road because it won't be a problem within their elected term. Dammnit maybe Hitch is right! (just a joke, he isn't)
                                                                                                                        You're talking about funded pensions there (which is a huge problem in itself). At least if your pension is funded, you have some personal control over your future retirement. For example, I can completely retire at 50 if I want to. I won't, but 60 certainly seems like a very viable target.

                                                                                                                        Unfunded pensions i.e. the public sector and the standard OAP are an even bigger problem as they are paid for out of current spending. That's even more unsustainable than what you outline above, and for the reasons you outline (people living longer, ratio of working to retired to increasing). I think anyone middle-aged or younger who thinks the same level of unfunded pension provision as what is currently available will be around in their retirement is completely deluded. A point I think our resident pensions expert has made many times....
                                                                                                                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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                                                                                                                          "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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