SB vs BB in MTT's..

[Kie Diddy]

hey guys,
i seem to get into trouble a lot in the mid-late stages of tourney's by getting embroiled in blind on blind battles. obv it's stack/player dependent to a degree, but I'm not sure if I'm giiving players too much credit for 1.being able to 3-bet light from the BB (which I always presume to be pretty standard) and 2. folding said 3-bets to 4 bets from SB (usually shoves..?) or indeeed the role reversal . evidence suggests this is pretty big leak of mine but im not sure if I've just been a tad unlucky (dont play a big volume at all)

typical hand:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.75 Tournament, 400/800 Blinds 75 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t12775)
UTG+1 (t8072)
MP1 (t27275)
MP2 (t9774)
MP3 (t16666)
CO (t3482)
Button (t11028)
Hero (SB) (t25521)
BB (t28418)

Hero's M: 13.61

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, A
7 folds, Hero bets t1800, BB raises to t6400, Hero raises to t25446 (All-In), BB calls t19046

Flop: (t51567) Q, 8, J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t51567) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t51567) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t51567

is A9 shove herre spew, whta of KQ/KJ/AT??
cheers

[eamonhonda]

I have to say Im not an expert but I dont personally think a 4 bet shove of over 30 bbs with A9 is ever a good idea. I know he could be 3 betting light here but without some sort of reads on the big blind I dont think its worth shoving here. To be honest I really dont know how to play this spot but I think shoving is a bad idea, I would probably fold to the 3 bet here.

[Kie Diddy]

I have to say Im not an expert but I dont personally think a 4 bet shove of over 30 bbs with A9 is ever a good idea. I know he could be 3 betting light here but without some sort of reads on the big blind I dont think its worth shoving here. To be honest I really dont know how to play this spot but I think shoving is a bad idea, I would probably fold to the 3 bet here.

fwiw i think you're 100% correct, with these stacks I thought the shove was awful on review, howver, this type of spot does seem to come up a lot so with 20bb to start...i'm not sure, is raise folding a hand as strong as A9 not super exploitable??

[eamonhonda]

fwiw i think you're 100% correct, with these stacks I thought the shove was awful on review, howver, this type of spot does seem to come up a lot so with 20bb to start...i'm not sure, is raise folding a hand as strong as A9 not super exploitable??

Probably, which is what i meant by saying i'm confused by this myself, the bigger MTT lads are probably on the sunday grind and will get to this tomorrow.

Just filling your blind is def not an option because any good player in the bb will raise you. I'd lean towards a fold because if you call the 3 bet and miss the flop your out of position where all you can do is check fold to a bet. Tough spot and will be checking to see others opinions on this. Cue someone posting about how obvious a certain move is here haha

[peterswellman]

I. for one, am never folding here. They get it in with almost any ace, every pair and a ton of broadway cards imo. It's a semi-cooler if you beaten imo. My steal rate is high though in these spots so I could certainly see villians putting it in with worse against me. Plus, we have tons of fold equity and we can't call being OOP.

Are you running a HUD? What's the BB's steal, if it's non existent then I could possibly find a fold? However, if he's pretty decent with regards understanding position, i'm cramming.

[eamonhonda]

Are you running a HUD? What's the BB's steal, if it's non existent then I could possibly find a fold? However, if he's pretty decent with regards understanding position, i'm cramming.

Thats really what youd be making the decision on here.

[peterswellman]

Thats really what youd be making the decision on here.

Why have the stats if your not going to us them? Provided it's a decent enough sample size then yes, that's what i'm using alot. That and the 3-bet stat would probably be the key ones here for me.

I'd be raising a huge percentage of hands on the c/o, button, sb, for me A9 would be a premium hand in this spot. Not folding.

[Kie Diddy]

tbh i dont run a hood in mtt's, i find them a distraction and the sample sizes jus too small (i obv use 1 for cash which until recently is all i played).. this is prob another mistake
he did seem like of the decen tplayers at the table,he was short-stacked and found nice spts for reshoves etc.
aside from the hand in q. i guess is how capable the avergae $2-$10 mtt player is, i steal/re-steal loads too so usually work of the premise that's wot'd going on wotjut specific reads(stats wud help i guess) ty for input

[Kenny]

tbh i dont run a hood in mtt's

[eamonhonda]

You'd have to wonder in a 2 dollar game is the average villain capable of 3 bet re stealing here with a hand worse than a9?

[flushjee]

Its really villain dependant, this is why I have a HUD for this type of situation. Has he 3-bet you from the BB before, his perception of you are factors that all come into play. Without reads I would fold that hand to the 3Bet

[Winning!]

I'd usually pile here 30BB deep but vs an 8BB-3bet sizing we can find a fold. We wont be good nearly as often as we need to be. Plenty better spots to accumulate chips w 30BB.

AT would be closer.. I probably pile with AJ+/77+, obv much wider if we thought he was capable of 3b-restealing and his 3bet wasnt so large, like all pairs, aces, broadways, and a few connectors/gappers thrown in

[Moneymaker]

I probably just sigh and fold like a bitch and make a note of it.

[alanmc101]

As usual i agree with winning, 1800-6400 would scare the bejesus outta me, the donk prob has a hand here. If he sized it less and he'd been an active 3 bettor i'd be jamming a9 here. I prob go with kq/aj+, it interesting though i've found that players arent getting out of line a huge amount pre flop blind on blind obv because its not gonna work a huge amout.

[Arazi]

As usual i agree with winning, 1800-6400 would scare the bejesus outta me, the donk prob has a hand here. If he sized it less and he'd been an active 3 bettor i'd be jamming a9 here. I prob go with kq/aj+, it interesting though i've found that players arent getting out of line a huge amount pre flop blind on blind obv because its not gonna work a huge amout.

Unless I'm mistaken those of us from outside Dublin should not be using the expression bejesus or bejaysus, it doesn't suit us and if we're lucky enough not to be from Dublin then just stick with what u know. As for the hand ye agree with u and winning etc

[Laois Hammer]

I'd usually pile here 30BB deep but vs an 8BB-3bet sizing we can find a fold. We wont be good nearly as often as we need to be. Plenty better spots to accumulate chips w 30BB.

AT would be closer.. I probably pile with AJ+/77+, obv much wider if we thought he was capable of 3b-restealing and his 3bet wasnt so large, like all pairs, aces, broadways, and a few connectors/gappers thrown in

I find myself limping in this spot, not everytime but a good %, with the intention of limp shoving or barrelling flops if they check back etc. Thoughts on this, possible leak?

[Flushdraw]

As usual i agree with winning, 1800-6400 would scare the bejesus outta me, the donk prob has a hand here. If he sized it less and he'd been an active 3 bettor i'd be jamming a9 here. I prob go with kq/aj+, it interesting though i've found that players arent getting out of line a huge amount pre flop blind on blind obv because its not gonna work a huge amout.

Would you jam KQ but fold A9/A10? Does it play better against his range?

[alanmc101]

Unless I'm mistaken those of us from outside Dublin should not be using the expression bejesus or bejaysus, it doesn't suit us and if we're lucky enough not to be from Dublin then just stick with what u know. As for the hand ye agree with u and winning etc

It just came out, dunno where from! Its not in my normal day to day speak.

[alanmc101]

I find myself limping in this spot, not everytime but a good %, with the intention of limp shoving or barrelling flops if they check back etc. Thoughts on this, possible leak?

With these stacks id def rather be 4 bet shipping than limp shipping, if the guy has a reshoving stack raise calling a9 blind on blind makes a lot of sense.

[alanmc101]

Would you jam KQ but fold A9/A10? Does it play better against his range?

Ye kq/a10 play far better than a9. I dunno its close one here i might fold those hands in this spot, i'd be interested to hear others opinions on this.

[Kie Diddy]

I find myself limping in this spot, not everytime but a good %, with the intention of limp shoving or barrelling flops if they check back etc. Thoughts on this, possible leak?

if villain was short or v.bad i would limp in this spot to induce a shove/3bet (&then shove) but in this particular hand with us both having 30bb ish i thought he wouldn't want to mess about, and his over raise made me think he was thinking somethink similaras I'd expect a real hand to 3bet small to induce..

I've been done so many times though say 10-20bb effective Blind on Blind, your in SB with KJo/A8o/44 , you 2-2.5x it, villain shoves, my standard line here typically (not always obv)is to call it off but it aint workin out too good..ranges for shoving BB 15bb deep vs SB open?

[eamonhonda]

I find myself limping in this spot, not everytime but a good %, with the intention of limp shoving or barrelling flops if they check back etc. Thoughts on this, possible leak?

I always feel a good player will raise any sb limp from bb with any two and you have no idea where you are, its a fold raise for me in small blind at this stage in a tourny/sng

[Mellor]

Ye kq/a10 play far better than a9. I dunno its close one here i might fold those hands in this spot, i'd be interested to hear others opinions on this.

It's a strange one, but yeah, KQ prob plays better vrs his range. It's ahead of more pairs. Does better against A10+. It obvious suffers against smaller aces, but they should be there much.

[peterswellman]

if villain was short or v.bad i would limp in this spot to induce a shove/3bet (&then shove) but in this particular hand with us both having 30bb ish i thought he wouldn't want to mess about, and his over raise made me think he was thinking somethink similaras I'd expect a real hand to 3bet small to induce..

I've been done so many times though say 10-20bb effective Blind on Blind, your in SB with KJo/A8o/44 , you 2-2.5x it, villain shoves, my standard line here typically (not always obv)is to call it off but it aint workin out too good..ranges for shoving BB 15bb deep vs SB open?

Here's the thing, if you're really thinking you are leaking chips in these spots. It's always completely unexploitable to shove a huge range bvb with 30BB's. My chart of unexploitable shoves goes up to 27bb's but you can realistically shove 46% of hands here and in the long run it is +CEV. I know it's probably not optimal and crazy high variance but shoving cannot be horrible if you find this is where you're leaking alot. Even If our villain is calling perfectly we make money long term.

[Winning!]

I find myself limping in this spot, not everytime but a good %, with the intention of limp shoving or barrelling flops if they check back etc. Thoughts on this, possible leak?

I assume your limping is entirely villain dependent.. I don't find my self in this spot much, maybe it's happening less than it used to but could just be my perspective. I almost never limp the SB, but if SB limps into me 30BB deep the first thing I check is his vpip/pfr which, if close to unity(as yours would be), will induce me to check back a lot of semi-strong and weak hands, only really raising with strong r/calling hands, and a few small suited connectors/gappers maybe but its not at all balanced, which means a reg in SB is gonna get badly owned if he has a merged l/shoving range. Also see a cheap flop with a tonne of hands IP allowing SB to make more mistakes against a perceived weak range. So yeah, maybe reg on reg its a leak, but vs a random its fine cos we dont mind seeing flops OOP and he wont often r/c and r/f correctly.