Bad Beat/Moaning/Venting - pray for Lazare

[RichieM]

What are you basing that on? La Liga and to a lesser extent Bundesliga are more successful in the Europa league than the premier league which suggests more depth to the leagues. It's just familiarity with the premiership that gives Irish/English fans that opinion that its stronger at the bottom. Bullshit Sky propaganda doesn't help either. Also Barca Real don't rotate their stars that often either.

Just on the matches I watch and skimming through betting sites really. I cant claim to study the Bundesleague or La liga matches outside the top games in a huge amount of detail and I know more about the PL than any other.

In terms of the players the the mid level premier league teams have been able to secure this season have been guys who would slot into Ajax or PSG and so get champions league football.

On my point you are not looking at if Byern could do well in the premier league which they obv would. It is more looking at how Mainz or Frankfurt would do against West ham or Swansea. I would say pretty poorly.

[bohsman]

On my point you are not looking at if Byern could do well in the premier league which they obv would. It is more looking at how Mainz or Frankfurt would do against West ham or Swansea. I would say pretty poorly.

If West Ham or Swansea could win a match in Europe they could get to a stage where they would meet and we could find out.

[newbie2]

For years I've been telling the wife not to let babies wander around with no nappy on. In case they piss all over the floor.

Yesterday she did just that and the fucking youngest shat everywhere.

Brag: I was right
Beat: There's shit all over the bedoom carpet
varience: None - apparently it is my fault.

[GingerMilla]

I'm not even sure what point you were trying to make to be honest. The premier league is not tougher to win than Bundesliga, Bayern would absolutely hose up in the Premier League this season, and Dortmund and Levercusan would be very competitive up there too. Arsenal have a much better chance of winning the Prem than they would the Bundesliga(largely due to presence of Bayern)

Fixture congestion is similarly bad in all big leagues, if anything in the likes of Serie A with their longer winter break its even more congested around Champions league games. I'm not sure why you're making the distinction with Arsenal.

Well it's all about opinions at the end of the day especially when we're on about sport.

I think your typical premiership game takes a lot more out of players, physically and mentally than your typical foreign league game. Every loose ball is contested vigorously.

Chelsea won a recent champions league with backs to the wall defending and Man Utd last won the tournament with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez up front and Ferdinand and Vidic in the rearguard. Serious operators.

Arsenal, on the other hand, will never win the champions league under the current regime as they cannot reproduce the same intensity during the group stages sandwiched between league games. I find Arsenal very easy on the eye as they are thrilling to watch,playing with such great gusto. However, their playing style counts against them in what is supposed to be a showpiece tournament. You cannot fight a battle on two fronts and Wenger prioritises winning the league. I think they'll go close this year.

I used Arsenal as an example because they generally get knocked out at the last sixteen stage, courtesy of poor performances during the group games and eventually coming second in the group and drawing Barcelona or Bayern Munich at that juncture. The point is that they cannot give their all in the champions league and also compete for the premiership.

[The Situation]

Just on the matches I watch and skimming through betting sites really. I cant claim to study the Bundesleague or La liga matches outside the top games in a huge amount of detail and I know more about the PL than any other.

In terms of the players the the mid level premier league teams have been able to secure this season have been guys who would slot into Ajax or PSG and so get champions league football.

On my point you are not looking at if Byern could do well in the premier league which they obv would. It is more looking at how Mainz or Frankfurt would do against West ham or Swansea. I would say pretty poorly.

If the English teams performances in Europe proves anything last few years it's signing foreign players chasing a big payday does not guarantee success at all. Theres probably more depth of talented individuals in the Premiership, but that's a very different thing from having better overall teams.

[RichieM]

If the English teams performances in Europe proves anything last few years it's signing foreign players chasing a big payday does not guarantee success at all. Theres probably more depth of talented individuals in the Premiership, but that's a very different thing from having better overall teams.

If the Spanish teams performances have shown anything its that signing Messi, Ronadlo, Bale and Suarez for even bigger money does = success.

The fact that the lower teams have to develop players because they cant afford Caybee or Payet to come in dosn't mean they are doing well. They have Ronaldo scoring 5 goals in a match against them.

[Solskjaer]

Can't find the ol reading glasses so most of what you guys are saying is just some blurry nonsense. As for the Prem League vis a vis any other league. They play far too many games. The League cup also needs to be sent to Elba . 'twas always a poor mans FAcup

Spelling errors are expected so use some grammar tolerence for an old blind man.

[AndyFatBastard]

The Champions League is a sit and go that runs once a year. The best team will probably win it. The best teams will probably not go out early. But there will be huge amounts of unpredictability, so using it as a measure of success is distinctly suboptimal.

[Raoul Duke III]

The Champions League is a sit and go that runs once a year. The best team will probably win it. The best teams will probably not go out early. But there will be huge amounts of unpredictability, so using it as a measure of success is distinctly suboptimal.

Really? What's a better of measure?

[Frossach]

I got the free money €100 Water Conservation Grant today.

[Emmet]

Good piece on the VW Emissions thing https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...software-hacks

I assumed we'd be seeing disparities in the orders of 10s of percents between 'test data' and 'real world', but this is fairly outrageous!

[Lord Sir Banter]

whats a sound and easy to use blog site?

[AndyFatBastard]

Really? What's a better of measure?

There aren't any. It's a terrible measure. It's the best one we've got. Stop arguing about it because the argument will always be stupid.

[AndyFatBastard]

whats a sound and easy to use blog site?

Blogspot.

[Raoul Duke III]

There aren't any. It's a terrible measure. It's the best one we've got. Stop arguing about it because the argument will always be stupid.

OK. You're the one arguing over it!

Bit of a novel argument too I would have to say. I am quite happy to say that performance in the elite competition is a measure of status\success. For last decade, Barcelona no 1 obviously - don't think anyone seriously disputes this?

[NewApproach]

I'd be utterly amazed if this extends only to VW.

[AndyFatBastard]

OK. You're the one arguing over it!

I'm not arguing. You're arguing. I'm having a discussion.

[Iago]

OK. You're the one arguing over it!

Bit of a novel argument too I would have to say. I am quite happy to say that performance in the elite competition is a measure of status\success. For last decade, Barcelona no 1 obviously - don't think anyone seriously disputes this?

While it's seen as the elite competition in European football there are a number of factors that would prevent me from using it as the yardstick for success.

In no particular order

1. There aren't enough games to genuinely assess whether or not 1 team is significantly and consistently better than another. It's a crapshoot with one 90 minute period potentially affecting the outcome. Stoke beat Liverpool 6-1 last season in 90 minutes. Had that been the first leg of a CL tie Liverpool would be out of the competition, however Liverpool are clearly the better team.

2. The luck of the draw means that elite teams could go 3-4-5 seasons without ever meeting in the competition. How can we accurately gauge who is better if they only play each other once every couple of years?

3. Prioritisation. A number of teams who qualify for the CL know that they have no realistic chance of winning it and therefore priortise other competitions over it. Not as widespread as the Europa League obviously but still a factor.

3a. Even some teams who do have a realistic chance of winning it will field weakened teams for reasons of practicality (have already qualified from the group or have a "bigger" match at the weekend, e.g. Arsenal last night) or because of injuries/suspensions or potential suspensions etc

4. There's a 3 month gap between group stages and knockout phases. In a league format that wouldn't happen and a team would be rated on a full year allowing for bad luck with injuries/form etc. In the CL if you've been unlucky with injuries/suspensions/form in the first 4 weeks you don't get a chance to make up for that in the same year. you're out of the competition and have to wait until the following year for a shot at it.

5. You can in effect win just 2 games (excluding penalties) in an entire CL competition and still win it overall. These doesn't seem very "elite" to me, and means that teams can be very lucky and still win it. See Chelsea in 2012 for example.


All told the best, and only, way to reliablity rate the European football echelon is by having a pan-European league. In the absence of that we can use the CL as a barometer and aligned with national league performance come to some conclusions but they are imperfect at best.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Pat Mustard]

just read that eve kerton article....sometimes i hate this place for the stuff it shows me. wrote a letter to the editor...

[Emmet]

I'd be utterly amazed if this extends only to VW.

Car C in the results above is a BMW X5.

The 'real world' test is broadly in line with their test results there.

But yes, it would be quite surprising if they were in it alone.

[Jibzzzz]

whats a sound and easy to use blog site?

You thinking about starting a blog m8?

[Lord Sir Banter]

You thinking about starting a blog m8?

nah, it was for a friend who wanted something simple and had started using wordpress.
Do you think I should m8? What will I write about?

[The Situation]

People overstate the crapshoot nature of the Champions league, it is a variable but not massively so. Like if you were to compare semi finalalists with their outright odds the last 10 years there hasn't been that many surprises, the favs get there far more often than not, obviously league's do have a lower degree of uncertainty to them and a better barometer but if you're using the crapshoot excuse to completely excuse English performance in this competition in recent years or try to poo poo la ligas superiority I'd be raising a serious eyebrow at your judgement.

[cardshark202]

A lot of absolutely shocking opinions today.

'EPL has gone to shite'
'None of the teams are as good as Real, Barca or Bayern, therefore the league is a joke in Europe'
'It's the lack of British players. and too many foreign mercenaries'

Feels like I've been reading a tabloid or something lol.

In actual fact, so far this season the coefficient gap between the EPL and Serie A has actually widened slightly, so the chances of the EPL losing it's 4th place is not so likely.
Also some previous comment referred to the top clubs in the EPL conceding more goals against the lesser teams than they would have before. That is meant to illustrate that the league is weaker and the top teams aren't as strong. Conversely you could say the league is stronger because the lower teams now have much greater attacking talent.

Think back 10 years ago and how many lower teams actually played football against one of the top teams? They almost always parked the bus and made it very physical. Now all these teams have players with high technical ability so all these teams can actually play possession football now if the manager set's his team up that way.

Now, whether the EPL is much stronger or weaker than the German or Spanish counterparts is up for debate. I would say the top three teams in europe are Real Barca and Bayern, but after that probably the top 4 British teams come next, followed by/along with the likes of PSG, Atletico, Juve, etc....
I would say, for example that Spurs vs Atleti in a two leg tie would be close to a coinflip

Looking further down the table: Who thinks Sporting de Gijon would comfortably beat Norwich, for example? Norwich has far more internationals in it's squad. I would probably give Norwich the edge in that matchup but I don't know a whole lot about a lot of the players for Gijon.

Point is, claiming that the EPL is really weak now based upon a couple of years of poor results in the CL is not really looking at things clearly.

The EPL has way more money than the other leagues so I would suggest that it's more likely to be overall at least as strong(or very close to as strong) as any other league in the world.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[dobby]

Honda/OPR, downloaded VLC, working perfectly, even the things that wouldn't work on KM Player. Tyvm.

Next question. First Row won't let me watch their streams unless I turn my ad block off. Any other sites I can use and keep ad block on or are most sites doing this now? I noticed afdah.tv are doing it for tv and movies too.

[Solskjaer]

Love the idea of hot-boxing weed. Fill up an enclosed space with smoke and then dive in until baked.


Some random hotbox photos:

I remember years ago when the midnight at the Olympia gigs were a plenty. The Aussie doors were playing. The whole of the Olympia was one huge hotbox. I got completely passively stoned and spent the walk through town singing 'show me the way to the next whiskey bar' to baffled tourists. (oh don't ask why) I didn't light up one spliff that night. No way 16 pints of Guinness did that to me.

[Lord Sir Banter]

FAO Hitch et al.

Why is it some hons degree courses are 3 years and some 4? Also they all seem to be 60 credits per year. Is there anything/much stopping me from finishing year 2 (it's a 3 year ordinary or 4 year hons) where I am and switching into a three year elsewhere and scooping the hons a year early?

[Lord Sir Banter]

just the 16

[Solskjaer]

btw. How's the babby Hitch ?

[6starpool]

Does anyone have a stream for the BT Goals show? I don't have control of the telly tonight to watch it and would like to watch that again, but can't find anything in my usual places.

Edit: Never mind, found it in time to see the Wolfsburg goal.

[Guest]

Spurs>Atletico is a fairly wild assumption. Atletico were within a minute of winning it last year and Spurs struggling in the Europa.

How can you slot Chelsea, Man City, Man U, Arsenal in ahead of teams that make it to the business end every year ahead of them?

Looking at the 2nd tier teams I'd easily fancy Valencia, Villareal, Sevilla, Bilbao over Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton over a large sample.

[Guest]

Balls missed the start cause of typing that post

[The Situation]

Looking further down the table: Who thinks Sporting de Gijon would comfortably beat Norwich, for example? Norwich has far more internationals in it's squad. I would probably give Norwich the edge in that matchup but I don't know a whole lot about a lot of the players for Gijon.


.

How many Norwich players would make the the Spanish squad? If the Gijon players all had Irish/Scotish grannies they'd have lots of internationals.

[shano_88]

Does anyone have a stream for the BT Goals show? I don't have control of the telly tonight to watch it and would like to watch that again, but can't find anything in my usual places.

Edit: Never mind, found it in time to see the Wolfsburg goal.

got a link?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[dobby]

Schweinsteiger must have an old score to settle with Arnold.

[cardshark202]

Spurs>Atletico is a fairly wild assumption. Atletico were within a minute of winning it last year and Spurs struggling in the Europa.

How can you slot Chelsea, Man City, Man U, Arsenal in ahead of teams that make it to the business end every year ahead of them?

Looking at the 2nd tier teams I'd easily fancy Valencia, Villareal, Sevilla, Bilbao over Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton over a large sample.

Every year? Didn't realise Juve made it to the business end every year. Not recently anyway bar the final last year.

I never suggested Spurs were better than Atletico. I was just saying it would be a close enough tie over two legs. Don't think it's that wild an assumption. yeah Spurs have struggled in Europe but looking at how the teams match up right now I think it's pretty close.

I don't have anything against La Liga or any other league, so it's not like I have any sort of agenda.

I don't agree that there is a massive gap between the leagues that some are suggesting. I think it's pretty close.

[Solskjaer]

drugs are baaaad (well not always) Imagine beng inside this guys head for a few wee hours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NajIL_zNQno

[cardshark202]

How many Norwich players would make the the Spanish squad? If the Gijon players all had Irish/Scotish grannies they'd have lots of internationals.

Didn't realise most of the Gijon players were in the Spanish squad. So your first question makes no sense.

Your second point does makes some sense perhaps though. Yeah it's hard to get into the squad of one of the best international teams in the world.

I was saying that again it's a close matchup, no? I give the edge to Norwich but I could be wrong. No way it would be a cakewalk for either team though

[Guest]

Take PSG, Atletico, Borussia, Juve vs Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and assign each team 1 point for getting to the quarters 2 for semi, 3 for Final since 10/11 and you get 11 for the English teams and 15 for the others, so it would be tough to say you can put all 4 English clubs above them. That gap becomes bigger if you look at more recent years.

[TheJiggaman]

just read that eve kerton article....sometimes i hate this place for the stuff it shows me. wrote a letter to the editor...

What article is this?

I know Eve Kerton - Would like to see it.

NM found it - Yeah, you can smell the arrogance off it.

[The Situation]

Didn't realise most of the Gijon players were in the Spanish squad. So your first question makes no sense.

Point being that using their international caps as some sort of way of claiming superiority is utterly futile in this instance.

Your assessment of Spurs vs Atleti is so off the wall it's probably not worth engaging further in debate. They won la liga and made the cl final a year ago in an era of Barca and Madrid superpowers, competing strongly at the top again this year. You talk about how the teams match up, Atleti are and have been so much stronger than the sum of their parts last few years, the exact opposite of the top English sides, underachieving badly comparitive to the strength of thier squads.

[Guest]

Old Trafford crowd sounds like a cricket crowd tonight,more atmosphere on the moon. Another thing you get with the English teams
They need to accommodate more far right ultra supporters like they do on the continent. Those guys know how to get an intimidating chant going

[Dice75]

drugs are baaaad (well not always) Imagine beng inside this guys head for a few wee hours.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NajIL_zNQno

Think I read that Heath Ledger based his Joker character on Waits

[RichieM]

I don't have anything against La Liga or any other league, so it's not like I have any sort of agenda.

I don't agree that there is a massive gap between the leagues that some are suggesting. I think it's pretty close.

Everyone agrees that bayern, real and barca are a good step ahead of everyone.

Most agree that the mid level teams in the epl are as strong if not stronger than their la liga or bundes counterparts.

Does this not show that the gap between the top and the bottom of the Spanish and German leagues is bigger than the top/bottom of the epl?

Pretty sure it does.

[cardshark202]

Point being that using their international caps as some sort of way of claiming superiority is utterly futile in this instance.

Your assessment of Spurs vs Atleti is so off the wall it's probably not worth engaging further in debate. They won la liga and made the cl final a year ago in an era of Barca and Madrid superpowers, competing strongly at the top again this year. You talk about how the teams match up, Atleti are and have been so much stronger than the sum of their parts last few years, the exact opposite of the top English sides, underachieving badly comparitive to the strength of thier squads.

Well Atleti just lost at home to Benfica so they are now a joke in Europe I guess.


Also I never suggested Spurs against Atleti from last year or a year before. I am saying the current spurs team vs Atleti is a close matchup. How big of a gap do you think there is?

You even used the word 'underachieve' which would lend more weight to my position. Yeah some of the English sides have underachieved recently, which means most people expect better and their teams are stronger than their short term results

[oleras]

Its like 2 bald people arguing over a comb...

[Opr]

Out of interest what is unfair about the Spanish tv money distribution, seems fair to me that teams can negotiate their own deals and therefore get paid in line with the amount of people who want to watch their games.

If the EPL method of sharing TV money is so much better then why isn't there also a demand to share say merchandising income or shirt sponsorship income?

Kind of devils advocating - I've never been sure if the Spanish way is actually as wrong as is claimed, or if its just the English thing of thinking the dago types ought to be forced to do everything the English way.

This is quite an interesting question. I do think it is unfair in Spain but when I typed that post I just meant to infer a more even distribution. I guess your views on the subject will generally come down to your political leanings in that one is quite socialist while the other is quite capitalist in nature. I have actually seem the premier league compared to a welfare system I guess if you believe it is right that half the world live in poverty to support the rest of us, the wealth divide grows ever larger every day, etc then it looks like the Spanish system is working

I will say I think one of the only reasons the Spanish league remains in such good shape is down to the fact they have always produced technically proficient players so they have an abundance of cheap labour for the poor, without which the model would fall apart. The English league doesn't have this so have had to import many workers which can be seen in the percentage of foreign players plying their trade in the respective leagues. If the money wasn't even distributed in England the quality of the league as a whole doesn't bear thinking about. I'm in danger of falling down a black hole with this post that could have me typing all night so I'm going to quit while I'm ahead.

"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life"

Opr

[Raoul Duke III]

Ah yes, 'my team is stronger than their results'.

Always a class line to trot out just before getting the sack.

[Cuchulainn1]

Boards down for anyone else?

[6starpool]

Yep. AJ, get on it.

[NewApproach]

Any method of comparing the two leagues/teams in those leagues based on CL results in the past 5 years is a totally futile exercise.

[cardshark202]

Ah yes, 'my team is stronger than their results'.

Always a class line to trot out just before getting the sack.

Should have said: 'short term results' though I'm assuming you knew what I meant.

[dobby]

Boards down for anyone else?

Not having any problems on phone or laptop

[6starpool]

Not having any problems on phone or laptop

It's fine now, but it was down for a few mins earlier.

[Solskjaer]

Maradona > Messi
Madonna > Lady ga ga
Cidona > Top deck
My Sharona > She used to be mine
Liga> Rusks

I refuse to budge.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Raoul Duke III]

You seem to be making the better points overall, but your argumentative style is letting you down. Quote 2 here copies the same argument style as quote 1. And in each case your 'didn't realise' is just way too extravagant. Quote 3 is some sort of argument by absurdity that doesn't work. Yet while you start with these dodgy argumentative tics, when you get into your actual argument your are able to make it quite convincingly using appropriate claims to authority, data.

also falls down on passive-aggressive tone here

Should have said: 'short term results' though I'm assuming you knew what I meant.