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2nd of 2 hands CPT

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    2nd of 2 hands CPT

    Same villain as in the 1st of 2 hands. Blinds still 500/1000 he has 22.5k and I have 50k. Villain raises UTG to 3k. Folded to me in MP with AQos and I call.
    sb and bb come along, both LAG's playing 16/17k. Flop is A 6 2 rainbow. SB, BB and UTG all check and I bet 7k. Folded back to UTG raiser who c/r's all in for an additional 12.5k.

    Hero? And comments on hand in general.


    Table was fairly crazy at times. Early on the normal raise was 6xbb and still 5/6 callers. Another hand at 150/300 level there was 6/7 limps and BB made it 3500(not the guy from above example) and he still got 4 callers for 25% of their stacks. The BB and another guy got it all in on an A Q 10 flop, BB with AK and the other guy with A7os.
    Last edited by gorrrr72; 16-02-10, 23:08. Reason: Slight mistake in positioning

    #2
    Id just open shove the flop since any call/raise commits you to the pot anyway.

    standard cooler if you got beaten

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      #3
      I'm not sure I like the original flat with any hand given the effective stacks but I am obviously not folding now

      3bet pre or fold assuming he folded the hand previous after donking two streets I prob just raise and get it in though the stacks behind will contribute to my decision

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        #4
        I don't mind a flat pre in this spot and i'd be snapping off the BBs shove.

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          #5
          You don't mention stack sizes behing you?

          I prefer a 3 bet pre aswell and if stack sizes are similar to villians I probably simple 3 bet shove.

          As played its an easy call now, your really only behind A 6, A 2 from call stations.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by LTL View Post
            You don't mention stack sizes behing you?

            I prefer a 3 bet pre aswell and if stack sizes are similar to villians I probably simple 3 bet shove.

            As played its an easy call now, your really only behind A 6, A 2 from call stations.

            I adjusted OP as some positioning was off. I was in the hijack, so cut off had 35k LAG, button had 40k tight/nit, sb & bb have 16/17k each, both LAGS.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post
              I don't mind a flat pre in this spot and i'd be snapping off the BBs shove.
              Sorry, my description was off. It was the UTG raiser that c/r all in. I edited the OP.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                Sorry, my description was off. It was the UTG raiser that c/r all in. I edited the OP.
                I still snap shove and I am less worried about A6 and the like now.

                You are getting over 3/1. I'm not expecting to win all the time (I'll guess AK here)

                Comment


                  #9
                  flatting here pre is waaaaaay better than 3betting preflop,


                  this flop is bet/call or if he lead you shove

                  easy game
                  http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
                    flatting here pre is waaaaaay better than 3betting preflop,


                    this flop is bet/call or if he lead you shove

                    easy game
                    Yup. Can't say any more than that really.
                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                    Comment


                      #11
                      seriously people want to flat UTG 3x opens 22.5bb's effective?

                      He either has a range that we can get it in profitably against or he doesn't given the hand played with the same villain previously where he donked flop and turn only to check fold the river I would suggest that we can get it in profitably but w/e.

                      When we flat we are either going to play fit or fold in a pot that can go multiway or we are going to have to bluff raise some boards else we deny ourselves any chance of realising our equity on flops that we miss that we get to play HU.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by scouser in dub View Post
                        seriously people want to flat UTG 3x opens 22.5bb's effective?

                        He either has a range that we can get it in profitably against or he doesn't given the hand played with the same villain previously where he donked flop and turn only to check fold the river I would suggest that we can get it in profitably but w/e.

                        When we flat we are either going to play fit or fold in a pot that can go multiway or we are going to have to bluff raise some boards else we deny ourselves any chance of realising our equity on flops that we miss that we get to play HU.
                        I would agree with a lot of this, problem is if we shove pre vs an UTG raise, he's probably only calling with hands that crush us. Whereas if we flat, we keep his AT-AJ hands in and we stack him on boards like this. We can bluff shove some flops, give up some flops, where we've only lost 3bbs and we still have a playable stack.

                        Obv if its LP/CO/Button raise im getting the dough in pre vs a 22BB stack unless it was a complete nit.
                        Last edited by Moneymaker; 17-02-10, 14:36.

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                          #13
                          The thing is that there's really not the scope to outplay a villain when the SPR is so low. If we were deeper at about 30bb's eff or so then a flat is arguably better than 3bet calling. If we decide to turn the hand into a bluff post we are usually bluffing with the best hand as I doubt pairs are bet folding J high flops and we still value stack ourselves against the top of his range on Q high flops.

                          Personally I don't think we should have a flatting range at 22.5bb's unless we are bladed and even then only against certain opponents or intentionally to induce a shove from behind.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I don't like to play to aggro against an UTG raiser as a rule unless he is a serial raiser/maniac.
                            Against this opponent he hadn't been raising, just calling raises. It actually crossed my mind to fold preflop as I would hate to have a decision if one of the shorties shove and UTG flats.

                            I formed the opinion that he was passive, loose and played his hands ABC.
                            I don't raise in this spot unless I have 10-15k, then I just get it in. As played preflop, if he has a pair and I hit the flop I think I at least get a c-bet from him. But if I don't hit I can just fold and wait for a better spot. I know it's kinda weak but I find this works on soft tables as you get paid off when you hit anyway.

                            Lots of good discussion on this hand and I feel even though it's a standard spot there are still a lot of differing opinions in how to play it.

                            Result: I reluctantly call expecting to see AK, but he had the bullets. NH sir. I never fold to the c/r there as even though it's as dry a flop as they come I still think villain can turn up with A10, AJ suited sometimes KK QQ just don't believe you have it or think they can push you off a weak ace.

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