Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[6starpool]

Your stance seems to be softening somewhat on whether this will blow over or not

The bolded bit in the second post is just nonsense though. Keeping people at home in China is the only thing has has prevented this from already being rampant right across the globe.

The way they were able to close down an entire country of over 1 billion people for over a week was equally terrifying as it was amazing.

Everything that has come out about stopping the spread on the virus states that the most effective method is non pharma/non medical, i.e. isolate the people effected so they can't spead.

This will be the case until a vaccince has been found in approx 12 months time unless you live in Hitch's version of the space-time continuum where the cure has already been found (Sorry Hitch - couldn't resist!)

It's a bit more persistent than predicted for sure, but the whole country can't just decide to stay at home. Well they can of course, but the place would go to shit pretty quickly.

Most countries can't lock things down like China and while precautions should be taken where they can, and people should definitely practice better hygiene and stay off work of you have it or travelled through a heavily affected area, people just deciding to stay at home or keeping their kids at home for no practical reason is a bit silly to me.

[Hectorjelly]

The article starts by talking about Japan imploded in the 1980s, which it didn't. Japan slowed down because it reached its growth capacity.

Chinese debt, like Japanese debt, is primarily local. They've thus no innate debt problem. A debt problem is when you owe people outside your country debt.

Plus they've just massive reserves to protect against anything catastrophic.

High debt is a natural feature of growing quickly. Often desirable as helps accelerate the market grab. Has its risks obv.

I think the attitude is wrong in any case. China is a fascinating experiment that it's worth seeing the bits they're doing right and learning from it.

Like it's mad how Europe has pretty much minimal tech innovation despite being the entire future. What are we doing wrong and why are we letting China and US write the future? Its a concern as this is our place to live for the foreseeable future and due to being part of the euro zone we're all in it together.

That article is one of many that all express the same sentiment.

The problem with the Chinese 'miracle' is a lot of it is self-reported by a totalitarian state which no oversight and a history of lying about everything constantly (as we have all seen recently). For years it's widely believed that their GDP has little or no relation to reality. The true test of whether we have anything to learn or not will come when they go through some tough times.

https://www.datadriveninvestor.com/2019/09/22/four-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-trust-chinas-gdp-data/

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35341869

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[Charlie Sheen]

Would it though?

Maybe there's something wrong with that then, that we don't have the flexibility to act to protect the most vulnerable in society from infection (and death). Google has managed to shut down their entire 8000 workforce for tomorrow in Ireland without a bother and everyone will just work from home. China, Japan, now France are teaching classes remotely through kids over the Internet. Maybe we should build in a bit of leeway into society.

Moving onto a more positive example, I love how French shops can shut on Sundays and most shut for the month of August. Once you get used to it, you realise that things don't have to be always 'on' in an economy and they'll still work themselves out.

Large chunk of the population have no sick pay, little savings and work in jobs that can't be performed remotely. Staying at home is not an option when the bills don't stop coming in for these people. What you did just isn't an option for everyone.

In a perfect world, yes everyone would be able to but we don't have that right now.

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[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah and that's the problem! Sick pay here in France is paid by government so everyone has it automatically in the same level of entitlement. Although it does require people being willing to pay for it in the form of social charges which I don't think Irish people are.

That's great for the people in France but in most places that isn't the case. Currently society would become a mess if everyone was told to stay at home with no income coming in.

Anyway the thread on boards is a laugh, full on lunatics and trolls. There has been 1 confirmed case in Ireland, the run on bread is coming very soon. Yet to get one in Calgary so far and overall Canada's numbers have been rising very slowly since the first confirmed case was on January 25th, which seems kind of suspect.

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[Guest]

Science breaking down the reports coming from China in relation to their successes and failures: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...ther-countries

One member of the visiting WHO team:

Two widely used mobile phone apps, AliPay and WeChat—which in recent years have replaced cash in China—helped enforce the restrictions, because they allow the government to keep track of people’s movements and even stop people with confirmed infections from traveling. “Every person has sort of a traffic light system,” says mission member Gabriel Leung, dean of the Li Ka Shing Faculty of Medicine at the University of Hong Kong. Color codes on mobile phones—in which green, yellow, or red designate a person’s health status—let guards at train stations and other checkpoints know who to let through.

The report does mention some areas where China needs to improve, including the need “to more clearly communicate key data and developments internationally.” But it is mum on the coercive nature of its control measures and the toll they have exacted. “The one thing that’s completely glossed over is the whole human rights dimension,” says Devi Sridhar, an expert on global public health at the University of Edinburgh.

“To me, as somebody who has spent a lot of time in China, it comes across as incredibly naïve—and if not naïve, then willfully blind to some of the approaches being taken,” Phelan says.
“Whether it works is not the only measure of whether something is a good public health control measure,” Phelan says. “There are plenty of things that would work to stop an outbreak that we would consider abhorrent in a just and free society.”

[LuckyLloyd]

Seems to me the WHO have just looked at the disease and the reaction and been straight up in their assessment. The human rights commentary is emotional, not scientific. A virus that wipes out 15% of 80+ population or those with pre existing conditions but 0.2% of under 40’s can only be stopped by enforcing draconian measures that impinge upon people’s freedoms. Because the cohort not at risk will act selfishly.

[Guest]

It's in bloody DCU now! Someone carted out of residences by ambulance guys in hazmat gear. Bollocks.

Apparently it all just because a guy dropped a weight on his foot in the gym! Ah social media rumours...

[Raoul Duke III]

Yeah and that's the problem! Sick pay here in France is paid by government so everyone has it automatically in the same level of entitlement. Although it does require people being willing to pay for it in the form of social charges which I don't think Irish people are.

Most Irish people are net recipients from the Exchequer already so you would need a tax change that is practically impossible (as no-one would vote for it).

[Guest]

Seems to me the WHO have just looked at the disease and the reaction and been straight up in their assessment. The human rights commentary is emotional, not scientific. A virus that wipes out 15% of 80+ population or those with pre existing conditions but 0.2% of under 40’s can only be stopped by enforcing draconian measures that impinge upon people’s freedoms. Because the cohort not at risk will act selfishly.

Well of course the commentary on human rights is emotive, how often do conversations regarding human rights focus on scientific evidence?
Even devoid of scientific evidence, the conversation regarding the clear impingement of peoples' human rights does not make the conversation irrelevant.

You may feel that draconian measures enforced by an authoritarian government is justifiable but I don't believe most people agree.
Additionally, given there is little evidence to my knowledge to show that this outbreak can "only" be stopped by enforcing draconian measures, I am inclined to be skeptical of singing the praises of the Chinese authorities yet.

As the article above states, perhaps the model of Singapore & Hong Kong may offer an equally effective solution without the shortcomings given; “There has been a similar degree of rigor and discipline but applied in a much less draconian manner.

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[oleras]

Spent a decent part of watching that waiting for the punchline. But there doesn't seem to be one?! Is that right, or was there something that was meant to be fundamentally funny that I missed?

You never seen "Stop making sense" ?

[Guest]

The Book of Mormon coming to Dublin, unsure if it will sell out but maybe worth waiting list anyway: https://thebookofmormonmusical.com/d...U4h0HWq19o_dd4

[LuckyLloyd]

Well of course the commentary on human rights is emotive, how often do conversations regarding human rights focus on scientific evidence?
Even devoid of scientific evidence, the conversation regarding the clear impingement of peoples' human rights does not make the conversation irrelevant.

You may feel that draconian measures enforced by an authoritarian government is justifiable but I don't believe most people agree.
Additionally, given there is little evidence to my knowledge to show that this outbreak can "only" be stopped by enforcing draconian measures, I am inclined to be skeptical of singing the praises of the Chinese authorities yet.

As the article above states, perhaps the model of Singapore & Hong Kong may offer an equally effective solution without the shortcomings given; “There has been a similar degree of rigor and discipline but applied in a much less draconian manner.

Most people won’t agree with draconian measures alright, because they want to go down the pub on Saturday as normal. Thousands were annoyed that their rugby match was cancelled and there’s a lot of lobbying going on to keep the St Patrick’s festival because of the money at stake. What most people want when it comes to an event like this should be irrelevant.

What do we *need* to do to protect those vulnerable in our society from this virus. What do we *need* to do to prevent our health system becoming overwhelmed.

Comparisons with other areas that didn’t face such a wide spread of the virus don’t wash with me tbh. Italy and South Korea seem headed to the level of spread China faced when it got its game face on. Iran is probably way beyond that point already. If those countries tackle this without a collective national call to action, fair enough. For now, we have the WHO praising China’s measures for suppressing their epidemic.

In my opinion a very serious discussion should be taking place across the EU now on what we’re willing to do to combat this. Because decisions will most likely need to be made soon.

[Raoul Duke III]

I find it odd that people are praising the murderous dictatorship of the country that launched this entire epidemic upon humanity for their approach to containing said epidemic.

Maybe start with 'properly regulate your fucking food chain'. Until then GTFO.

[LuckyLloyd]

To put it another way, seems to be the height of academic triviality to be wondering about free movement, free assembly and free speech when curtailing same and putting the country on a war footing prevented many hundreds of thousands of people getting sick (if not millions) and thereby prevented tens of thousands of people becoming severely or critically ill. The latter is far more important than the former.

We need to be getting into the right mindset here while hoping we don’t need to apply it. Collective responsibility and the greater good. Fuck the few quid for a few weeks.

[LuckyLloyd]

I find it odd that people are praising the murderous dictatorship of the country that launched this entire epidemic upon humanity for their approach to containing said epidemic.

Maybe start with 'properly regulate your fucking food chain'. Until then GTFO.

I said that yesterday in my initial post on the matter - they deserve significant reproach for that. My guess is they’ll embark on improvements in that area following this.

But ‘China bad therefore everything they do is bad and to be ignored’ is infantile reasoning.

[Strewelpeter]

I'm not so sure we've really thought through what 'human rights' are.

Free water and a house for each of the chisselers

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[Raoul Duke III]

They have 20% of the worlds population. 20% of epidemics will start there just as a base rate.

First SARS, now Covid?

They have an appallingly compromised food chain.

[Raoul Duke III]

I said that yesterday in my initial post on the matter - they deserve significant reproach for that. My guess is they’ll embark on improvements in that area following this.

But ‘China bad therefore everything they do is bad and to be ignored’ is infantile reasoning.

Ah yes, they clearly learned from SARS.

And, 'infantile reasoning'? Really. You already got called for something similar with hotspur last week.

[Guest]

To put it another way, seems to be the height of academic triviality to be wondering about free movement, free assembly and free speech when curtailing same and putting the country on a war footing prevented many hundreds of thousands of people getting sick (if not millions) and thereby prevented tens of thousands of people becoming severely or critically ill. The latter is far more important than the former.

We need to be getting into the right mindset here while hoping we don’t need to apply it. Collective responsibility and the greater good. Fuck the few quid for a few weeks.

You seem to think that the suppression of human rights is a prerequisite for addressing the issue, there is no proof that is the only means of addressing the outbreak.

I'd be quite confident in my belief that the measures China have implemented extend beyond preventing people going to the pub and cancelling sporting events. I have no issue with those measures but we both know the restrictions China are being applauded for extend far beyond that.

We *need* to address the issue to the best of our ability but as the article states we don't *need* to be draconian to address it.

I suspect plenty of discussions are taking place but they're exactly that; discussions, not a top down authoritarian directive where the masses have no input.

I'm not so sure we've really thought through what 'human rights' are.

I would imagine the most basic human rights should be things like access to housing, food, healthcare, and education.

Things like freedom of speech strikes me as a bizarre human right to focus on when you don't have the more basic human rights.

Lord Sumption touches on the annexation of various rights to the UN court's criteria in recent years. Personal data and surveillance is one of the more recent topics which I believe he questions as a "human right".

Obviously the questions around China in this instance extend beyond surveillance and freedom of speech. Fair to assume that the current picture we have is not all to the story. If it was simply surveillance and freedom of speech that I had questions about then I wouldn't be overly concerned but my questions extend beyond that.

The example we all know of is the Uyghur's who have been persecuted in China since 2014 and possibly even longer but their situation was not highlighted globally until 2018 when the BBC released a variety satelitte imagery.

They're now being forced to work in labour factories for international brands, 2 years on with the propaganda machine still churning out reports it's "voluntary":https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51697800

China's means of containment are not applicable here in a Western Democracy so looking towards them for guidance in how best to address this appears unfeasible given they can't be applied.

I simply think that praising China for there response is premature given their track record in human rights recent years(the basic ones you are speaking to), the overt draconian measures they are currently using and the questions around the validity of their reporting.

[Tar.Aldarion]

First SARS, now Covid?

They have an appallingly compromised food chain.

This will be solved in a decade. As Winston Churchill wrote in 1931 (I know he is your favourite source):

"With a greater knowledge of what are called hormones, i.e. the chemical messengers in our blood, it will be possible to control growth. We shall escape the absurdity of growing a whole chicken in order to eat the breast or wing, by growing these parts separately under a suitable medium."

[Strewelpeter]

Maybe start with 'properly regulate your fucking food chain'. Until then GTFO.

Not really, unless you want to stop animal agriculture.

Viruses evolve and hop from animal to animal all the time and occasionally they find a way to survive in a different host and occasionally the will cause just the right balance between causing harm and not killing their new hosts and occasionally those new hosts are humans.

That this happens is nothing special it is always going to happen where enough humans are in contact with enough animals. That we see it happen in SE Asia is a function the size of human and animal populations there.
Don't forget this has been happening for ever and new viruses usually die out within a community but it is the very recent development of ubiquitous worldwide travel that makes the global spread inevitable.

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[oleras]

Yeah. But this is just a dodgy version of that. Unless I'm missing something.

David Byrne in a nutshell...

[Raoul Duke III]

The IPB Cheltenham Tipping Comp prize fund has reached four figures.

That could buy you 2,631 cans of Tesco baked beans. Something to ponder.

[LuckyLloyd]

Ah yes, they clearly learned from SARS.

And, 'infantile reasoning'? Really. You already got called for something similar with hotspur last week.

Yeah I did get called out, so what.

We have the WHO strongly asserting that China’s response has been impressive and everyone else needs to take heed and see what elements of it they can apply themselves. Praise of China for anything doesn’t fit certain narratives but we really need to be asking if we’re ready for where this thing may go. Part of that is hard actions that China have taken around restriction of movement, enforcing isolation protocols and increasing hospital management capacity (from initial testing to intensive care). But part of it also is the mindset China have exhibited: a sense of it being a national project to stop the virus spreading at great economic expense.

I’m not buying the EU / US response at the moment, which seems to be more about avoiding negative economic sentiment than it is about fighting a virus with the potential to kill millions of people while bringing health services to their knees.

[DeadParrot]

They built a massive hospital in five days! They clearly learned something about containment. They also have ICU beds to handle 0.4% of the population to treat the serious cases. Western countries at best are at about 0.1%.

Hospital

[Solksjaer!]

In my view the % of people that will die from it as opposed to dying from the process of isolating/controlling it in China would be a lot higher than in most other countries. So when a ‘new’ virus is alerted in China , as a Chinese man I’m thinking. FCUCK, I’m deffo keeping a low profile I don’t want to be treated like Lee (rip) down the road. This fear will also lead to the spread. Perhaps we in the west might be more willing to report having the virus and having treatment and precautions taken due to our expectations of how we will be treated. We’ll see in the next two weeks though won’t we.

(Insert trivia)
David Byrne is one off . BELLX1 owe him a lot .



Human rights include dignity HH, being welded into your house for example is not dignified. It reminds of the leper colonies.

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[hotspur]

Human rights include many desirable things that we should all strive to achieve. Theres a hierarchy of them though imo. First get the basic things done.

There are many who think that freedom is the most basic right. That people are willing to die for it suggests that it may not easily slot into a hierarchy between good housing and good education for many.

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[Guest]

I recommended it last year. Probably not the the most scientifically rigorous book but pretty interesting.

The author is quite good and his recovery from a little stumble a few years ago is quite commendable.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/sep/14/johann-hari-apologises-orwell-prize

He's a good podcast guest too.

[Solksjaer!]

Do you have a recent(-ish) example of that?

I suspect you'll find it very hard to find a case where economic conditions are not the primary driver. For example all the Arab Spring.

Freedom is a big word and encompasses quite a lot look at the Gaza strip What are they fighting for ?

[eamonhonda]

New Caribou album for anyone interested.

Also the main man banged out another amazing essential mix to coincide

Also Steve Spacek album been enjoying from recently

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[Dice75]

New Caribou album for anyone interested.

Also the main man banged out another amazing essential mix to coincide

Also Steve Spacek album been enjoying from recently

Lovely stuff

[hotspur]

Anyone an idea of a good easy-to-use website for mocking up an app?

See mockplus on a few lists, but don't really know much about it.

Fluidui.com

I've never used it, it's just that a friend of mine owns it.

[Flushdraw]

Anyone an idea of a good easy-to-use website for mocking up an app?

See mockplus on a few lists, but don't really know much about it.

We use these 2 in work, but mostly for wireframing websites, so not sure it will do what you want.

https://www.invisionapp.com/

https://balsamiq.com/

[Solksjaer!]

Well not sure thats a great example. They're fighting specifically for their land back. They're actually free already.

Really to isolate the effect of freedom from economic reasons, we'd need to isolate a situation where people would be worse-off as a result, except that they would have freedom. E.g. like the Scottish referendum case, although they choose economic safety over freedom.

I think, specifically for freedom, theres a vanishingly small number of cases. Ireland was an example due to being worse off after independence but valuing freedom more, but the fact that you have to go so far back into history suggests the value of freedom isn't really all that valued by the vast majority of people in this generation. Or at least it isn't to the same extent that the basic human rights driven by economics are valued.

No time to debate but I'd warrant the affected people being searched going to work might consider their freedom impinged. Also the black struggle in the good old US is not dipping to far into history . The collapse of the iron curtain. Apartheid? Freedom over economy.

[eamonhonda]

Lovely stuff

Unsure if sarcasm. I hope you're dancin' round the gaff to the few tunes

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[Closed_Account]

If anyone has any contacts within the legal game or a foot in that kind of world could you PM me please.

[pokerhand]

If anyone has any contacts within the legal game or a foot in that kind of world could you PM me please.

Kayroo no?

[Kayroo]

If anyone has any contacts within the legal game or a foot in that kind of world could you PM me please.

I know you said the first time you played with me that you wanted to strangle me but I feel this level of snub is unduly harsh...

[rounders123]

Winnings payout shocker?. Time for speculation I think.

[Lao Lao]

2nd case confirmed in Ireland.

A female in the east of the country who recently returned from Northern Italy, same as the first case but no reports yet if they are connected from the same trip abroad.

[Wombatman]

2nd case confirmed in Ireland.

A female in the east of the country who recently returned from Northern Italy, same as the first case but no reports yet if they are connected from the same trip abroad.

Corona thread just crashed boards.ie by the look of things.

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[LuckyLloyd]

Not cancelling St Patrick’s day celebrations is madness. Do it before people start travelling.

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