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Online Mtt- 66 facing min 4b

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    Online Mtt- 66 facing min 4b

    $20 Rebuy on Ongame, 5 off the money. Av stack is ~ 65k.

    Villian is a known huge winner on iPoker, been very active here so far, abusing the bubble. Defo capable of taking some funky lines imo. He'd see me as an unknown random but no real hands of interest between us. I haven't really been out of line or overly active at the table but i had shown down a resteal few orbits prev.

    I know i should have a plan pre but his min 4b just threw me, should i just be flatting here? Opinions on jamming? Is folding weaksauce?


    $1.5k/$3k No Limit Holdem
    7 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG UTG ($40k)
    UTG+1 UTG+1 ($50k)
    MP UTG+2 ($98k)
    CO CO ($41k)
    BTN BTN ($153k)
    SB SB ($36k)
    BB Hero ($166k)

    Pre-Flop: ($4.5k, 7 players) Hero is BB 6:diamond: 6:spade:
    4 folds, BTN raises to $6.7k, 1 fold, Hero raises to $20k, BTN raises to $42k, Hero ?????

    #2
    I'd prefer to just flat pre and take a flop this deep vs someone decent and as active as you say tbh.

    So you have a tight enough image up to this point? Have you been actively 3 betting steels or making positional 3 bets at all? If not it's just a fold and move on but I'm pretty sure I just fold n move on either way without some strong history.

    Your 3 bet is a pretty strong size imo and if villain is good he's actually got a big hand a lot here vs an unknown. I wouldn't let his 4 bet sizing affect my decision too much in this spot. Shoving is not a good idea...you'd be praying for him to fold and turning your hand into a bluff pretty much. I'm never flatting as it leads to trouble for a shed load of reasons. To fold and still have >2x average stack is better than any move. So many better spots utilise your stack and abuse the bubble yourself. You've a good seat to boot and will get much better opportunities to rape villain.

    Villian is a known huge winner on iPoker
    What's his SN as a matter of interest?
    Last edited by 72over; 11-02-10, 06:47. Reason: cause I felt like it
    It's all an illusion

    Comment


      #3
      Why exactly did you 3bet? Just want to hear your reasoning behind it.

      Not sure if I'd have flatted the open or not. I guess 3betting this is fine vs a very good and aggro button where you're 50bb deep, and I think I prefer a 3b or fold to a call.

      You really should know what you're doing regarding his 4bet before you 3bet. Calling is obviously woeful. You should either jam or fold.

      Why exactly did his min 4b throw you? What exactly did you think he was going to do? Like he only has 3 possible options to your 3b if he is continuing: min4b, jam, call. As you said, you should know what you're doing beforehand to each of these options. I guess this is a fine hand to 5bet bluff, so its certainly not awful to jam.

      Asking what people would do here is a bit weird. Its like asking people would they 5b jam A5s for 100bb once they've been 4b. You do sometimes and you don't sometimes and you just hope to get it in the right frequency. Game flow is pretty important in these spots too in widening or narrowing their ranges or perceptions of yours.
      Foldaramus et foldarabimus

      Comment


        #4
        with these stacks, I'd just call the PF raise and set mine\see what happens on the flop

        as played, it's a fold for me
        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
          with these stacks, I'd just call the PF raise and set mine\see what happens on the flop

          as played, it's a fold for me
          This.

          Comment


            #6
            I think set mining is not good here. This is probably closer to a fold than a call pre. Borderline though imo.
            Foldaramus et foldarabimus

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
              I think set mining is not good here. This is probably closer to a fold than a call pre. Borderline though imo.
              meh, 3.7k into 11.2? OK, so we dump it on the flop 90% of the time, so what - we still have 160k which is ~ 2.5 * av. stack

              but...flop gin and get paid off here, you're in a superb spot
              "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

              Comment


                #8
                How often do you think we get paid if we flop a set? Honest question.
                Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                  How often do you think we get paid if we flop a set? Honest question.
                  there's the rub, it's entirely villain dependent
                  "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Yeah I guess. I was just assuming that cos he's got a pretty wide range, we don't get paid very often. Also he's good, we're oop, and 66 pretty much never has much equity when we bluff. Also, calling down 66 is horrible on 95% of boards. I know from playing cash, that calling 66 from the blinds is not good vs decent LP openers if we don't call down sometimes.
                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                      Yeah I guess. I was just assuming that cos he's got a pretty wide range, we don't get paid very often. Also he's good, we're oop, and 66 pretty much never has much equity when we bluff. Also, calling down 66 is horrible on 95% of boards. I know from playing cash, that calling 66 from the blinds is not good vs decent LP openers if we don't call down sometimes.
                      calling down on any normal sort of board is almost never going to be an option here (without super-sekrit soul reading abilities)

                      anyway, in this spot, I'm still happy to take a flop

                      obviously, it becomes a different equation if we have average stacks
                      "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Just to say that I think TommyGunne's posts in this thread are excellent.

                        There was a similar thread on 2p2 when a good aggro button opened and the SB had 66 and the concensus was to fold unless you call down sometimes. The dilemma here is that if the button is aggro and opening pretty wide then our implied odds reduce drastically, however if our implied odds reduce it suggests the button is going to let us get to showdown often enough that we can call for value. However being OOP here the button gets to determine so drastically how the hand plays that folding to a good button is probably best

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by 72over View Post
                          I'd prefer to just flat pre and take a flop this deep vs someone decent and as active as you say tbh.

                          So you have a tight enough image up to this point? Have you been actively 3 betting steels or making positional 3 bets at all? If not it's just a fold and move on but I'm pretty sure I just fold n move on either way without some strong history.


                          What's his SN as a matter of interest?
                          My image would be pretty tag up until about 10 off the money, since then i've opened up a bit more and opening from lp and throwing in a few 3bs. Had shown down genuine hands anytime i'd been looked up bar one, but to an observant player i'd been noticeably more active.


                          Villians SN is winkiac on ipoker

                          Comment


                            #14
                            If i 3bet here im 5betting all in, if villain is decent id say he's 4betting the other big stack a high % of the time here.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Cheers for taking the time to do up a great reply Tommy


                              Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                              Why exactly did you 3bet? Just want to hear your reasoning behind it.
                              Well villain had been very active and based on previous history i know he opens very wide approaching bubble with chips and generally trying to run over the table. At the time my thinking was i could flat and set mine but knowing that he could be opening any 2 otb then 66 was well ahead of his range and seemed a fairly standard 3b.

                              Not sure if I'd have flatted the open or not. I guess 3betting this is fine vs a very good and aggro button where you're 50bb deep, and I think I prefer a 3b or fold to a call.

                              You really should know what you're doing regarding his 4bet before you 3bet. Calling is obviously woeful. You should either jam or fold.

                              Why exactly did his min 4b throw you? What exactly did you think he was going to do? Like he only has 3 possible options to your 3b if he is continuing: min4b, jam, call. As you said, you should know what you're doing beforehand to each of these options. I guess this is a fine hand to 5bet bluff, so its certainly not awful to jam.
                              Yeah i definitely agree here, my plan was to fold if he 4b but it was the min 4b that confused me. It just seemed very odd and out of character from the way he'd been playing. Perhaps i'm just over thinking it.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Tek View Post
                                Yeah i definitely agree here, my plan was to fold if he 4b but it was the min 4b that confused me. It just seemed very odd and out of character from the way he'd been playing. Perhaps i'm just over thinking it.
                                The size of the 4bet shouldnt surprise you, nearly always getting min 4bet unless he was shoving.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Tek View Post
                                  At the time my thinking was i could flat and set mine but knowing that he could be opening any 2 otb then 66 was well ahead of his range and seemed a fairly standard 3b.
                                  as an aside merely being ahead of someones opening range isn't enough of a reason to 3bet, you have to consider how the different parts of his range react to the 3bet

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by scouser in dub View Post
                                    as an aside merely being ahead of someones opening range isn't enough of a reason to 3bet, you have to consider how the different parts of his range react to the 3bet
                                    This is very very important, being ahead of his opening range is irrelevant. What matters is things like how often he folds, his range for flatting and his range for 4 betting, and what we'll do if he does 4 bet. Raising every time you're simply ahead of his range is not good, because you don't face his entire opening range when you 3 bet, you face whatever range of hands he continues with.
                                    "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      okay flatting pre is by far the best option,

                                      however folding is not terrible and is realistically the best option,

                                      you are only going to win the pot post when you hit a 6 or the flop comes 457 or 345 etc,

                                      therefore i can understand your 3bet but it looks like its full of crap because its button v BB

                                      people do spaz out in these spots, your 3bet wit 66 is spazzy hes prob min 4betting a spazzing amount too

                                      i think after 3betting, 5bet jamming is >folding>calling,

                                      depending on how good he is its hard to assign his calling range

                                      the lesson to be learned here tho is fold preflop imo
                                      http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
                                        okay flatting pre is by far the best option,

                                        however folding is not terrible and is realistically the best option,
                                        Confused eh?!

                                        I fold pre

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
                                          calling down on any normal sort of board is almost never going to be an option here (without super-sekrit soul reading abilities)
                                          Thats not quite true, they won't always fire multiple barrels, the board can come out very nice etc etc


                                          To answer the OP, I would nearly always just flat the 3bet. You can always turn your hand into a bluff post flop if you want. Once I 3bet I think you should always 5bet all in, its just too likely he is bluffing, or will get scared and fold.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
                                            okay flatting pre is by far the best option,

                                            however folding is not terrible and is realistically the best option,
                                            haha, Are there any more best options?



                                            Folding pre is fine and probably what most people should do. It really comes down to the relative skill level of you and the button. (Baring in mind he has position and the inititave). So most people should in fact fold, but I never would.

                                            As I was typing this out I misclick called and won a pot by accident!

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              I'm never folding this pre....fact. Far too much fold ITT imo. I reckon ya all need to get some time in playing HU cash or SnG time in and and you'll be more comfortable playing oop vs someone decent. This villain from the op is indeed a very good player but we don't have to be necessarily playing our cards post flop...that aint what it's about imo. With the effective M's there is so much room for maneuvering post-flop. If you f*ck up, fine...move on, but learn from it and advance.
                                              It's all an illusion

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by 72over View Post
                                                With the effective M's there is so much room for maneuvering post-flop. If you f*ck up, fine...move on, but learn from it and advance.
                                                If this is the case then picking 66 as your hand to get tricky with is bad because your equity on 99% of flops is poor at best. At least if you have a suited connector you can pick flops where you have a pair and some backdoor draws to bluff at but 66 will have like 9% equity if your CRAI or whatever is called.

                                                Saying we don't need to be playing our cards is a bit of a silly statement, we always need to play both our hands equity and our fold equity together.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                  haha, Are there any more best options?



                                                  Folding pre is fine and probably what most people should do. It really comes down to the relative skill level of you and the button. (Baring in mind he has position and the inititave). So most people should in fact fold, but I never would.

                                                  As I was typing this out I misclick called and won a pot by accident!
                                                  i really shud edit it, i think folding pre is the best options
                                                  http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                    If this is the case then picking 66 as your hand to get tricky with is bad because your equity on 99% of flops is poor at best. At least if you have a suited connector you can pick flops where you have a pair and some backdoor draws to bluff at but 66 will have like 9% equity if your CRAI or whatever is called.
                                                    You've missed the point and I'm never gonna CRAI(or whatever it's called). I'm talking about winning the pot w/out SD. You do realize how deep the stacks are?

                                                    Also what's this about?
                                                    Saying we don't need to be playing our cards is a bit of a silly statement, we always need to play both our hands equity and our fold equity together.
                                                    My..
                                                    we don't have to be necessarily playing our cards post flop
                                                    vs your...
                                                    Saying we don't need to be playing our cards is a bit of a silly statement
                                                    Don't put words in my mouth and alter the the obv meaning of my post please. What I meant is that should we not hit we still have plenty of ways of winning the pot playing that thing called poker with these stacks.
                                                    It's all an illusion

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      I don't see what you're getting at. 66 is a bad hand for anything but set-mining in this spot is my point. Set mining this shallow sucks. I certainly don't regard 50bb as 'deep' play and don't see many ways to win the hand here. Say theres 17k or something in the pot and he bets 12k, we're in no mans land. We might have the best hand but we're stuck oop and will have to call at least one more bet to see a showdown. Raising lets him play perfectly. I just think folding is by far the best option here, particularly in a tournament where you can't reload and balancing isn't important. Its a spot where our EV is tiny at best and the variance can wipe out our shot at better spots when we have position.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Will get back to this later as busy for the evening
                                                        It's all an illusion

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I know I'm a big ABC fish but fwiw I flat the raise to set mine or maybe continue on a four to a straight situation.
                                                          With so much equity in my stack I am almost always going deep there, mostly by bullying shorter stacks. I honestly can't remember losing a stack like that against another big stack without a premium hand preflop or hitting the set and being outdrawn. Either way I'm ahead when the money goes in with the exception of the AA V KK scenario.

                                                          I also think it can pay off later in that specific situation. i.e by calling, missing then Hollywood folding to a c-bet might mean either A) villain might think twice about raising the button again if he thinks you're going to defend or B) You do pick up a monster later and he thinks you're just frustrated with his raises and calls you light.

                                                          Comment

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