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    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

    Nope, that's ridiculous. Your pal Trump. Hopefully it doesn't work. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-were-in-2016/
    What's ridiculous? The riots are in blue cities in blue states. The mayors who won't police the riots are all Democrats. The police commissioners that oversaw the needless escalation at the start of all this were all Democrat appointees. The rioters are (notwithstanding some evidence of outside agitators) far left activists. The protestors who tolerate violence on their own side are still turning up every day despite the fact their "peaceful protests" turn into riots every single night. The journalists repeatedly gaslighting their audience by claiming there's no riots at all are at left wing outlets. The far right are turning up because they've been whipped up into a frenzy seeing images of burning buildings every night and no action being taken. I'm in both left wing and right wing circles and everyone is stewing for a barney, celebrating violence on their own side and screaming bloody murder about it on the other.

    Biden has already condemned violence on both sides, but he'll have a hard time convincing America that he's not just saying that. What he really needs is cowards like Ted Wheeler to step up and shut this mess down before it really kicks off. It will of course be career suicide for Wheeler so Biden will have to engage in some serious maneuvering to fix this. And ff he gets elected he'll have a right job keeping the crazies happy without alienating the rest of the country.

    Trump will capitalise on all this by claiming the far left are out of control, the Democrats have coddled them for too long, are secretly supportive of them etc etc. And of course he's got the solution... This will appeal very strongly to a lot of middle America. I just hope he's done too much bullshit to win back enough of them.
    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

    Comment


      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

      Ignore the outrage and take a step back to think. Do you see the problem that using a term that refers to the systematic murder of people for the colour of their skin, a practice that occurred recently and has many modern-day equivalents, with the pressure on a politician to step down from a role into a comfortable pension?
      It's just a phrase m8, stop problematising everything.
      "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

      Comment


        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

        Ignore the outrage and take a step back to think. Do you see the problem that using a term that refers to the systematic murder of people for the colour of their skin, a practice that occurred recently and has many modern-day equivalents, with the pressure on a politician to step down from a role into a comfortable pension?
        No, thats bollox tbh. We’re not robots that need to watch every word for fear of offending the multitudes that Spend all day waiting for a chance to be outraged. This whole nonsense of trying to reduce the language we use to blandness and impotent murmurings...though that probably offends the brothers of the flaccid penis group or something...Is nonsense.

        I dread to think what the world will look like in 30-50 years with everyone spending all their time hand wringing and afraid to speak for fear of causing offense to someone.

        anyway, Before we start, i’m not getting dragged any further into this I’ll not change your mind, you won’t change mine and I can’t be arsed wasting the time and effort to get into a back and forth.




        Join the IPB Fantasy Football League 19/20

        http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...88#post1104188

        Comment


          More importantly, everyone sign up for FPL, something worth fighting over
          Join the IPB Fantasy Football League 19/20

          http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...88#post1104188

          Comment


            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

            Ignore the outrage and take a step back to think. Do you see the problem that using a term that refers to the systematic murder of people for the colour of their skin, a practice that occurred recently and has many modern-day equivalents, with the pressure on a politician to step down from a role into a comfortable pension?
            When outrage and political capital is used on things like this, people get fatigued and stop listening.

            Comment


              If a crowd decides that an often used word is no longer to be used, for valid reasons, then the first step is not to have thousands of people declare a user of that phrase a racist, but rather to politely note that it's best not to use that term. There's nothing wrong with the point about the phrase, there's something wrong with how those people acted.
              "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

              Comment


                It was a perfectly reasonable long-standing journalist, not someone who 'accidentally' uses dog whistle terms.
                "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Iago View Post

                  No, thats bollox tbh. We’re not robots that need to watch every word for fear of offending the multitudes that Spend all day waiting for a chance to be outraged. This whole nonsense of trying to reduce the language we use to blandness and impotent murmurings...though that probably offends the brothers of the flaccid penis group or something...Is nonsense.

                  I dread to think what the world will look like in 30-50 years with everyone spending all their time hand wringing and afraid to speak for fear of causing offense to someone.

                  anyway, Before we start, i’m not getting dragged any further into this I’ll not change your mind, you won’t change mine and I can’t be arsed wasting the time and effort to get into a back and forth.

                  You make a very good point, and it's easy for people to get carried away with more marginal cases, but I really don't think the term Lynch Mob is one of them. Can you imagine how Irish people would feel about the term had the Irish people been the victims of Lynch mobs? Can you think about the visceral impact the term might have on someone who had a family member lynched?



                  Comment


                    Scrolled by a tweet last week from a guy talking about how he always opens biscuits the same way, he mentioned OCD. A mildly humorous tweet.

                    The following day I read a tweet from him apologising profusely for it because somebody commented that they found it offensive as their sister has OCD.

                    It has gone beyond ridiculous at this stage.

                    Last edited by Lazare; 31-08-20, 20:12.
                    I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                      If a crowd decides that an often used word is no longer to be used, for valid reasons, then the first step is not to have thousands of people declare a user of that phrase a racist, but rather to politely note that it's best not to use that term. There's nothing wrong with the point about the phrase, there's something wrong with how those people acted.
                      Agreed

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

                        You make a very good point, and it's easy for people to get carried away with more marginal cases, but I really don't think the term Lynch Mob is one of them. Can you imagine how Irish people would feel about the term had the Irish people been the victims of Lynch mobs? Can you think about the visceral impact the term might have on someone who had a family member lynched?


                        My next door neighbours when I was a kid were a family called the Lynches. We always called them The Lynch Mob.

                        I now feel shame and regret.
                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post

                          What's ridiculous? The riots are in blue cities in blue states. The mayors who won't police the riots are all Democrats. The police commissioners that oversaw the needless escalation at the start of all this were all Democrat appointees. The rioters are (notwithstanding some evidence of outside agitators) far left activists. The protestors who tolerate violence on their own side are still turning up every day despite the fact their "peaceful protests" turn into riots every single night. The journalists repeatedly gaslighting their audience by claiming there's no riots at all are at left wing outlets. The far right are turning up because they've been whipped up into a frenzy seeing images of burning buildings every night and no action being taken. I'm in both left wing and right wing circles and everyone is stewing for a barney, celebrating violence on their own side and screaming bloody murder about it on the other.

                          Biden has already condemned violence on both sides, but he'll have a hard time convincing America that he's not just saying that. What he really needs is cowards like Ted Wheeler to step up and shut this mess down before it really kicks off. It will of course be career suicide for Wheeler so Biden will have to engage in some serious maneuvering to fix this. And ff he gets elected he'll have a right job keeping the crazies happy without alienating the rest of the country.

                          Trump will capitalise on all this by claiming the far left are out of control, the Democrats have coddled them for too long, are secretly supportive of them etc etc. And of course he's got the solution... This will appeal very strongly to a lot of middle America. I just hope he's done too much bullshit to win back enough of them.
                          Some of that is very interesting. I think where we would differ is that I wouldn't put "peaceful" protesting on a pedestal. I believe the protests don't happen in a vacuum, the angrier people get the more likely they are to turn to violence. And the anger comes from both the issues at hand and violent policing.

                          In any case we can agree that Trump will do his best to use it to his advantage. On the plus side at least he isn't threatening to nuke somewhere - which in some different reality is definitely happening.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

                            Ignore the outrage and take a step back to think. Do you see the problem that using a term that refers to the systematic murder of people for the colour of their skin, a practice that occurred recently and has many modern-day equivalents, with the pressure on a politician to step down from a role into a comfortable pension?
                            The problem is, that’s not what lynching means.
                            Lynching is extra-judicial killing by a group, typically a public mob. Race it not a factor in the meaning of the word. The term goes back to the American revolution to a Judge Lynch would would round up and sentence loyalist without trial, although not typically execution.

                            That meaning developed when mobs began killing suspects without trial. The early victims were predominantly white. Obviously, black victims became the victimised majority later. But it’s a bit much to redefine the word to a representation of that group only*.


                            *As Hitch suggested above, if we collectively decide that’s it should no linger be used due to the history of lynching, that’s fine also. But that needs to be decided and implemented first rather than acting like it’s been the case all along.
                            Last edited by Mellor; 31-08-20, 14:03.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Mellor View Post

                              The problem is, that’s not what lynching means.
                              Lynching is extra-judicial killing by a group, typically a public mob. Race it not a factor in the meaning of the word. The term goes back to the American revolution to a Judge Lynch would would round up and sentence loyalist without trial, although not typically execution.

                              That meaning developed when mobs began killing suspects without trial. The early victims were predominantly white. Obviously, black victims became the victimised majority later. But it’s a bit much to redefine the word to a representation of that group only*.


                              *As Hitch suggested above, if we collectively decide that’s it should no linger be used due to the history of lynching, that’s fine also. But that needs to be decided and implemented first rather than acting like it’s been the case all along.
                              Who do you think is going to decide and implement it? How does it get decided?

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                I saw fervent outrage, frotting at the teeth outrage, at the end of last week accusing an Irish Times journalist of racism for saying there was a 'lynch mob' after Phil Hogan. Apparently that was co-opting the suffering of black people. So lets not pretend that lefties are not their own worst enemies. The sooner the election the better really.
                                Your spelling mistakes are getting more bizarre.

                                TOP DEFINITION
                                frotting
                                Rubbing/holding/masturbating two penises together for sexual pleasure. Usually, both men stand or lie down facing each other so that the undersides of both penises touch along their entire length, allowing one person to masturbate both penises simultaneously.
                                https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...?term=frotting
                                Person...Woman...Man......Camera..TV

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

                                  Who do you think is going to decide and implement it? How does it get decided?
                                  We are, IPB.

                                  To be serious for a second, you also need to consider context. If a journalist was saying there was a 'lynch mob after Phil Hogan', I really don't think she\he had a any racial connotation in mind whatsoever.
                                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                    If a crowd decides that an often used word is no longer to be used, for valid reasons, then the first step is not to have thousands of people declare a user of that phrase a racist, but rather to politely note that it's best not to use that term. There's nothing wrong with the point about the phrase, there's something wrong with how those people acted.
                                    Thats the main point, but outrage is on trend. There needs to be a period of time where we educate people on phrases/words we feel are outdated for racist or other origins, rather than send the lynch mob after them straight away. But that doesnt feed the outrage. And the only punishment for a slip up seems to be complete public shame via the internet/ lose career if applicable.
                                    airport, lol

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

                                      Who do you think is going to decide and implement it? How does it get decided?
                                      The public generally. Collective majority agreement. As has happened with many words previously. For example the word retard is seen as less acceptable despite its medical origin.
                                      Its not a instantaneous or automatic as soon as anyone claims it’s redefined though. Some people claim that imbecile and moron are off limits too. Or that everyday expressions “long time no see” and ”no can do” are racist (which was news to me tbh).

                                      Maybe this is the start of lynching being off-limited. But political motives would have to be removed before anyone can be taken seriously.

                                      Comment


                                        Has anyone read any of Jordan Petersons books and would they care to give a quick review.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by dinekes View Post
                                          Has anyone read any of Jordan Petersons books and would they care to give a quick review.
                                          I listened to the Audible version of his 12 Rules one which he read himself and it was bizarre and garbage.

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

                                            Who do you think is going to decide and implement it? How does it get decided?
                                            exactly

                                            Can it not be taken that lynch mob is strictly defined as "a band of people intent on lynching someone" (and lynch defined as "kill (someone) for an alleged offence without a legal trial, especially by hanging"? Who decides what connotations are associated with a word or phrase?
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                                            Comment


                                              Jordan Peterson - How did a man with such an irritating voice become popular through podcasting and talking to sold out venues? Nails on a chalk board to me. Thus I know very little about him and it seems like that is a win.

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by ComradeCollie View Post

                                                Your spelling mistakes are getting more bizarre.

                                                https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...?term=frotting
                                                oh dear!
                                                "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                Comment


                                                  Is Twitter that bad. I hear terms such as "Twitter outrage" "Mob rule" etc bandied about which would seem to indicate that some people attribute a negative connotation at having an opinion on that forum. Dont have an account myself but feel it's worth noting that one can share an opinion with someone else or a number of people but for different reasons. Yet when someone opposes that opinion they can just lump you in with the the morally outraged baying mob.
                                                  Seems like a lazy way to discredit a considered stance on something.

                                                  Also the emotive language used in arguments is interesting
                                                  "criminally incompetent" "baying for blood" "penis rubbing"
                                                  Obviously intended to be more persuasive.
                                                  Might do an exercise sometime and edit a few posts taking out all the emotive language to see the impact.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Keane View Post

                                                    I listened to the Audible version of his 12 Rules one which he read himself and it was bizarre and garbage.
                                                    Just came across a few You Tube bits and he seemed to be making sense or at least doing better than the interviewer.
                                                    Loses me a bit with the terminology "post modern xyz's" etc which puts me off a bit.

                                                    Comment


                                                      Originally posted by dinekes View Post
                                                      Is Twitter that bad. I hear terms such as "Twitter outrage" "Mob rule" etc bandied about which would seem to indicate that some people attribute a negative connotation at having an opinion on that forum. Dont have an account myself but feel it's worth noting that one can share an opinion with someone else or a number of people but for different reasons. Yet when someone opposes that opinion they can just lump you in with the the morally outraged baying mob.
                                                      Seems like a lazy way to discredit a considered stance on something.

                                                      Also the emotive language used in arguments is interesting
                                                      "criminally incompetent" "baying for blood" "penis rubbing"
                                                      Obviously intended to be more persuasive.
                                                      Might do an exercise sometime and edit a few posts taking out all the emotive language to see the impact.
                                                      nuance is key and it's hard to do on twitter. Short snappy takes sell better, but complicated matters usually need more discussion. I think this leads to a lot of lumping opinions under one umbrella. I agree, it's generally a lazy approach.
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                                                      Comment


                                                        Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                        The public generally. Collective majority agreement. As has happened with many words previously. For example the word retard is seen as less acceptable despite its medical origin.
                                                        Its not a instantaneous or automatic as soon as anyone claims it’s redefined though. Some people claim that imbecile and moron are off limits too. Or that everyday expressions “long time no see” and ”no can do” are racist (which was news to me tbh).

                                                        Maybe this is the start of lynching being off-limited. But political motives would have to be removed before anyone can be taken seriously.
                                                        This wasn't the start of the word being off-limited, it's just the first time the journalist became aware of it.

                                                        Here is a similar case where Robert Benmosche, the CEO of AIG apologised for using the term. In 2013


                                                        https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...=1598889210953


                                                        My point is that this is a messy process - there is not a clear dividing line that where a word goes from being acceptable to not; or who decides. And words remain, hanging around. Part of the process now is outrage. It clearly isn't an ideal process, but given there is literally no effective alternative that's what we are stuck with.

                                                        Edit: just to add that this is a difficult process for everyone.
                                                        Last edited by Hectorjelly; 31-08-20, 16:01.

                                                        Comment


                                                          Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post

                                                          exactly

                                                          Can it not be taken that lynch mob is strictly defined as "a band of people intent on lynching someone" (and lynch defined as "kill (someone) for an alleged offence without a legal trial, especially by hanging"? Who decides what connotations are associated with a word or phrase?
                                                          When I said, "Who decides?" My implicit conclusion wasn't everyone should just say what they want.

                                                          Comment


                                                            Originally posted by dinekes View Post
                                                            Has anyone read any of Jordan Petersons books and would they care to give a quick review.
                                                            His 12 Rules for Life is an exceptional book. I can't speak to the Audible experience of it, but some books need to be read and I imagine this is one of them as I would pause and reflect a lot while reading it. I have the highest respect for his mind, and consider him a deeply ethical thinker.

                                                            Comment


                                                              12 rules is brilliant. He just gets on a slightly odd detour when he talks about religion, but its a very smart book.
                                                              "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                              Comment


                                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post

                                                                When I said, "Who decides?" My implicit conclusion wasn't everyone should just say what they want.
                                                                but who does decide? And when? And who gets to decide on interpretation of other's words?

                                                                If one associates the phrase "lynch mob" with the systematic murder of people for the colour of their skin, is that the fault of the person who uses the term?
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                                                                Comment


                                                                  I've invested, like all cool kids, in the nations favourite breadmaker. A stunning 4.8/5 rating from over 1500 reviews on Amazon. Can't seem to find anything other than the most basic flour in the local Tescos, Odlums plain white. Where would one source the good stuff? Strong flour, I think its called. Is it maybe that you need to go to a specialist place or just a bigger supermarket? Just a nice big flour shop: a flour emporium? Flour me up, people.
                                                                  "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    Originally posted by hotspur View Post

                                                                    His 12 Rules for Life is an exceptional book. I can't speak to the Audible experience of it, but some books need to be read and I imagine this is one of them as I would pause and reflect a lot while reading it. I have the highest respect for his mind, and consider him a deeply ethical thinker.
                                                                    The points he was making in the clips I saw seemed sound logically. Will investigate further.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                                                      I've invested, like all cool kids, in the nations favourite breadmaker. A stunning 4.8/5 rating from over 1500 reviews on Amazon. Can't seem to find anything other than the most basic flour in the local Tescos, Odlums plain white. Where would one source the good stuff? Strong flour, I think its called. Is it maybe that you need to go to a specialist place or just a bigger supermarket? Just a nice big flour shop: a flour emporium? Flour me up, people.
                                                                      Haven't been able to source strong flour since the start of the pandemic. Down to the last bag of my stockpile.
                                                                      Person...Woman...Man......Camera..TV

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post

                                                                        but who does decide? And when? And who gets to decide on interpretation of other's words?

                                                                        If one associates the phrase "lynch mob" with the systematic murder of people for the colour of their skin, is that the fault of the person who uses the term?
                                                                        Personally, I would have thought 'lynch mob' these days means 'a bunch of gobshites moaning on social media'.

                                                                        That would be the first meaning I would assign to it. Then maybe the historical one.


                                                                        Same as if someone says 'you're looking very gay today'. Do you assume they mean a term that was commonplace as 'colourful' in the past, or something more modern?


                                                                        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          Originally posted by hotspur View Post

                                                                          His 12 Rules for Life is an exceptional book. I can't speak to the Audible experience of it, but some books need to be read and I imagine this is one of them as I would pause and reflect a lot while reading it. I have the highest respect for his mind, and consider him a deeply ethical thinker.
                                                                          I will never understand this from you. The man advocated a meat, salt and water only diet. Claiming it cured depression and that he “never cheated” on it. The rapid onset of scurvy, among many other things, apparently doesn’t affect the deeply ethical thinkers.

                                                                          The man is a dangerous quack. As we discussed before, I cannot speak to his expertise in his own field. He may be a world class mind there. But outside that all evidence suggests he is full of nonsense and half-thought out drivel dressed up as intellectual gold.
                                                                          You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                          World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post

                                                                            Personally, I would have thought 'lynch mob' these days means 'a bunch of gobshites moaning on social media'.

                                                                            That would be the first meaning I would assign to it. Then maybe the historical one.


                                                                            Same as if someone says 'you're looking very gay today'. Do you assume they mean a term that was commonplace as 'colourful' in the past, or something more modern?

                                                                            so would I. But I don't think people should be held accountable to other's interpretations of their words. If something is clear cut, fair enough, but condemning people based on inferences is dicey territory imo.
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                                                                            Comment


                                                                              Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
                                                                              12 rules is brilliant. He just gets on a slightly odd detour when he talks about religion, but its a very smart book.
                                                                              Its and odd detour all right.
                                                                              Think of all the forced hours spent in Mass and school classes!
                                                                              At least 10 years going on Sunday (at gunpoint practically)
                                                                              Could have been learning a language or a new sport or perchance a new musical instrument (while a new language might have been at gunpoint too it would have at least some utility now)

                                                                              PS
                                                                              Was in a band for 2 weeks, Summer of 85. Parents and siblings all away for 2 whole weeks and had the house to myself. Unheard of normally as I am the youngest of 9.
                                                                              Weren't too bad actually. Could have made it big if it hadn'tbeen for all those wasted hours praying to ..eh..make it big

                                                                              Last edited by dinekes; 31-08-20, 17:46.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                                                                                I will never understand this from you. The man advocated a meat, salt and water only diet. Claiming it cured depression and that he “never cheated” on it. The rapid onset of scurvy, among many other things, apparently doesn’t affect the deeply ethical thinkers.

                                                                                The man is a dangerous quack. As we discussed before, I cannot speak to his expertise in his own field. He may be a world class mind there. But outside that all evidence suggests he is full of nonsense and half-thought out drivel dressed up as intellectual gold.
                                                                                Any recommendations of books on presenting and critically analysing an argument.
                                                                                Have read "Straight and crooked thinking" a long time ago.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  Originally posted by ComradeCollie View Post

                                                                                  Haven't been able to source strong flour since the start of the pandemic. Down to the last bag of my stockpile.
                                                                                  Where were you getting it before?
                                                                                  "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Originally posted by dinekes View Post

                                                                                    Any recommendations of books on presenting and critically analysing an argument.
                                                                                    Have read "Straight and crooked thinking" a long time ago.
                                                                                    I’m not sure there’s a single book I would recommend. It’s mostly about learning to avoid and identify logical flaws and fallacies. So any decent book on formal logic would be a good start. AC Grayling has a wonderful book on the history of philosophy which I think was imaginatively called “The History of Philosophy”. Daniel Kahnemann’s book “Thinking Fast and Slow” isn’t 100% what you’re looking for but it’s excellent and deals with logical and cognitive failings and flaws.

                                                                                    Maybe something like “The Fundamentals of Critical Argumentation” by Douglas Walton or something like that? It’s supposedly quite a good primer on what I think you’re after but I’ve honestly not read it myself.
                                                                                    You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                    World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post

                                                                                      Where were you getting it before?
                                                                                      Aldi used to have it, though it was always a bit sporadic in supply. When it was in stock I used to buy about 6kg at a time, as you just couldn't rely on it being there. Got a bag of this Stapleton's yesterday. Won't be trying it for a couple of weeks. https://easyfood.ie/articles/staplet...es-nationwide/
                                                                                      Person...Woman...Man......Camera..TV

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                                                                                        I’m not sure there’s a single book I would recommend. It’s mostly about learning to avoid and identify logical flaws and fallacies. So any decent book on formal logic would be a good start. AC Grayling has a wonderful book on the history of philosophy which I think was imaginatively called “The History of Philosophy”. Daniel Kahnemann’s book “Thinking Fast and Slow” isn’t 100% what you’re looking for but it’s excellent and deals with logical and cognitive failings and flaws.

                                                                                        Maybe something like “The Fundamentals of Critical Argumentation” by Douglas Walton or something like that? It’s supposedly quite a good primer on what I think you’re after but I’ve honestly not read it myself.
                                                                                        I've posted before about how Libraries are a great resource.

                                                                                        Ordered in 2 of those. Cheers!

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                                                          Those points above made by kayroo are not something I know much about and are such not my issue with him. I've watching some of his talks and so on, so by no means an expert but I did try and learn more about what he thinks (any power struggle...is this a marxist? any altruistic action, is this toxic empathy? ) and what others think about it. Jordan is regularly ripped apart on philosophy communities, and is the mascot of /r/badphilosophy. To me he seems to try and talk with authority about quite a lot of interdisciplinary positions without an in depth knowledge of them himself. When I want to go learn more about what he said, people in said field are generally just picking it apart (people seem quite pissed that he misrepresents others philosophical views and states them as fact), so I'd like to know more about his good aspects.
                                                                                          Déjà vu.

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            If I ran a debate king competition would people be interested? I have some ideas on how to make it as fair as possible, and not overly time consuming.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              Originally posted by dinekes View Post

                                                                                              Its and odd detour all right.
                                                                                              Think of all the forced hours spent in Mass and school classes!
                                                                                              At least 10 years going on Sunday (at gunpoint practically)
                                                                                              Could have been learning a language or a new sport or perchance a new musical instrument (while a new language might have been at gunpoint too it would have at least some utility now
                                                                                              The point of spirituality is that we are more than just utility seeking creatures.

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                Originally posted by hotspur View Post

                                                                                                The point of spirituality is that we are more than just utility seeking creatures.
                                                                                                What do you mean when you say spirituality? I’d be interested in hearing that.

                                                                                                Obviously religion is total nonsense. However I’ve seen spirituality used in all sorts of ways, and I assume you are not using it to refer to a belief in the supernatural?
                                                                                                You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                                World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

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                                                                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                  If I ran a debate king competition would people be interested? I have some ideas on how to make it as fair as possible, and not overly time consuming.
                                                                                                  MrsKayroo is expecting our second child soon so I doubt I’ll have any time left over to consume to this but I’d read avidly at some point.
                                                                                                  You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                                  World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

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                                                                                                    Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                                                                                                    What do you mean when you say spirituality? I’d be interested in hearing that.

                                                                                                    Obviously religion is total nonsense. However I’ve seen spirituality used in all sorts of ways, and I assume you are not using it to refer to a belief in the supernatural?
                                                                                                    The first thing I ask as well, it can mean so much:

                                                                                                    A survey of reviews by McCarroll each dealing with the topic of spirituality gave twenty-seven explicit definitions, among which "there was little agreement."[1] This impedes the systematic study of spirituality and the capacity to communicate findings meaningfully. Furthermore, many of spirituality's core features are not unique to spirituality; for example self-transcendence, asceticism and the recognition of one's connection to all were regarded by the atheist Arthur Schopenhauer as key to ethical life.

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                                                                                                      Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                      If I ran a debate king competition would people be interested? I have some ideas on how to make it as fair as possible, and not overly time consuming.
                                                                                                      We'd have to give Raoul some sort of headstart and me some sort of handicap obv but yeah let's get this on.
                                                                                                      "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

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                                                                                                        Originally posted by hotspur View Post

                                                                                                        The point of spirituality is that we are more than just utility seeking creatures.
                                                                                                        Never got anything from being forced to go to mass every week (thats when they could find me as I used to hide at around 11am on a Sunday)
                                                                                                        Closest I get to spirituality or a sense of that we are more than just ourselves would be from running in the mountains, nature that sort of thing.
                                                                                                        And maybe, just maybe from from being I of 3 teenagers busting out "Sweet Home Alabama" with all the proper gear and amazing ourselves that we actually sounded good!

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                                                                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                                          If I ran a debate king competition would people be interested? I have some ideas on how to make it as fair as possible, and not overly time consuming.
                                                                                                          I know I'd spend far too much time on it and need to focus more on work at the minute. I'd get all anxious about it.

                                                                                                          Maybe when I have read/understood and able to implement the ideas in KR's recommended books I might take part (with a huge handicap)

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                                                                                                            Originally posted by Kayroo View Post

                                                                                                            What do you mean when you say spirituality? I’d be interested in hearing that.

                                                                                                            Obviously religion is total nonsense. However I’ve seen spirituality used in all sorts of ways, and I assume you are not using it to refer to a belief in the supernatural?
                                                                                                            It's a fuzzy concept and not one I have a clear definition of. But in the sense I was using it there I was not referring to anything supernatural, but putting it in opposition to a world view where what is of value is merely mundane utility. A view that the good life involves the sum total of appropriating of what is useful, hedonistic pleasure, and getting a bigger slice of the cake.

                                                                                                            I really do urge you not to go around saying "Obviously religion is total nonsense." It has no beneficial effect on others, and likely has an unpleasant effect on many. This may not be your path in life (or hasn't been yet), but it is something of the utmost value to many people for whom it is not obviously nonsense. You may not "get it", but why do you feel so contemptuous abut it?

                                                                                                            Anyway, congrats on your upcoming arrival.

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                                                                                                              Originally posted by hotspur View Post

                                                                                                              It's a fuzzy concept and not one I have a clear definition of. But in the sense I was using it there I was not referring to anything supernatural, but putting it in opposition to a world view where what is of value is merely mundane utility. A view that the good life involves the sum total of appropriating of what is useful, hedonistic pleasure, and getting a bigger slice of the cake.

                                                                                                              I really do urge you not to go around saying "Obviously religion is total nonsense." It has no beneficial effect on others, and likely has an unpleasant effect on many. This may not be your path in life (or hasn't been yet), but it is something of the utmost value to many people for whom it is not obviously nonsense. You may not "get it", but why do you feel so contemptuous abut it?

                                                                                                              Anyway, congrats on your upcoming arrival.
                                                                                                              They shouldn't be in opposition in my view and it certainly wasnt what I was suggesting.
                                                                                                              In fact the utility of learning a language I would view as a gateway to new experiences and indeed the confidence gained from learning that language and being able to converse with a new population while absorbing their culture and ideas could be deemed a spiritual experience.


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                                                                                                                AFAIK he is not saying that utility in and of itself is mundane, but placing spirituality as a dualism to things that are of just basic usefulness to the self, so your example would not be a of mundane utility. Trying to get the most money you can possibly get for mere pleasure for yourself would be.

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                                                                                                                  Originally posted by hotspur View Post
                                                                                                                  I really do urge you not to go around saying "Obviously religion is total nonsense." It has no beneficial effect on others, and likely has an unpleasant effect on many. This may not be your path in life (or hasn't been yet), but it is something of the utmost value to many people for whom it is not obviously nonsense. You may not "get it", but why do you feel so contemptuous abut it?
                                                                                                                  Because it is nonsense and contemptible nonsense at that.

                                                                                                                  I don’t hold stories of the tooth-fairy in contempt because they don’t inform education policy, ownership of most hospitals or seek to influence public policy. Religion is just a complete joke that is only given any form of respect because a lot of people decide to subscribe to it. But viewed objectively it’s just a silly comfort blanket. Now, by all means you keep your comfort blanket and enjoy it. I won’t seek to remove it from you or anyone else. But when you try and make me use it or live my life in any way influenced by it, well then we will have a problem.

                                                                                                                  People finding it valuable doesn’t make religion or religious beliefs true or good. It’s all just fairy stories. Why would I not be contemptuous of an organized form of fairy worship?
                                                                                                                  You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                                                  World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

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                                                                                                                    Just to be clear Hotspur I am not having a go at you there, I am using the first person for emphasis not to personalize it.
                                                                                                                    You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
                                                                                                                    World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011

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                                                                                                                      Originally posted by dinekes View Post

                                                                                                                      I know I'd spend far too much time on it and need to focus more on work at the minute. I'd get all anxious about it.

                                                                                                                      Maybe when I have read/understood and able to implement the ideas in KR's recommended books I might take part (with a huge handicap)
                                                                                                                      I'd keep it relatively short so it wasn't overly time-consuming. Something like, each match is just an opening statement and reply to your opponents' statement. Each a day apart with a reasonable word limit. Perhaps a small price for the winner. Any other takers?

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                                                                                                                        hotspur and kayroo, you could be doing this for prizes!

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                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                                                                                          AFAIK he is not saying that utility in and of itself is mundane, but placing spirituality as a dualism to things that are of just basic usefulness to the self, so your example would not be a of mundane utility. Trying to get the most money you can possibly get for mere pleasure for yourself would be.
                                                                                                                          I do get what he is saying.

                                                                                                                          However he did respond originally to my post where my examples of learning things with utility were non-material related (learning a language,a new instrument or sport) versus going to Mass which I view personally as a waste of my time and energy.

                                                                                                                          I would agree that theres a spectrum in the pursuit of material things where it can become an empty experience.

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