Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Wordle Gummidge

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[limpwhacker]

Hey folks, hope you all keeping well, unfortunately havent been on here much recently.

I have a vague recollection of having a bet here with someone on Arsenal to finish ahead of Spurs

Wasn't me unfortunately. If you scroll down to the bottom of the opening page you'll see EFL bets you can find out there because that's where the bets were all struck.

[ArmaniJeans]

Hey folks, hope you all keeping well, unfortunately havent been on here much recently.

I have a vague recollection of having a bet here with someone on Arsenal to finish ahead of Spurs

Just in case you missed it, there's an update in the Multi Sport thread with 10 replacement events to be selected by Tuesday 4th.

[pokerhand]

Just in case you missed it, there's an update in the Multi Sport thread with 10 replacement events to be selected by Tuesday 4th.

I think limpwacker made us all aware

[ArmaniJeans]

I think limpwacker made us all aware

Hah, didn't notice he'd sent it to everyone. Good stuff, save me having to send any pms over the weekend.

[Strewelpeter]

I questioned this when I was about 7 and the priest said . Its symbolic . Seems odd people take it literally . :

You literally cannot be a Catholic and believe it is symbolic.
Obviously no one really believes but that's a different matter

[ArmaniJeans]

The Warrior Fergal O'Brien is live on Eurosport at the moment, 7-7 (first to 10) v Liang Wenbo in the final qualifying round for a place at the Crucible.
Could be a late one.

[limpwhacker]

Hah, didn't notice he'd sent it to everyone. Good stuff, save me having to send any pms over the weekend.

What did I do wrong now ?

[Solksjaer!]

You literally cannot be a Catholic and believe it is symbolic.
Obviously no one really believes but that's a different matter

Not that I care but they dont kick you out of the club you know . I literally told a priest it was bull and he laughed . .
I was only ever into it for the communion money anyway. So following your logic Nobody is really a Catholic . We are all closet proddys. Feck . Bread of heaven....

[Solksjaer!]

Religion status updated to -> Its Complicated

[SatNav]

Anyone else watching Anthony on BBC now. Its absolutely brilliant. True story of Anthony Walker

[ComradeCollie]

Anyone else watching Anthony on BBC now. Its absolutely brilliant. True story of Anthony Walker

Ha, I thought it was about the soviet spy.

[Raoul Duke III]

Went to a funeral today, my 42 y/o cousin who left behind a 4 and a 2 y/o (cancer). Awful as you can imagine.

It was a CoI funeral and the rector handled it really sensitively including all the awkwardness around the covid protocols. She was outstanding.

So maybe that's the answer: turn the administrative side of religion over to the laydeez.

[Raoul Duke III]

Even in a metaphor you won’t call me more than semi decent at poker. Which is fair.

I think your biggest leak, as a non-drinker, is being unable to to comprehend the inner workings of the drunken mind.

Have fond memories of you being completely unable to put me on a hand when 4-betting you 42o and binking some kind of 44xxx runout.

[ComradeCollie]

Recently saw footage of a line of vets protesting in Portland, and thought they must be taking really good care of their pets to have so many of them.

[ComradeCollie]

Anyone going to call SP an anti semite for not boycotting twitter for 48hrs as has been suggested by the UK chief rabbi?

In other news seems that Depp trial doesn't have a jury and it's down to one Judge. So he'll probably win, and the damages will be set at £10 paid over 20 years.

[ComradeCollie]

Obese cunts Boris and Jamie Oliver can fuck right off with their diet advice. Come back to us in 6 months when you've both lost 20kgs, and lie to us about how you did it.

[hotspur]

Tell me how the ethics of Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Arristipus, Epicurus, the Stoics, the Cynics were influenced by the Bible.

They weren't. And the ethics of your parents and grandparents were not influenced by their reading of Greek philosophy either. They got their formal ethics from the Church, the clergy run schools, and their similarly conditioned parents and grandparents. The Church's ethical teaches are quite obviously grounded in the Bible. Even if every ethical teaching of the Bible existed all over the planet in other traditions that would not mean that the morality of people in Europe did not come to them through the Church and from the Bible.

Even if every ethical teaching in the Bible existed for all time before it, it came to people in Europe through the Church and from the Bible.

You're as well arguing that churches in Ireland were not due to Christianity because there were buildings before Christianity and elsewhere.

I hope you get my point, I'm very tired so not putting it very well. I could accept all you say about the Bible reflecting existing ethics at the time (I don't but I could), but it is the Church's transmission that has been the dominant transmission of ethics in Europe. And for much else of European culture and society. To either try to divorce Christian ethics from the Bible, or divorce European society's ethics from the Church is to deny the truth of our history.

Anyway I should be the last person arguing for a recognition of the effect of Christianity on Europe or Ireland's ethical learning. But your dislike for the Church appears to have caused you to try to argue something quite untrue. I would like to think we would be quite ethical without Christianity's influence, but I acknowledge the reality of our history. Our ethics is no more free from the effects of Christianity than our first names, schools, hospitals, buildings, Constitution etc.

We need a Christian to take up the mantle here.

[Raoul Duke III]

We need a Christian to take up the mantle here.

Love thy neighbour.

Don't think you need anything more than that.

[Kayroo]

They got their formal ethics from the Church, the clergy run schools, and their similarly conditioned parents and grandparents. The Church's ethical teaches are quite obviously grounded in the Bible. Even if every ethical teaching of the Bible existed all over the planet in other traditions that would not mean that the morality of people in Europe did not come to them through the Church and from the Bible.

Well let's separate two things here. The Bible is a fixed thing. The Church is not. The Church's ethics and morality have changed (glacially) depending on the society they are in. The Church brings their morality to the Bible and uses this fixed "holy word" to justify the shifting ethics. Thomas Aquinas was influenced by Aristotle and then blends Aristotilean philosophy into Christian theology. He took an ethical idea and brought it to the Bible, found a justification for it there and then called it Christian teaching. Then the Church adopts his theological teachings and preaches it to their flock. So my parents and grandparents get their ethics from Aristotle (among other places) but the ethics are justified not by the reason Aristotle used but rather by reference to a magical book.

That does not elevate that book to a source of ethics. It is no such thing. You say Christianity and the Church have influenced our ethical thinking. I agree with that. Anyone who holds a virtual monopoly on education for a few centuries will have an impact on the youth of today (or a thousand or so years of todays). But the ethics they taught did not come from the Bible. If that was true then why would they ignore so much of it now, and even in the past? Even the Church, those literally claiming to be anointed by God, realise they just need to skip over large tracts of Leviticus. Because if they didn't then the Church would have to teach that sleeping with another man's slave is a sin that requires the sacrifice of a goat, and yet remain silent on the fact the other man has a slave at all. They don't do that. The Church brings its own ethics to the Bible and finds justifications for them there.

You seem to be arguing that the Church has an influence on my ethics and that they get their ethics from the Bible, therefore the Bible informs my ethical views. But I think you have a long way to go in proving that the ethics of the Church come from the Bible and not the other way around. People find in it only what they want to find. Slaveowners find justifications for slavery. Misogynists find justifications for the subjugation of women. Trendy priests who want to preach love find messages of hope and joy. But the book (I know it's books, but taking the collection as a whole) itself is devoid of any real lessons or coherent message. Which isn't surprising given its own history.


I know this isn't a discussion you want to have. So I won't engage in it again. But I wanted to ensure my point was clearly made.

[Guest]

I’m really really sorry I posted about Dean Rocks gouging, I could not have foreseen the consequences

[SatNav]

Screenshot_20200728_020209.jpg

[Mellor]

I questioned this when I was about 7 and the priest said . Its symbolic . Seems odd people take it literally . Not defending the CC but come on if you were told it was anything different no wonder you went into science class looking for answers .
Similar the Adam and Eve story was just a story . The bible is basically a storybook to base a good life upon. They knew how to handle wimmin back then though . Not allowed at stonings unless wearing a false beard.

It's not really similar to Adam and Eve at all. There are many stories that are just stories, and acknowledge as so. The idea of the bread and wine changing into the of the body and blood is a bizarre dogma decided to nail itself to 500 years ago. It was a counter claim to Protestantism, so they'll never openly their view on it. But even the pope doesn't think it's actually blood.
I'd say it's more likely that 7 year old Solks misinterpreted what the Priest said rather than him actually saying it was symbolic.

Although it's not quite as simple as others suggest above. The church also says to stays as wine, in appearance and properties. It is only the substance that changes, not the perception. It's goes back to an particular branch of metaphysics and substance theory and not quite as straight forward as symbolic/literal.

[Mellor]

Well let's separate two things here. The Bible is a fixed thing. The Church is not. The Church's ethics and morality have changed (glacially) depending on the society they are in. The Church brings their morality to the Bible and uses this fixed "holy word" to justify the shifting ethics. Thomas Aquinas was influenced by Aristotle and then blends Aristotilean philosophy into Christian theology. He took an ethical idea and brought it to the Bible, found a justification for it there and then called it Christian teaching. Then the Church adopts his theological teachings and preaches it to their flock. So my parents and grandparents get their ethics from Aristotle (among other places) but the ethics are justified not by the reason Aristotle used but rather by reference to a magical book.

That does not elevate that book to a source of ethics. It is no such thing. You say Christianity and the Church have influenced our ethical thinking. I agree with that. Anyone who holds a virtual monopoly on education for a few centuries will have an impact on the youth of today (or a thousand or so years of todays). But the ethics they taught did not come from the Bible. If that was true then why would they ignore so much of it now, and even in the past? Even the Church, those literally claiming to be anointed by God, realise they just need to skip over large tracts of Leviticus. Because if they didn't then the Church would have to teach that sleeping with another man's slave is a sin that requires the sacrifice of a goat, and yet remain silent on the fact the other man has a slave at all. They don't do that. The Church brings its own ethics to the Bible and finds justifications for them there.

You seem to be making a different point to Hotspur completely. You said: "Nobody takes their morality from the Bible." And you are arguing that in a very specific. That nobody takes the morals, entirely, wholly, originally and without amendment or omission, from the bible. That is obviously true, and maybe that's what you originally were saying but obviously you know Hotspur was not suggesting that.

Ethics exists before the bible or the church, and the church didn't invent them. But the fact they didn't create them doesn't seem relevant to the notion that it has had an influence on the morals of people in the western world. When our great-grandparents followed the opinion that abortion/sex/condoms/divorce/suicide was wrong. They did so because the Priest said so while pointing to the magic book. Nobody, or few people perhaps, campaigned for/against various amendments in the 20th century because Aristotle or Plato said so.

You seem to be arguing that the Church has an influence on my ethics and that they get their ethics from the Bible, therefore the Bible informs my ethical views. But I think you have a long way to go in proving that the ethics of the Church come from the Bible and not the other way around. People find in it only what they want to find. Slaveowners find justifications for slavery. Misogynists find justifications for the subjugation of women. Trendy priests who want to preach love find messages of hope and joy. But the book (I know it's books, but taking the collection as a whole) itself is devoid of any real lessons or coherent message. Which isn't surprising given its own history.

I think trying to separate the Church from the Bible lets your point down. The church is not come eternal hive mind. The "church" created the new testament. Other dudes wrote other books.
So they a were all created by man, who was in some part central to the church. Arguing whether the church is influenced by a man 2000 years ago or the book he wrote seems a bit silly.

It's just one big science fiction fandom after-all. The original trilogy, the new trilogy. The fan-fiction, and the various non-canonical sources.

[Kayroo]

Mellor I think you may have missed my point. I originally said that nobody gets their morals from the Bible. The basis for that was that the Bible isn’t a source of moral teaching. It doesn’t have anything useful to say about morality. Rather, it is a hot mess of random books collated into a single text without any real useful purpose.

I concede that the Church teaches morality. I never argued against that. And I concede that they point to the Bible as authority for their teaching. But I do not concede that the Bible is where the moral teaching comes from. My entire point is that the Bible is useless and that we bring our morality to it, rather than take our morality from it. Nothing you said remotely contradicts that.

By the by, your suggestion that the Church is not some eternal hive mind is somewhat undermined by the fact that the Church itself considers itself an eternal hive mind. The holders of the one holy revealed truth. The voice of God on earth. They make that claim, not me.

[Kayroo]

Although it's not quite as simple as others suggest above. The church also says to stays as wine, in appearance and properties. It is only the substance that changes, not the perception. It's goes back to an particular branch of metaphysics and substance theory and not quite as straight forward as symbolic/literal.

I mean, great. Who cares? It’s all just nonsense one way or the other. It’s a wafer. A Jewish man from 2000 years ago isn’t there either physically or in spirit.

[Solksjaer!]

Devils advocate (I know there is no devil )

Ethics ?
The sermon on the mount is awash with Ethics .

Kayroo is allowing his opinion to overrule . As a lawman he is making a cardinal sin (I know there is no cardinal sin)

[Lazare]

I mean, great. Who cares? It’s all just nonsense one way or the other. It’s a wafer. A Jewish man from 2000 years ago isn’t there either physically or in spirit.

Had to laugh at a tweet this week from a Dallas news org asking for opinion on what Jesus would do during these times.

As if the average Texan would listen to what a brown lad with a beard from the Middle East has to say.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Kayroo]

Had to laugh at a tweet this week from a Dallas news org asking for opinion on what Jesus would do during these times.

As if the average Texan would listen to what a brown socialist lad with a beard from the Middle East has to say.

Just to make it worse.

[Raoul Duke III]

Just to make it worse.

What are your own personal ethics?

Not a question anyone ever gets asked on a daily basis I imagine.
But could you list out the top 5, maybe in bullet point form?

[oleras]

Try not to be a cunt should see you right in most of lifes situations.

[Kayroo]

What are your own personal ethics?

Not a question anyone ever gets asked on a daily basis I imagine.
But could you list out the top 5, maybe in bullet point form?

That's a rare thing to be asked. Haven't really looked at it in that way in a while. I wrote a couple of answers to this. One was too pretentious (deontological kantianism came up). The other read like a series of greeting cards. On balance (since you asked for bullet points) I've gone for the greeting cards.

I suppose, and please excuse the roughness of this, they would be:

1. Never make a situation worse. Always act as though your obligation is to improve a situation. Identifying how that might be done is obviously the trickiest part.
2. Be kind. I don't always live up to this one but I think if your guiding principles include kindness you shouldn't go too wrong, too often.
3. Wherever possible, tell the truth. But when it's not possible, do everything you can to avoid lying.
4. Never make a promise you cannot keep, and never break a promise you've made. (An offshoot of 3 but really its a separate issue for me. Telling the truth is one thing but committing to act is another)
5. Take responsibility for your own agency. A good will is inherently good. But if a well-intended act produces a negative outcome it is important to own both the intention and the result. Trying to excuse one by reference to the other isn't sufficient.


These are really not expressed well and actually I am glad you asked me as I think it's a worthwhile exercise to go away and examine that question in more depth.


I'd be interested to hear yours also.

[Solksjaer!]

5. Take responsibility for your own agency. A good will is inherently good. But if a well-intended act produces a negative outcome it is important to own both the intention and the result. Trying to excuse one by reference to the other isn't sufficient.


This one took me years to recognize. Good one .

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[hotspur]

A deafening silence from the Axis here. Hitch makes dodgy claims about China and a stomping ensues. Kayroo claims the Bible is not a source of ethics and there is silence.

I just had the thought "I bet there's a random Bible quote site". There is. I was confident that the chances that a random quote would be ethical in nature were high, here is the one that came up:

Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven."

Anyway, definitely my last word on the matter.

[hotspur]

One was too pretentious (deontological kantianism came up).

I'd be more interested in hearing that one.

[ComradeCollie]

I'm being asked to do maths I'm not comfortable with. Would the furniture and random stuff of a standard 60sqm apartment normally fit in a 30 cubic metre removal truck? I'd imagine so - as in there is more than 50% air compared to stuff in our apartment, so it must be less than 30 cubic metre stuff, but always get a bit confused by area. Like I'm guessing that sqm and cubic metre are approximately comparable when the sqm refers to an apartment.

Should be fine

4.5 tonne truck – holds 24 cubic meters off furniture:

• Suits medium size moves – ideal if you have a two bedroom unit or small house.
• Great for tight spots or where is hard to park.

https://www.carefulmovers.com.au/choose-your-truck/

[Raoul Duke III]

There was a reason I asked for the bullet points - Congratulations sir, you are a Christian .

I think we can subtly rephrase your ethics as follows:

1. Never make a situation worse. Always act as though your obligation is to improve a situation. Identifying how that might be done is obviously the trickiest part.
Thou shat not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness
Thou shalt not covet

2. Be kind. I don't always live up to this one but I think if your guiding principles include kindness you shouldn't go too wrong, too often.
Love thy neighbour

3. Wherever possible, tell the truth. But when it's not possible, do everything you can to avoid lying.
Thou shalt not bear false witness

4. Never make a promise you cannot keep, and never break a promise you've made. (An offshoot of 3 but really its a separate issue for me. Telling the truth is one thing but committing to act is another)
Thou shalt not bear false witness

5. Take responsibility for your own agency. A good will is inherently good. But if a well-intended act produces a negative outcome it is important to own both the intention and the result. Trying to excuse one by reference to the other isn't sufficient.
Got stuck here with my senior infants level RE but it's a good one

[Solksjaer!]

A deafening silence from the Axis here. Hitch makes dodgy claims about China and a stomping ensues. Kayroo claims the Bible is not a source of ethics and there is silence.

I just had the thought "I bet there's a random Bible quote site". There is. I was confident that the chances that a random quote would be ethical in nature were high, here is the one that came up:



Anyway, definitely my last word on the matter.

There are no god fearers on here but there are Kayroo fearers. Present company except .

[Kayroo]

There was a reason I asked for the bullet points - Congratulations sir, you are a Christian .

I think we can subtly rephrase your ethics as follows:

"Always act as though your obligation is to improve a situation" is not the same as an injunction against actively worsening it through murder, theft, lies or adultery. And the fifth commandment is not "Thou shalt not kill" it is "thou shalt not do murder".

Also, as I said above, those are self-evident requirements for human civilization. The tablets of Moses' imagination no more gave those ethical ideas to me than God gave them to Moses.

[Guest]

Lot of mistaking correlation for causation here. Because we learned the basics of logic and history from Folens schoolbooks, all hail Folens. Is that how this viewpoint works?

[Mellor]

Mellor I think you may have missed my point. I originally said that nobody gets their morals from the Bible.

I pointed out that was that you said originally.
I also point out that it’s not what Hotspur actually said either.

I concede that the Church teaches morality. I never argued against that. And I concede that they point to the Bible as authority for their teaching. But I do not concede that the Bible is where the moral teaching comes from.

I never claimed the bible was where the morality comes from. I thought that was pretty clear. I also agree nobody needs the bible or the church for morals.

You concede that church teaches morality, and has done for a long time. And that they point to the bible as the authority.
Therefore it’s not unreasonable to point out that the church, and with them the bible, has impacted western morality.
Even though atheists like you or I don’t buy into any of their bullshit.

By the by, your suggestion that the Church is not some eternal hive mind is somewhat undermined by the fact that the Church itself considers itself an eternal hive mind. The holders of the one holy revealed truth. The voice of God on earth. They make that claim, not me.

They make all sorts of ridiculous claims. But one holy true voice or other such nonsense doesn’t equate being a telepathic hive mind fused with men from 2000 years ago.
Nonetheless, their claims would have to actually be true to start undermining anything.

[hotspur]

Lot of mistaking correlation for causation here. Because we learned the basics of logic and history from Folens schoolbooks, all hail Folens. Is that how this viewpoint works?

That's a statement of causality.

[Raoul Duke III]

It would be a good idea to teach ethics in school

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Mellor]

I'm being asked to do maths I'm not comfortable with. Would the furniture and random stuff of a standard 60sqm apartment normally fit in a 30 cubic metre removal truck? I'd imagine so - as in there is more than 50% air compared to stuff in our apartment, so it must be less than 30 cubic metre stuff, but always get a bit confused by area. Like I'm guessing that sqm and cubic metre are approximately comparable when the sqm refers to an apartment.

A 60sqm apartment is 150-160cubic metres.
A 30 cubic metre truck is 12-15sqm.

It should fit but depends on how stackable your furniture is. Table and chairs, and sofas are the most awkward.

[Raoul Duke III]

wow its like an alien came in and wiped out your knowledge of kayroos fundamental point that these aren't christian-derived morals, they are far longer standing morals that christianity subsequently adopted. To make a relatable analogy it would be like calling someone a cricketer because they like afternoon tea; while in fact afternoon tea preceeded cricket and was in fact famously what god invented to quench his thirst after creating the land but before creating water.

whatever about the religious stuff (which is truly boring at this stage), there is one immutable law on here;
thou shalt not take the name of cricket in vain, or thou shalt get an almighty ass-whuppin'

[Solksjaer!]

And from herein the book must be placed in a drawer of sorts within a temporary sleeping chamber and close to the area of repose , so that the weary traveller might take comfort in it’s teachings or for added strength for when doubt & temptation comes his way.
OR – Just before you ring up the call girl to come up to your room ‘av a butchers in the top drawer of the bedside locker and be reminded that GOD is always watching.

[hotspur]

It would be a good idea to teach ethics in school

I assumed that they did, well basic Christian ethics. Do they not?

One problem with teaching ethics to, say leaving cert age students, is that ethics is a really quite difficult subject. They wouldn't tend to have the cognitive capacity, and unless they were trained in philosophy I can't imagine teachers would be much use. They would have to come up with a curriculum which is very dumbed down to the point that, while better than nothing, would doubtless be philosophically pretty unsatisfactory. Might be still worth it though. But it would be a massive thing to decide on the curriculum.

By the way if anyone fancies learning a little about the area Marianne Talbot did a really nice and understandable series on ethics for beginners through an Oxford Uni adult education class that is up on Youtube over 7 episodes. She's very good, down to earth, and yet enjoyably flighty:

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Guest]

That's a statement of causality.

The schoolbook publisher just took existing wisdom and wrapped it in a neat, marketable package...exactly the same way Christianity did. Had they not done so, morality would have found its way through the generations to us through some other channel because it's genetically optimal.

[ionapaul]

Hey Dublin peeps - need to get a hall/landing painted. Don't want to attempt it myself (dab hand at the other rooms though!) as wouldn't feel too confident with the highest bits over the stairs.

Could anyone recommend someone to paint a single room like this? I assume the big painting contractors wouldn't be interested in such a small job.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Denny Crane]

It would be a good idea to teach ethics in school

And personal finance.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Goodluck2me]

Hey Dublin peeps - need to get a hall/landing painted. Don't want to attempt it myself (dab hand at the other rooms though!) as wouldn't feel too confident with the highest bits over the stairs.

Could anyone recommend someone to paint a single room like this? I assume the big painting contractors wouldn't be interested in such a small job.

Could have a lead for you for a small job. Fella living down the road from me who is a recently retired pilot, got him in on a nixer for some painting - started off slow on our windowsills but made a savage job of the landing.

[Mellor]

The schoolbook publisher just took existing wisdom and wrapped it in a neat, marketable package..

Yes. They didn’t invent maths, science or any subjects.
But nonetheless, the particular schoolbooks you used, influenced your education. The fact other school books existed that you didn’t use doesn’t negate that.

I’m surprised this is controversial tbh.

[dinekes]

I'm being asked to do maths I'm not comfortable with. Would the furniture and random stuff of a standard 60sqm apartment normally fit in a 30 cubic metre removal truck? I'd imagine so - as in there is more than 50% air compared to stuff in our apartment, so it must be less than 30 cubic metre stuff, but always get a bit confused by area. Like I'm guessing that sqm and cubic metre are approximately comparable when the sqm refers to an apartment.

Probably an idea to get some bubble wrap for the breakables,
maybe some packing tape and string. A few boxes for your finest crockery. Presume the removal lads will have boxes etc but I'd do all the breakable stuff first and mark the box with a sharpie.

Probably redundant/obvious tips.

[ComradeCollie]

Went into town today for the first time since before times. Still very quiet.