Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Opr]

It's pretty hard to be compassionate towards a bunch of crybabies who'll bang on about being oppressed/downtrodden while also claiming that women/gay folk/immigrants/liberals should just suck it up and stop being so beta.

Agreed but it seems almost impossible for people to extricate themselves from certain lines of thinking. It comes back to much of what Harris talks about towards, Ego, freewill and sense of self. Generally you dig into someone enough you will find deep seeded problems and ways in which life has molded each person own views. This doesn't make the views any less abhorrent but I despise when I see people of intelligence pick people like this apart just because they feel superior and it feels good to take the wings off them like flies. It is of no use to anyone and if anything makes them feel more entrenched in those views.

Taking out the very extreme views we have horrible attitude across society in what is morally acceptable. If people stopped to think what they do in their own lives which is morally questionable without a thought they might have a little more compassion for people on the extreme.

Opr

[pokerhand]

This might be his single greatest nonsense point. Men aren't declining. They feel a decline because they are relatively not as superior to women anymore.

Two people are standing side by side trying to pick apples from a tree. Sheila is standing in a hole dug by Mick while Mick is standing on the ground 10 feet above her. Sheila starts to fill in the hole and rises up bit by bit until she is almost level with Mick and can reach just as many apples.

Mick complains Sheila has forced a decline in his role. Fuck Mick.

Think your analogy is flawed tbh the more I think about it.

It's more appropriate for explaining Darwin theory. Your analogy focus on the hole in the ground and the gender, but the point of the analogy is that the objective is to get the most apples, so that Mick and his family survive, so why the fuck would mick care if it's Sheila or Bob who's in the hole?

You say men feel gender threatened, but think that miss the underlying problem. The fact is, due to the change in roles, men now have double the competition for the same objectives and the rules have changed, of course they feel threatened. I am not saying it is a bad thing but any change there will always be a proportion that will resist and complain as prefer the familiar.

[Keane]

I'm so baffled by all of this. I absolutely can't relate to this apparent experience of being under siege in terms of my masculinity. Nobody I know ever mentions anything about it in real life. Twitter is the only place this is a thing in my world.

[Opr]

Think your analogy is flawed tbh the more I think about it.

It's more appropriate for explaining Darwin theory. Your analogy focus on the hole in the ground and the gender, but the point of the analogy is that the objective is to get the most apples, so that Mick and his family survive, so why the fuck would mick care if it's Sheila or Bob who's in the hole?

You say men feel gender threatened, but think that miss the underlying problem. The fact is, due to the change in roles, men now have double the competition for the same objectives and the rules have changed, of course they feel threatened. I am not saying it is a bad thing but any change there will always be a proportion that will resist and complain as prefer the familiar.

The conclusion though that some men draw with regards women though I think is correct. What you are trying to do is use some understanding rather than just saying, fuck Mick. They are separate things and why I said that pointing out the fallacy is of little use when not trying to understand why it exists. At least if you understand it can be addressed in some meaningful way.

Opr

[Kayroo]

Think your analogy is flawed tbh the more I think about it.

The analogy demonstrates the silliness of creating a system by which you obtain an obscene advantage and, when that advantage is removed, having the temerity to complain about its removal.

Mick and Sheila should always have been on the same level. The removal of Mick's self-created advantage doesn't reduce him - it literally just elevates her to the base norm. It is also how it should always have been. You can't complain because someone stops you cheating.

[Opr]

The analogy demonstrates the silliness of creating a system by which you obtain an obscene advantage and, when that advantage is removed, having the temerity to complain about its removal.

Mick and Sheila should always have been on the same level. The removal of Mick's self-created advantage doesn't reduce him - it literally just elevates her to the base norm. It is also how it should always have been. You can't complain because someone stops you cheating.

Do you apply this same logic towards the advantages everyone gets in life around things like dumb luck to be born with intelligence? Should everyone in life not be afforded the exact same standard of living or is it fine that we created quite the unlevel playing ground in this regard?

Opr

[Kayroo]

Do you apply this same logic towards the advantages everyone gets in life around things like dumb luck to be born with intelligence? Should everyone in life not be afforded the exact same standard of living or is it fine that we created quite the unlevel playing ground in this regard?

Opr

My point was directed towards the false idea that masculinity and men were somehow under attack. To address that I used an analogy to demonstrate that women levelling the playing field was not a reduction in masculinity but rather an elevation in women's status.

Actually you're making my point for me quite well. I'm not arguing that people should all have the same things. I am arguing that we should not be afraid by the removal of unnecessary barriers to equality.

[Opr]

My point was directed towards the false idea that masculinity and men were somehow under attack. To address that I used an analogy to demonstrate that women levelling the playing field was not a reduction in masculinity but rather an elevation in women's status.

Actually you're making my point for me quite well. I'm not arguing that people should all have the same things. I am arguing that we should not be afraid by the removal of unnecessary barriers to equality.

Expertly dodged the question but I didn't expect much else. They are one in the same in my mind. Just because gender is something that we see it somehow feels more tangible but people seem to have no problem morally ignoring all the other wrongs in the current society which are creating more and more disillusioned people. I'm not looking for an argument I was genuinely curious to how right or wrong you felt about something less intangible which obviously breeds inequality in the current system. I could have instead picked the place you where born on this planet.

The point was brought up the other night about how you should feel about living in such an unjust society. Peterson made something of the argument to the effect that you should just try to live as good a life as you possibly can and ignore it all. That seems quite a dichotomy in my head because surely living that life with an understanding of the unjust nature means you are flying straight in the face of what you feel is morally wrong by playing the game.

Opr

[Kayroo]

Expertly dodged the question but I didn't expect much else.

Expertly subtle ad hominem that tries to denigrate my position without addressing it. I actually did expect more of you. (See, I can do needless and pointless passive-aggressive opening lines too!)


First off, I did answer your question. You asked, in essence, whether I applied the same view of gender inequality to intellectual disparity. You then posited a separate query to the effect of - should we all have the same things or is it ok that we live in an unequal world.

My response to that was to say that I didn't believe we should all have the same things but that we also shouldn't be afraid to remove the barriers that prevent us from having a chance to obtain the same standard of living.


If you want to have a broader discussion about inequality by geography or by base ability then that's fine, we can have that discussion. My position is effectively the same. I don't think we should fear the removal of barriers to equality.

Your initial question about whether or not I apply the same logic to other spheres of inequality isn't helpful because it achieves nothing. Even if I didn't apply the same logic to those areas it doesn't mean my reasoning, logic and conclusions are incorrect on the topic we are discussing.

[Guest]

Do you apply this same logic towards the advantages everyone gets in life around things like dumb luck to be born with intelligence? Should everyone in life not be afforded the exact same standard of living or is it fine that we created quite the unlevel playing ground in this regard?

Opr

Expertly dodged the question but I didn't expect much else. They are one in the same in my mind. Just because gender is something that we see it somehow feels more tangible but people seem to have no problem morally ignoring all the other wrongs in the current society which are creating more and more disillusioned people.

Opr

So being born a woman is the same as being born less intelligent with regard to what you should expect from life

Good luck!

Not replying btw

[Guest]

Always felt sorry for the Orange order, life wasn't the same for them at all once the Catholics stopped being treated as second class citizens under law

& Them poor white lads in the southern states of America, finding it harder to get a table once the black fellas where allowed into the restaurants

Terrible, pure terrible!

[Opr]

Expertly subtle ad hominem that tries to denigrate my position without addressing it. I actually did expect more of you. (See, I can do needless and pointless passive-aggressive opening lines too!)

Apologies it was born out of frustration because I feel at times you hold back quite a bit about the nature of your positions on these topics. Maybe I remember incorrectly but you seemed to hold quite a good dim deconstructive view on the nature of the how we live many years back although maybe views have changed or maybe I just remember it incorrectly.

First off, I did answer your question. You asked, in essence, whether I applied the same view of gender inequality to intellectual disparity. You then posited a separate query to the effect of - should we all have the same things or is it ok that we live in an unequal world.

My response to that was to say that I didn't believe we should all have the same things but that we also shouldn't be afraid to remove the barriers that prevent us from having a chance to obtain the same standard of living.

If you want to have a broader discussion about inequality by geography or by base ability then that's fine, we can have that discussion. My position is effectively the same. I don't think we should fear the removal of barriers to equality.

Your initial question about whether or not I apply the same logic to other spheres of inequality isn't helpful because it achieves nothing. Even if I didn't apply the same logic to those areas it doesn't mean my reasoning, logic and conclusions are incorrect on the topic we are discussing.

I was trying to gauge why you felt we all shouldn't have the same things. Your position seems reasonable although as I already posted I don't really see a difference in the creators of inequality only in the complexity of changing them. I still feel they are morally wrong advantages that you should at least be aware of as a person. I have some out their views on how doing what you know is morally wrong effects you as a person unless of course you are born with some brain defect.

Opr

[Denny Crane]

Something really needs to be done about these seagulls.

[darwinatemyhamster]

My soon to be 14 year old has been a big 21 Pilots fan since he was elevenish.Over a year ago, I went googling tour dates on the off chance. No joy they were on a year break but signed up for emails etc just incase they might actually come back. In the mean time I've become as big a fan and hey presto a couple of weeks ago got mailed tour dates. His birthday is in a couple of weeks and after seeing they're playing the three arena said fuck that I'll go all out as a surprise present and make a trip of it for the Two of us. Pre-sale codes in hand ready for the morning for St Petersburg in February!

One time, could be epic!

Tickets secured!

Looking forward to his birthday now so I can tell him. Jaysus off to Russia for a gig, not something I thought I'd ever attempt tbh.

[Ed]

Agreed but it seems almost impossible for people to extricate themselves from certain lines of thinking. It comes back to much of what Harris talks about towards, Ego, freewill and sense of self. Generally you dig into someone enough you will find deep seeded problems and ways in which life has molded each person own views. This doesn't make the views any less abhorrent but I despise when I see people of intelligence pick people like this apart just because they feel superior and it feels good to take the wings off them like flies. It is of no use to anyone and if anything makes them feel more entrenched in those views.

Taking out the very extreme views we have horrible attitude across society in what is morally acceptable. If people stopped to think what they do in their own lives which is morally questionable without a thought they might have a little more compassion for people on the extreme.

Opr

Fair points, no one gets to being angry at the world without there being some issues along the way. The men's rights stuff is something that gets me worked up more than most things as I feel the current 'men's rights movement' has very little to do with actual men's issues and has been tied up in a much more insidious movement of targeted attacks on women's rights while framing them in the context of 'what about us?'. There just seems to be an overwhelming thread through this diminished masculinity stuff that the most vocal are only ever vocal when they're trying to deflect from issues such as men being overwhelmingly responsible for domestic violence.

[eamonhonda]

Fair points, no one gets to being angry at the world without there being some issues along the way. The men's rights stuff is something that gets me worked up more than most things as I feel the current 'men's rights movement' has very little to do with actual men's issues and has been tied up in a much more insidious movement of targeted attacks on women's rights while framing them in the context of 'what about us?'. There just seems to be an overwhelming thread through this diminished masculinity stuff that the most vocal are only ever vocal when they're trying to deflect from issues such as men being overwhelmingly responsible for domestic violence.

It's basically white lives matter. And I'm sure there's some crossovers

[ghostface]

Anyone flown Canada Rouge? Going with them to Vancouver next week and think there is some sort of premium level, worth trying to get that?

[Opr]

I'm so baffled by all of this. I absolutely can't relate to this apparent experience of being under siege in terms of my masculinity. Nobody I know ever mentions anything about it in real life. Twitter is the only place this is a thing in my world.

People have become far better at calling out the assholes so it means they are far more guarded about opinions. I am pretty sure you will remember guys who objectified women in pretty abhorrent ways as basically cum buckets with the way in which they talked, 'lad talk'. That has become far less prevalent because it is now not acceptable but it doesn't mean it doesn't go on as recent news events showed. Taking that to other points of view, it goes on but only between people they know hold similar views. I had one very nasty incident outside my own social circle recently which made me realise the views that people hold are just crazy. Most of it born out of some bitterness in their own life.

Opr

[Keane]

People have become far better at calling out the assholes so it means they are far more guarded about opinions. I am pretty sure you will remember guys who objectified women in pretty abhorrent ways as basically cum buckets with the way in which they talked, 'lad talk'. That has become far less prevalent because it is now not acceptable but it doesn't mean it doesn't go on as recent news events showed. Taking that to other points of view, it goes on but only between people they know hold similar views. I had one very nasty incident outside my own social circle recently which made me realise the views that people hold are just crazy. Most of it born out of some bitterness in their own life.

Opr

Sorry, is this what is being lamented as the decline of masculinity?

Anyone flown Canada Rouge? Going with them to Vancouver next week and think there is some sort of premium level, worth trying to get that?

I'm told the premium level is like economy on a normal airline and unlikely to be worth the added cost.

[Opr]

Sorry, is this what is being lamented as the decline of masculinity?

No, my point was to do with the fact that people who deem certain ways as acceptable to talk will only do it around people they feel are receptive to the conversation hence why you have not been exposed to this IRL.

Opr

[Keane]

No, my point was to do with the fact that people who deem certain ways as acceptable to talk will only do it around people they feel are receptive to the conversation hence why you have not been exposed to this IRL.

Opr

I don't follow you. I'm saying that as a man there is nothing I have seen, heard or experienced in the real world that has given me the impression that my masculinity is under attack.

It's not exactly unusual to be in company with people who make off colour remarks about women and others. I have no idea what they have to do with what I'm saying.

[Opr]

Fair points, no one gets to being angry at the world without there being some issues along the way. The men's rights stuff is something that gets me worked up more than most things as I feel the current 'men's rights movement' has very little to do with actual men's issues and has been tied up in a much more insidious movement of targeted attacks on women's rights while framing them in the context of 'what about us?'. There just seems to be an overwhelming thread through this diminished masculinity stuff that the most vocal are only ever vocal when they're trying to deflect from issues such as men being overwhelmingly responsible for domestic violence.

I'm not sure about the domestic violence thing. It is a part but it is drawing straight lines in a very complex issue of why so many young men feel so disenfranchised. Irish men, in general, aren't the most forthcoming human being at talking about feelings. That I think has created many problems in Irish society. Both fathers and sons.

I don't think there is much meaning in the way we live as a society or the kinds of things we try to tell people to reach towards to make them happy. Most of it is completely vacuous imo. That leads to feelings of worthlessness, incompleteness and a searching for something else. It is why I think so many people latch onto the crazy. They are trying to find meaning in something, anything.

Opr

[6starpool]

Anyone flown Canada Rouge? Going with them to Vancouver next week and think there is some sort of premium level, worth trying to get that?

They are a budget carrier. I can't remember much, but I'd imagine there isn't much advantage.

[Opr]

I don't follow you. I'm saying that as a man there is nothing I have seen, heard or experienced in the real world that has given me the impression that my masculinity is under attack.

It's not exactly unusual to be in company with people who make off colour remarks about women and others. I have no idea what they have to do with what I'm saying.

Sorry I took your original point to mean that you hadn't been exposed in the real world to the kind of views which are expunged on the internet and thus those kinds of people are rare or don't exist outside the internet.

Opr

[Keane]

Sorry I took your original point to mean that you hadn't been exposed in the real world to the kind of views which are expunged on the internet and thus those kinds of people are rare or don't exist outside the internet.

Opr

Ah no just crossed wires then, carry on!

[Guest]

[Opr]

I probably should post one of my favorite Harris clips at this point. I completely love how Harris explains things but I should say he was someone who came along at a point when these views were so firmly embedded in me as a person through life events it was a confirmation rather than an awakening. I have tried to listen to other points of view so as not to exist in an echo chamber but Harris always resonances so hard. The connection with the now has been profound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srxDtefn740

Opr

[Theresa]

Anyone flown Canada Rouge? Going with them to Vancouver next week and think there is some sort of premium level, worth trying to get that?

yeah budget carrier.

Hardly a direct flight? Ive had experiences with them before where they don't provide power outlets or screens on certain routes (or planes). You should check flightaware for your route and plane specifics and then check those deets if you care.

[ghostface]

yeah budget carrier.

Hardly a direct flight? Ive had experiences with them before where they don't provide power outlets or screens on certain routes (or planes). You should check flightaware for your route and plane specifics and then check those deets if you care.

Cheers, will check that out. Ye direct flight from Dublin. Prob should have given this a bit more thought months ago when booked it

[Solksjaer!]

I misspoke earlier. The Apple analogy WAS a great analogy.

[Lazare]

Grand bitta reydin in here tonight

[luckforsome]

...Seen a 10 minute clip of the sacha baron Cohen documentary, "Who is America", in which he does fake interviews with politicians...Spent most of it thinking it's staged and obviously the politicians know it's fake...I almost wish they did, because the levels of WTF are just through the roof...

https://youtu.be/QkXeMoBPSDk

[Mellor]

It's more appropriate for explaining Darwin theory. Your analogy focus on the hole in the ground and the gender, but the point of the analogy is that the objective is to get the most apples, so that Mick and his family survive, so why the fuck would mick care if it's Sheila or Bob who's in the hole?

Haven't you just proved yourself wrong with that last bit? Mick shouldn't care who is in the hole, if it was about Darwin theory, he wouldn't care. But the fact he does care, is precisely the point.

If Bob came a with a ladder, and plonked himself beside Mick - Mick doesn't care. In fact he's shake his hand and buy him a pint. But if Sheila ever gets a ladder...

[Funkymonk]

Cheers, will check that out. Ye direct flight from Dublin. Prob should have given this a bit more thought months ago when booked it

I've travelled home and back to Vancouver with them a few weeks ago and last summer. It's basic but grand. Sat In the row with two seats. Power supply between the seats, although I think only one and as a warning it is a North American connection. Main thing is no entertainment system but you can download their app and use it through that. Well worth it being a little basic to fly direct. They are the only airline that do at the minute. Food isn't very good but it's plane food. Premium economy is just a little more room I think

[Raoul Duke III]

...Seen a 10 minute clip of the sacha baron Cohen documentary, "Who is America", in which he does fake interviews with politicians...Spent most of it thinking it's staged and obviously the politicians know it's fake...I almost wish they did, because the levels of WTF are just through the roof...
https://youtu.be/QkXeMoBPSDk

Apparently that's not even the craziest one he did, the Sarah Palin one is supposed to be off the charts.

[Ed]

Restaurant recommendations for Glasgow?

[eamonhonda]

Restaurant recommendations for Glasgow?

Eat eckies, go subby.

[Ed]

Eat eckies, go subby.

Ha, Late Nite Tuff Guy is on in there tonight but no dancing on the cards this weekend

[Strewelpeter]

Restaurant recommendations for Glasgow?

I liked this place

http://www.mussel-inn.com/seafood-restaurant-glasgow/

[Kayroo]

Apologies it was born out of frustration because I feel at times you hold back quite a bit about the nature of your positions on these topics. Maybe I remember incorrectly but you seemed to hold quite a good dim deconstructive view on the nature of the how we live many years back although maybe views have changed or maybe I just remember it incorrectly.

I have certainly been influenced by Derrida but I would say my primary philosophical influences are Kant, Kelsen, Hart and Dworkin. I certainly wouldn't say I subscribe to any particular school of thought on how we live, and I definitely wouldn't describe my views as dim (whether to mean uneducated or dark in outlook).

It's also the only time I've ever been accused of holding back my opinion on anything. I would have assumed my positions on any number of issues was crystal clear.

I was trying to gauge why you felt we all shouldn't have the same things

It depends what you mean by "same things". If everyone received precisely the same educational resources then you would see a spectrum of outcomes. If you tried to address that by giving additional resources to students on the lower end of the spectrum then you are giving unequal resources to one group over another, creating an advantage. If the goal is to give everyone the same educational outcome then that is a reasonable step to take. If your goal is to give everyone the best chance to maximise their abilities then it may not be the best use of resources. So to a large extent whether or not we all have the "same things" depends on what your goal is.

There are any number of legitimate goals that could be pursued in this example. You might want to prioritise producing the highest possible number of top level students to attend university on the basis that this has the greatest overall social good (it may or may not, I am simply positing this as a reasonable policy goal). In that instance you might put all your additional resources into the very best students and let the middle spectrum and lower spectrum students continue at the agreed base level of resources. There's nothing morally wrong with that, it is simply a policy choice on the distribution of resources.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think it's fair to say I have a rather complex view of this issue. As I am sure you also do. Might be a touch boring for this thread but still interesting to me!

[Opr]

I think it's fair to say I have a rather complex view of this issue. As I am sure you also do. Might be a touch boring for this thread but still interesting to me!

I certainly didn't mean dim in the uneducated sense but I am pretty sure you already knew that. I think much of what humanity is doing is quite dark when you deconstruct it with empathy for all people. I had a fairly long reply written and then thought it probably isn't best served in this thread and the whole conversation will end up getting quite messy.

Do you still survive by the way on quite a low level of sleep? I mentioned it in this thread already but you should give 'Why We Sleep' a read. It was an eye-opening read for myself. The impairment of higher level cognitive functions through a lack of sleep was particularly interesting. That is maybe why society is going a bit mad. His enthusiasm for sleep is infectious, he would have you believe all that ails us is mainly down to a lack of sleep.

Opr

[Lazare]

Sleep was awesome.

[Opr]

Sleep was awesome.

You now need to on top of that great sleep find a way to work a siesta into your day to live longer

Opr

[DeadParrot]

You now need to on top of that great sleep find a way to work a siesta into your day to live longer

Opr

I really do think a nap in the middle of the day makes people happier, it's just currently unworkable for most.
I do wonder if you could successfully monetise napping as a service .
ie. got for a nap in podworld for a fiver or something.

[Opr]

I really do think a nap in the middle of the day makes people happier, it's just currently unworkable for most.
I do wonder if you could successfully monetise napping as a service .
ie. got for a nap in podworld for a fiver or something.

Science in the book believes the same. Most parts of the world which have the longest lifespan incorporate it into the day. It is incredibly beneficial overall for health. We probably all know this on some level and don't practice it but the whole cramming knowledge thing is very interesting in terms of how MRI's have shown the flow into the longterm parts of the brain only happens during a good sleep. It is why you might be able to retain information has crammed for an exam but it is never really transferred properly to other parts so if you are asked to do something a week later much of the information isn't available. The Siesta also help with relieving the workload into the short-term memory if it has been particularly overworked that day. It is an incredibly interesting read overall.

Edit - We generally block the urge to sleep with coffee but while it improves concentration it impairs higher brain function such as learning, memory, emotional stability and complex reasoning.

Opr

[dobby]

New season of last chance u on Netflix for anyone that's a fan. New school this season too in a small town in Kansas.

[Guest]

I have certainly been influenced by Derrida but I would say my primary philosophical influences are Kant, Kelsen, Hart and Dworkin. I certainly wouldn't say I subscribe to any particular school of thought on how we live, and I definitely wouldn't describe my views as dim (whether to mean uneducated or dark in outlook).
!

I'm familiar with Kant, he appears to crop up quite often in what I read.
Very little exposure to any of the others, if you could suggest a few books.
As I mentioned before I've been reading Dennett but definitely looking to branch out.

[oleras]

You now need to on top of that great sleep find a way to work a siesta into your day to live longer

Opr

Re:Sleep

I have said it before, but there will come a time when shift work will be considered as dangerous as working with asbestos.

[Guest]

Re:Sleep

I have said it before, but there will come a time when shift work will be considered as dangerous as working with asbestos.

The worst decision I ever made was taking a Night Trader role in BF. I went straight to NZ after leaving and it took me a while to feel right again.

Great book too, Denny likes to take credit for the book's success in Ireland

[Opr]

Re:Sleep

I have said it before, but there will come a time when shift work will be considered as dangerous as working with asbestos.

Agreed while not nearly as bad I'll take the grimness a step further with my old friend Bukowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV5ARyuxpow

Opr

[luckforsome]

...I'm working 12:30-21:00 the last year and I absolutely love it...I think I will struggle to ever go back to 09:00-17:30...

[Tar.Aldarion]

Science in the book believes the same. Most parts of the world which have the longest lifespan incorporate it into the day. It is incredibly beneficial overall for health. We probably all know this on some level and don't practice it but the whole cramming knowledge thing is very interesting in terms of how MRI's have shown the flow into the longterm parts of the brain only happens during a good sleep. It is why you might be able to retain information has crammed for an exam but it is never really transferred properly to other parts so if you are asked to do something a week later much of the information isn't available. The Siesta also help with relieving the workload into the short-term memory if it has been particularly overworked that day. It is an incredibly interesting read overall.

Edit - We generally block the urge to sleep with coffee but while it improves concentration it impairs higher brain function such as learning, memory, emotional stability and complex reasoning.

Opr

Have any links about this? Or is it a case that these people who nap are also happening to be people who sleep for long enough hours anyway, and would have less stressful lives, etc? Seems like a small piece of a very large puzzle to be attributing anything to napping so it would be nice to read about it.

Personally the idea of being tired or lacking energy during the day has always been pretty foreign to me, ascribing it to people who eat poorly, do not exercise daily, are overweight or have some sort of condition, similar with needing coffee in the morning and such - but that might be addiction.
Even come night I won't be tired generally and force sleep upon myself, although exercising for a few hours earlier in the day. I did however always note lack of energy and needing to sleep with the above criteria when I've satisfied them, such as injury to my back causing loss of sleep, weight gain and so forth.

[Lazare]

Sleep is a huge factor for athletes too, it's where all the recovery magic happens. You'll often hear of elites sleeping 12 hours a night during training cycles.

Read also (in relation to muscle recovery) that pre midnight sleeping has huge benefits over post midnight. Not sure of the science behind it but apparently sleeping 10pm to 6am is far more beneficial than sleeping midnight to 8am.

[Opr]

Have any links about this? Or is it a case that these people who nap are also happening to be people who sleep for long enough hours anyway, and would have less stressful lives, etc? Seems like a small piece of a very large puzzle to be attributing anything to napping so it would be nice to read about it.

Personally the idea of being tired or lacking energy during the day has always been pretty foreign to me, ascribing it to people who eat poorly, do not exercise daily, are overweight or have some sort of condition, similar with needing coffee in the morning and such - but that might be addiction.

The book is probably your best bet. The brain is doing all sorts of repair work throughout different stages of sleep which can be seen under lab conditions. It is mapping parts of your brain connections etc. He links the lack of sleep with loads of issues such as depression, Alzheimers etc. Just your normal neurological functions are impaired by lack of sleep. It is all from cited control study groups generally with MRI scans that they are doing to monitor relevant activities in the brain.

The actual need for a siesta is a biological thing that all humans are hardwired with which causes a dip in alertness but we abandoned due work practices. He quotes a study in Havard which had a group of 23,000 people who had regularly taken siestas but were stopping due to the pressure in Greece to abandon them. They were monitored for cardiovascular fitness where the mortality risk associated with health increased something like 37%. I haven't looked into the study any further so I am just pulling info from the book.

Opr

[Denny Crane]

I'm familiar with Kant, he appears to crop up quite often in what I read.
Very little exposure to any of the others, if you could suggest a few books.
As I mentioned before I've been reading Dennett but definitely looking to branch out.

The other three were mainly concerned with jurisprudence. Could be a bit niche.

[DeadParrot]

Prince Philip has kicked it if rumours are to believed.

[Strewelpeter]

Was listening to a sleep researcher talking recently about how dangerous alterations in sleep patterns are. I'll seee if I can root out a link to it later but the most memorable thing I took out of it was them saying that we do a giant experiment every spring when we shave an hours sleep from most people's sleep when the clocks go forward. Every year the week following sees a spike in heart attacks of IIRC c.3% and a similar spike in deaths.

[Tar.Aldarion]

The book is probably your best bet. The brain is doing all sorts of repair work throughout different stages of sleep which can be seen under lab conditions. It is mapping parts of your brain connections etc. He links the lack of sleep with loads of issues such as depression, Alzheimers etc. Just your normal neurological functions are impaired by lack of sleep. It is all from cited control study groups generally with MRI scans that they are doing to monitor relevant activities in the brain.

The actual need for a siesta is a biological thing that all humans are hardwired with which causes a dip in alertness but we abandoned due work practices. He quotes a study in Havard which had a group of 23,000 people who had regularly taken siestas but were stopping due to the pressure in Greece to abandon them. They were monitored for cardiovascular fitness where the mortality risk associated with health increased something like 37%. I haven't looked into the study any further so I am just pulling info from the book.

Opr

Thanks, it's the study itself I'd be interested in as I can interpret that first hand. Will look it up at some point.

[Kayroo]

I'm familiar with Kant, he appears to crop up quite often in what I read.
Very little exposure to any of the others, if you could suggest a few books.
As I mentioned before I've been reading Dennett but definitely looking to branch out.

I personally think H.L.A Hart is the best of that bunch but aside from Kant they are all legal philosophers (jurisprudential philosophers). Hart was an amazing man. He worked with MI5 and MI6 during the Second World War and shared an office with one of the Cambridge Spies, Anthony Blunt.

His book, "The Concept of Law" specifically addresses issues of morality and law and how they can diverge and overlap. It is part of a number of works, including Kelsen, Dworkin, and to a lesser extent Williams, that inform the developing theories of law across the twentieth century.