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    #61
    @DonkeyPokerTour please tell me that you are not a TD, as if you are your understanding of this situation as difficult as it is full of incompetence.

    Comment


      #62
      I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I'm repeating something here or the OP has already stated some of this.

      From what I can make out the player with QQ called (only the TD heard it, and that's good enough for me).

      He then tabled his hand, and for what ever reason the player with AA and the dealer thought this was a fold and the dealer turns the QQ face down and into the muck and started to award the pot to AA (all very fast).

      As a dealer can not kill a live hand and because the QQ was shown they should be taken back out from the muck as we know what these cards are 100%.

      Unfortunately for the AA he has only shown one A which should also be taken back and the hand ran out.

      It's a tricky one but both the dealer and the AA player presumed the QQ player folded when he hadn't. QQ was tabled and it's a showdown the hand must be played.

      The bare A may hit and still win the pot.
      Last edited by JP Poker; 30-11-11, 19:07.
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        #63
        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
        I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I'm repeating something here or the OP has already stated some of this.

        From what I can make out the player with QQ called (only the TD here it, and that's good enough for me).

        He then tabled his hand, for what ever reason but the player with AA and the dealer thought this was a fold and turn the QQ face down and into the muck and started to award the pot to AA (all very fast).

        As a dealer can not kill a live hand and because the QQ was shown they should be taken back out from the muck as we know what these cards are 100%.

        Unfortunately for the AA he has only shown one A which should also be taken back and the hand ran out.

        It's a tricky one but both the dealer and the AA player presumed the QQ player folded when he hadn't. QQ was tabled and it's a showdown the hand must be played.

        The bare A may hit and still win the pot.
        Do you not need to show two cards to claim the pot in event he hits one of the aces?

        Comment


          #64
          Cool thanks JP, sounds correct.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
            That's a bizarre way to read it.
            QQ was in the muck when hero still had cards. Therefore QQ was dead and hero should win without showdown as last player standing.
            Don't you think that if the TD has heard the player with QQ say call and the QQ has tabled their hand that it should be a call?

            How would you rule if the dealer only mucked the QQ after it was shown and the player AA still had his cards in his hand?
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              #66
              Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
              I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I'm repeating something here or the OP has already stated some of this.

              From what I can make out the player with QQ called (only the TD here it, and that's good enough for me).

              He then tabled his hand, for what ever reason but the player with AA and the dealer thought this was a fold and turn the QQ face down and into the muck and started to award the pot to AA (all very fast).

              As a dealer can not kill a live hand and because the QQ was shown they should be taken back out from the muck as we know what these cards are 100%.

              Unfortunately for the AA he has only shown one A which should also be taken back and the hand ran out.

              It's a tricky one but both the dealer and the AA player presumed the QQ player folded when he hadn't. QQ was tabled and it's a showdown the hand must be played.

              The bare A may hit and still win the pot.
              At what stage should the AA player have given his cards back?

              Is he required to double check with the QQ player that they have indeed folded?

              If its a multi-way pot, am I required to ask every player are they sure they said fold if a TD is standing near the table just in case?

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                Look at it from another point of view, if the QQ player turned his cards over without making a clear action, would his hand not be dead for exposing it?
                No.

                The most common rule for this is any player who exposes their cards with action pending will still have a live hand and may receive a penalty at the end of the hand.
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                  #68
                  Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                  Do you not need to show two cards to claim the pot in event he hits one of the aces?
                  If a player goes all-in and gets called and we then notice at show down that the dealer had mucked the all-in players cards I would allow the him/her to play the board.

                  I'm not going to give him back chips as they are already in the pot and I'm not going to fish his cards back out of the muck (unless they are 100% identifiable). They've paid to see the flop, turn and river and maybe the board may bring a straight, flush or house and it's a split pot.

                  So yes I would allow the player with the single A to play the hand.
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                    #69
                    Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                    At what stage should the AA player have given his cards back?

                    Is he required to double check with the QQ player that they have indeed folded?

                    If its a multi-way pot, am I required to ask every player are they sure they said fold if a TD is standing near the table just in case?
                    While I agree that it is a tricky one.

                    If it went down the way it was explained in the OP (a total of 5 seconds), if I've gone all-in and a player tables their cards and I've not heard anything (not a call, not a fold) I would ask the player if they were calling or folding.

                    I've heard many players ask this question when they are not sure if their opponent has called or folded.
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                      #70
                      Everyone seems to agree that it's a very difficult situation.

                      The TD honesty (and resonably) admitted that he simply didn't know the correct ruling.

                      He then ruled that I would keep the chips that had been awarded to me and play on.

                      The villian was probably unhappy with the ruling because as I hadn't shown my second ace he had no way of knowing that he wasn't at worst racing (A,K) or at best had me dominated (A,Q or worse).

                      I was unhappy because I had lost the chance of being a big favourite for a double up.

                      The dealer (who is normally an excellent dealer) was probably unhappy because she had made a mistake.

                      The TD was unhappy because he had failed to stop the dealer from mucking in time and also because he didn't know how to rule.

                      Everyone involved are decent honourable people, there was a genuine mistake made that was very hard to correct fairly.

                      I can understand why JP and others say the QQ hand must be live but as I said before I had seen the cards being mucked, and the chips were in my hand being stacked before I mucked. It was reasonable as (everyone at the table agreed with) for me to assume the hand was over before I mucked.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                        Don't you think that if the TD has heard the player with QQ say call and the QQ has tabled their hand that it should be a call?

                        How would you rule if the dealer only mucked the QQ after it was shown and the player AA still had his cards in his hand?
                        I don't think it's as clear cut as this JP. Only the TD heard him say call, if his is vocal action wasn't reasonably loud/clear enough then this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
                        Then he fails to notice his hand being mucked and the chips going to the opponent.
                        I can't see why OP should be penalized for this.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                          @DonkeyPokerTour please tell me that you are not a TD, as if you are your understanding of this situation as difficult as it is full of incompetence.
                          While I know your not name calling, I would like to know how you find my understanding of the situation full of incompetence. I am simply doing my best to try and interperet the rules.

                          I can understand JP's ruling however I disagree with it but I will bow to superior knowledge. As is pointed out by another poster in jest it leaves things wide open for an angle if you run the board out in that spot and allow the player who exposed his hand to play. What's to stop someone with 7/2 turning over their hand and saying nothing, the dealer niche their hand, the opposing player does not show a card then muck. The player who showed 7/2 then can claim he called and can free roll for the other guys stack! This I think is wrong!

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Hi Donkey,
                            Basically the villain said call to an All In Shove (the TD heard this) and then they flipped over QQ. Now by any rules he/she has fulfilled any of their obligation, their hand is live and the dealer cannot muck it yet you believe that she can. That's incredibly basic. I'm sorry by your userid I thought you were a TD and that's why ur post shocked me so much.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post
                              Everyone seems to agree that it's a very difficult situation.

                              The TD honesty (and resonably) admitted that he simply didn't know the correct ruling.

                              He then ruled that I would keep the chips that had been awarded to me and play on.

                              The villian was probably unhappy with the ruling because as I hadn't shown my second ace he had no way of knowing that he wasn't at worst racing (A,K) or at best had me dominated (A,Q or worse).

                              I was unhappy because I had lost the chance of being a big favourite for a double up.

                              The dealer (who is normally an excellent dealer) was probably unhappy because she had made a mistake.

                              The TD was unhappy because he had failed to stop the dealer from mucking in time and also because he didn't know how to rule.

                              Everyone involved are decent honourable people, there was a genuine mistake made that was very hard to correct fairly.

                              I can understand why JP and others say the QQ hand must be live but as I said before I had seen the cards being mucked, and the chips were in my hand being stacked before I mucked. It was reasonable as (everyone at the table agreed with) for me to assume the hand was over before I mucked.
                              Hi dinjo,

                              I'm finding it hard to figure out how the TD, who I'm guessing was standing up so not at the same level as the player with QQ could hear call when you and the dealer didn't.

                              Was there alot of noise on the table or did you have headphones on?
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                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                Don't you think that if the TD has heard the player with QQ say call and the QQ has tabled their hand that it should be a call?

                                How would you rule if the dealer only mucked the QQ after it was shown and the player AA still had his cards in his hand?
                                His hand should be a call and I have said previously that if AA still had cards then the QQ should be retrieved and a board played out.

                                I feel that the ruling that AA plays on with one card unfairly penalises that player.


                                Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                While I agree that it is a tricky one.

                                If it went down the way it was explained in the OP (a total of 5 seconds), if I've gone all-in and a player tables their cards and I've not heard anything (not a call, not a fold) I would ask the player if they were calling or folding.

                                I've heard many players ask this question when they are not sure if their opponent has called or folded.
                                Personally, I'd ask them that also. Defo with the AA in hand. I've been angle shot in a past, in a similar situation and its soemthing I try to avoid.
                                But im asking that to ensure I get paid if he called, and because calling with QQ was expected.
                                But its unfair to expect that the AA player must ask as a matter of due course. That's the key to the hand imo. He didn't do anything wrong, so shouldn't be penalised.

                                I think its fair to say that no matter what the ruling, somebody is getting treated unfair in some regard. Both players acted imperfectly, the deal was at fault and TD should of been quicker. Based on the fact that either player is punished if the other gets the pot, I spilt it.


                                I think we can all agree its a very tricky spot. One for the next TDA conferance JP
                                Last edited by Mellor; 30-11-11, 23:05.

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                  I don't think it's as clear cut as this JP. Only the TD heard him say call, if his is vocal action wasn't reasonably loud/clear enough then this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
                                  Then he fails to notice his hand being mucked and the chips going to the opponent.
                                  I can't see why OP should be penalized for this.
                                  Hi Gordan,

                                  It seems to be a very weird situation. Normally I would put some responsibility back on the player with QQ as to why he didn't say call loud enough or why he didn't speak when his cards were turned face down and brought into the muck. But its seem like he did everything he could have in this spot.

                                  The TD did heard him say call, maybe their is a reason why the dealer didn't hear the call.

                                  Also going by what the OP has said, it all happened very fast, and both the TD & the player with QQ spoke up at the same time when the pot was been pushed to AA.

                                  The only possible outcomes that I see are...
                                  1: Player with AA is award the Pot (not QQ's all-in)
                                  2: Player with QQ is award the Pot (not AA all-in)
                                  3: Both players are all-in QQ and A are pulled from the muck and the board is ran out
                                  4: Split pot

                                  For me I'd go with
                                  3
                                  2
                                  1
                                  4

                                  In that order
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                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                    Hi Gordan,

                                    It seems to be a very weird situation. Normally I would put some responsibility back on the player with QQ as to why he didn't say call loud enough or why he didn't speak when his cards were turned face down and brought into the muck. But its seem like he did everything he could have in this spot.

                                    The TD did heard him say call, maybe their is a reason why the dealer didn't hear the call.

                                    Also going by what the OP has said, it all happened very fast, and both the TD & the player with QQ spoke up at the same time when the pot was been pushed to AA.

                                    The only possible outcomes that I see are...
                                    1: Player with AA is award the Pot (not QQ's all-in)
                                    2: Player with QQ is award the Pot (not AA all-in)
                                    3: Both players are all-in QQ and A are pulled from the muck and the board is ran out
                                    4: Split pot

                                    For me I'd go with
                                    3
                                    2
                                    1
                                    4

                                    In that order
                                    I need to brush up in my interpretation of the rules so as my order of preference would almost be the reverse of that list!

                                    I reckon this situation is tailor made for that general 'td may make a ruling deemed to be in the best interests of the game' rule as if the board is run out the OP is very heavily penalised for not really doing anything wrong in my view.

                                    Anyway I will bow to your superior knowledge!

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by NewApproach View Post
                                      I need to brush up in my interpretation of the rules so as my order of preference would almost be the reverse of that list!

                                      I reckon this situation is tailor made for that general 'td may make a ruling deemed to be in the best interests of the game' rule as if the board is run out the OP is very heavily penalised for not really doing anything wrong in my view.

                                      Anyway I will bow to your superior knowledge!
                                      I personally dislike split pots and would do everything in my power not to have a split pot in a tournament as it effects everyone (not just the two players involved) in the tournament. There should be a winner to every hand. Splitting the pot on the bubble for example would mean instead of one of these guys getting knocking out and the bubble been burst. Someone else goes out on the bubble.

                                      Again just my opinion no bowing needed
                                      Last edited by JP Poker; 01-12-11, 00:39.
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                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        Is it just me but if I had QQ, tanked for 3 minutes, and eventually called,
                                        am I the only one waiting to see the original all in players cards first before showing?


                                        Also, clearly if the TD heard call, either the TD or the player with QQ should be fecking watching what's happening to their cards!

                                        From the OP, the QQ was thrown faceup, mucked by dealer, pot shoved toward OP.
                                        Mental by both player with QQ and TD not to have spotted anything wrong here.
                                        ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          having QQ against one ace is surely too harsh. If you think QQ should win the hand, would it not be fairer to give QQ the pot (excluding the all-in raise (so the 1500 plus blinds and antes))?

                                          If a player raises all in, then has their cards taken by the dealer, has another play call, what is your ruling? I assume you don't force the all-in player to remain all in and play the board? (I assume the all-in player loses the last previous bet and gets the all-in raise portion of their stack back?

                                          Comment


                                            #81
                                            Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                            I personally dislike split pots and would do everything in my power not to have a split pot in a tournament as it effects everyone (not just the two players involved) in the tournament. There should be a winner to every hand.

                                            Again just my opinion no bowing needed
                                            They should do away with draw games in soccer too.
                                            ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                                            Comment


                                              #82
                                              Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                              They should do away with draw games in soccer too.
                                              If it was up to the Americans they would he he

                                              Comment


                                                #83
                                                @ JP,
                                                If it played out as you say it should, and I'm the player that had the AA, then I would be a very unhappy chappy!!! Why?

                                                1-I have AA
                                                2-I 4-bet all-in
                                                3-Opponnent tanks for 3 mins, I'm obviousley hoping he calls, and eventually, he turns his QQ face up on the table without audibly saying call.
                                                4--Dealer takes the two cards from villian, turns them back over and pulls them into the muck and awards the chips in the pot to me.
                                                5- I flash opponnent an ace, start stacking my chips and give my cards back to the dealer.
                                                6-No matter how fast this dealer is, there must be ample time for the QQ player to stop the dealer before all this is done. There has to be an onus on the QQ player as well. If it was my QQ. and I was gone all-in with it and I saw the dealer take them and put them in the muck, theres no way the dealer would have awarded the pot to my opponnent without I intervening to know whats happening with my hand.

                                                As far as I can see, there is absolutely no fault whatsoever here with the AA player, so saying that the rule should be that I now put all my chips in the middle and play the hand with just 1 ace does not make sense to me. Why are we penalising the player who has played the hand perfectly?

                                                Obviously, the main fault here is with the dealer. I mean, if the player said call and the TD heard him, then the dealer should hear that too. He/she should at least ensure the player is folding before mucking the QQ and awarding the pot to the hero.
                                                The only other fault in the hand is with the player who had QQ. I have no reason to doubt that he did say call, but in all fairness, if you call an all-in for all your stack and you see the dealer take your cards that you have tuened face-up, turn them back over, put them in the muck, shove the pot to you opponnent, see your opponnent flash you an Ace and then see your opponnents cards mucked, how can a player wait until this whole sequence of events happens before informing the dealer that he said "call"?
                                                And if there was anyone else at fault here, its the Td who is standing there watching all this happening.

                                                Im not 100% of what the correct ruling is, but I am 100% sure that for the reasons outlined above, I dont see how as a td, and acting in the interest of the game that I could penalise the player with AA. If I had to make a ruling with the info I have above, I would probably split the pot between them. If the td was not there to back up the players claim of calling, I would award the hand to the AA player.
                                                Surely playing out the hand by dealing out the board with one player having QQ and the other a single ACE is over- penalising a player who has done nothing wrong, and its for his whole tournament?

                                                Comment


                                                  #84
                                                  Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                  3-Opponnent tanks for 3 mins, I'm obviousley hoping he calls, and eventually, he turns his QQ face up on the table without audibly saying call.
                                                  Are you sure he didn't say call - the TD seems sure he called.

                                                  Did villain say he said call?









                                                  Also we are assuming Hero had AA. Nobody seen his cards.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #85
                                                    Originally posted by CheckRaise View Post
                                                    Are you sure he didn't say call - the TD seems sure he called.

                                                    Did villain say he said call?

                                                    Also we are assuming Hero had AA. Nobody seen his cards.
                                                    Connie said he didn't audibly say call, not that he didn't say call.
                                                    Also, I don't think the OP has anything to gain my lying about his holding now.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #86
                                                      As Mellor said.

                                                      Also, the hero's holding is not the issue at all now. Whether he's fibbing or not doesnt effect the decision.
                                                      The general concensus is the QQ is being hard done by, but if JP's ruling is the way forward on this one, my issue is that we are penalising the AA guy for playing his hand perfectly. He didnt release his cards to the dealer until after the pot (and chips) was awarded to him, so what more can he do? It just cant be right to penalise the AA player.

                                                      Connie

                                                      Comment


                                                        #87
                                                        Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                                                        This a difficult situation for everyone invovled but i think once the chips are awarded to the player and the cards have been taken in and shuffled then play must continue
                                                        this is the correct ruling full stop.

                                                        simples!

                                                        Comment


                                                          #88
                                                          The first action after villain turns over his cards is the dealer straight away reaches over to grab the cards and mucks them?

                                                          Did the dealer give a reason for doing this?

                                                          Something must have happened for an experienced dealer to do that knowing the hand was live and assuming no verbal action.
                                                          Last edited by CheckRaise; 01-12-11, 12:06.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #89
                                                            Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                            As Mellor said.

                                                            Also, the hero's holding is not the issue at all now. Whether he's fibbing or not doesnt effect the decision.
                                                            The general concensus is the QQ is being hard done by, but if JP's ruling is the way forward on this one, my issue is that we are penalising the AA guy for playing his hand perfectly. He didnt release his cards to the dealer until after the pot (and chips) was awarded to him, so what more can he do? It just cant be right to penalise the AA player.

                                                            Connie
                                                            Agree 100% with Connie's last 2 posts. If hero hadn't flashed the Ace, by JP's ruling he'd have to play the board against the QQ, despite having done absolutely nothing wrong in the hand. Too harsh IMO.
                                                            I think in this extraordinary case we have to just move on to the next hand with hero keeping the 1500, blinds and antes awarded to him.
                                                            Even though everyone is slightly unhappy with the outcome, I think it's fairer than penalising hero (or villain for his only error which is failing to protect his cards from a dealer error after he's acted and properly tabled his cards for showdown)

                                                            Comment


                                                              #90
                                                              Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                              Hi dinjo,

                                                              I'm finding it hard to figure out how the TD, who I'm guessing was standing up so not at the same level as the player with QQ could hear call when you and the dealer didn't.

                                                              Was there alot of noise on the table or did you have headphones on?
                                                              Hi JP.

                                                              The following info is probably relevant.

                                                              The TD was standing behind villian because he was about to replace the dealer.

                                                              During the tank by villian he had shown the TD his cards.
                                                              (Not sure whether this is proper or not but it happens often in club, nobody has issues with it.)
                                                              While Villian was tanking he was talking out loud to himself along the lines of "I can't believe I'm folding this hand" etc

                                                              Because of the verbals we all thought beforehand he was about to fold.

                                                              The dealer acted quicker than normal because she wanted to get deck ready for new dealer. (the TD)

                                                              I have to agree with Connie that you shouldn't penalise me for mucking in the circumstances.

                                                              Tx for input.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #91
                                                                Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                                                Is it just me but if I had QQ, tanked for 3 minutes, and eventually called,
                                                                am I the only one waiting to see the original all in players cards first before showing?


                                                                Also, clearly if the TD heard call, either the TD or the player with QQ should be fecking watching what's happening to their cards!

                                                                From the OP, the QQ was thrown faceup, mucked by dealer, pot shoved toward OP.
                                                                Mental by both player with QQ and TD not to have spotted anything wrong here.
                                                                It appears to have happened so fast that neither the TD or QQ guy had time to speak up before the pot was awarded.
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                                                                Comment


                                                                  #92
                                                                  Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                  As Mellor said.

                                                                  Also, the hero's holding is not the issue at all now. Whether he's fibbing or not doesnt effect the decision.
                                                                  The general concensus is the QQ is being hard done by, but if JP's ruling is the way forward on this one, my issue is that we are penalising the AA guy for playing his hand perfectly. He didnt release his cards to the dealer until after the pot (and chips) was awarded to him, so what more can he do? It just cant be right to penalise the AA player.

                                                                  Connie
                                                                  Hi Connie,

                                                                  I agree there seems to be very little that we can fault Player A (AA), but also Player B (QQ) hasn't done much wrong either.

                                                                  The dealer has made a mistake, these things happen. For me the technically correct ruling would be to run it out QQ v A.

                                                                  However I do see the case for both split pot and awarding the pot to player B (minus Player A's all-in) in the interest of the game. The OP has come on with extra information today which is very different to the situation as it was explained yesterday.

                                                                  Yesterday it was explained player B said nothing and tabled his hand (which shouldn't end up in the muck) today we are been told that player B said "I can't believe I'm going to fold this hand" and then tabled his hand.

                                                                  I'm still at a lost as to how a player who seated at a table says call, I'm assuming he is facing the players on the table when he says this and not over his shoulder in some sort of whisper to the TD. Can be heard by the TD who is behind him and both the dealer and Player A don't heard this.

                                                                  Was there a loud conversation going at the table, did player A have headphones on, was the dealer watching the TV?

                                                                  Would you rule the same if everyone heard Player B's call and the dealer mucked Players A's cards before the showdown.

                                                                  Would you rule the same if again the dealer didn't heard Player B's call (but he tables them) and Player A shows a 7.

                                                                  Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                                                                  this is the correct ruling full stop.

                                                                  simples!
                                                                  So what your saying is...
                                                                  Two players are at all-in on say the flop for example. Player A has top 2 and Player B has bottom set. The board is ran out and Player A hits runner runner for a gut shot but the dealer doesn't see it and awards the pot to Player B. Take the cards in and is about to start dealing when the players on the table say... "that came x,x for a straight"

                                                                  Are you saying that it is to late to award the pot to the correct player at this stage?
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                                                                    #93
                                                                    I've sent this off to...

                                                                    Jack Effel - TD WSOP
                                                                    Marcel Luske - Founder of International Poker Rules
                                                                    Matt Savage - TD WPT & Asst TD WSOP
                                                                    Neil Johnson - Head of Global Poker Tours (Pokerstars)
                                                                    Shawn Lytle - Asst TD WSOP
                                                                    Thomas Lamatsch - TD EPT
                                                                    Thomas Kremser - Ex TD EPT
                                                                    Toby Stone - TD EPT & UKIPT

                                                                    I'll let you know what they think the correct ruling should be when they've all come back to me.
                                                                    €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                                    Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                                    €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                                    CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #94
                                                                      TOTALLY Different situation altogether JP

                                                                      in your situation they are all in on the flop
                                                                      -both have to turn their cards before next cards are run out
                                                                      -if the award of the pot was incorrect then the pot can be returned to correct player
                                                                      as the cards speak for themselves

                                                                      in this situation
                                                                      - the dealer did not hear a call (and either did the table but has nothing to do with ruling but proves he did not signafy an action correctly), he did not move chips forard to signafy a call/action
                                                                      - he turns his cards over without any prior action hence his hand could considered dead for exposing them with possible angleshooting etc
                                                                      - then the dealer takes in his cards into the muck
                                                                      then the hero shows his A after he is awarded the pot and gives him the chips

                                                                      you want the whole deck, after it is washed and shuffled, take out his A and the villian take out his QQ and run a board that has TOTALLY changed/altered plus othe players cards in the deck are now involved.......

                                                                      in my eyes the ruling that was made was correct
                                                                      - Dealer error
                                                                      - Villan did not annouce is call correctly
                                                                      - never a spilt pot
                                                                      Last edited by Maddogg; 01-12-11, 14:46.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #95
                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                        I've sent this off to...

                                                                        Jack Effel - TD WSOP
                                                                        Marcel Luske - Founder of International Poker Rules
                                                                        Matt Savage - TD WPT & Asst TD WSOP
                                                                        Neil Johnson - Head of Global Poker Tours (Pokerstars)
                                                                        Shawn Lytle - Asst TD WSOP
                                                                        Thomas Lamatsch - TD EPT
                                                                        Thomas Kremser - Ex TD EPT
                                                                        Toby Stone - TD EPT & UKIPT

                                                                        I'll let you know what they think the correct ruling should be when they've all come back to me.
                                                                        it does also bring up AGAIN the case for a standard set of rules across the board
                                                                        as there is many different rulling everywhere you go

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #96
                                                                          Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                          The OP has come on with extra information today which is very different to the situation as it was explained yesterday.

                                                                          Yesterday it was explained player B said nothing and tabled his hand (which shouldn't end up in the muck) today we are been told that player B said "I can't believe I'm going to fold this hand" and then tabled his hand.

                                                                          I'm still at a lost as to how a player who seated at a table says call, I'm assuming he is facing the players on the table when he says this and not over his shoulder in some sort of whisper to the TD. Can be heard by the TD who is behind him and both the dealer and Player A don't heard this.

                                                                          ?
                                                                          To be fair to the villian he was probably silent during the last 20 secs of his tank. The verbals suggesting he was folding came earlier. I assume he had convinced himself to fold, changed his mind at last minute and turned over his hand, said call but not loud enough for anyone but the TD to hear him.
                                                                          Everyone else including myself and dealer thought he was showing us how big a hand he was folding and justifying the long tank.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #97
                                                                            Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post
                                                                            To be fair to the villian he was probably silent during the last 20 secs of his tank. The verbals suggesting he was folding came earlier. I assume he had convinced himself to fold, changed his mind at last minute and turned over his hand, said call but not loud enough for anyone but the TD to hear him.
                                                                            Everyone else including myself and dealer thought he was showing us how big a hand he was folding and justifying the long tank.
                                                                            to be fare i have seen this situation a few times but most time the dealers confirm the players action
                                                                            ie are you folding? or did you call?

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #98
                                                                              The lesson here is dont slowroll QQ

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #99
                                                                                Originally posted by dinjo99 View Post

                                                                                During the tank by villian he had shown the TD his cards.
                                                                                (Not sure whether this is proper or not but it happens often in club, nobody has issues with it.)
                                                                                WTF

                                                                                I still dont know how the player with the Qs lets the dealer muck his hand if he has said call. Really makes little sense to me.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
                                                                                  WTF

                                                                                  I still dont know how the player with the Qs lets the dealer muck his hand if he has said call. Really makes little sense to me.
                                                                                  thats what making me think of possible angleshooting

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                                                                                    TOTALLY Different situation altogether JP

                                                                                    in your situation they are all in on the flop
                                                                                    -both have to turn their cards before next cards are run out
                                                                                    -if the award of the pot was incorrect then the pot can be returned to correct player
                                                                                    as the cards speak for themselves

                                                                                    in this situation
                                                                                    - the dealer did not hear a call (and either did the table but has nothing to do with ruling but proves he did not signafy an action correctly), he did not move chips forard to signafy a call/action
                                                                                    - he turns his cards over without any prior action hence his hand could considered dead for exposing them with possible angleshooting etc
                                                                                    - then the dealer takes in his cards into the muck
                                                                                    then the hero shows his A after he is awarded the pot and gives him the chips

                                                                                    you want the whole deck, after it is washed and shuffled, take out his A and the villian take out his QQ and run a board that has TOTALLY changed/altered plus othe players cards in the deck are now involved.......

                                                                                    in my eyes the ruling that was made was correct
                                                                                    - Dealer error
                                                                                    - Villan did not annouce is call correctly
                                                                                    - never a spilt pot
                                                                                    I think you missed the point I was trying to make. It wasn't in relation to the rule in this thread but in general to this comment....

                                                                                    Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                                                                                    This a difficult situation for everyone invovled but i think once the chips are awarded to the player and the cards have been taken in and shuffled then play must continue
                                                                                    Taking my example again were Player A hits top 2 on the flop and Player B his bottom set.

                                                                                    Lets say that they get it all-in on the river.
                                                                                    Player A misreads his hand and say "Two pair" and shows
                                                                                    Player B correctly says "bottom set" and shows.

                                                                                    The dealer doesn't notice that straight and mucks all cards and awards the pot to Player B.

                                                                                    Then the rest of the table say "What are you doing he has a straight"

                                                                                    Your comment above says it's now to late to pass the pot to Player A the rightful winner of the pot.

                                                                                    Maybe this is not how you think and your above comment was only in relation to the OP.

                                                                                    Back to the OP everyone keeps saying that the player with QQ didn't say call, but he obviously did if the TD heard him. I've asked the OP a few times already if there was some reason as to why he and the dealer didn't hear the call, i.e. loud conversation taking place on the table or if the player with QQ turned to the TD and whispered "Call".

                                                                                    If this went down the same way as in the OP with the exception that Player A still had both of his cards i'm sure most people here would agree that the correct ruling would be to take the QQ's taken back out from the muck and run the hand. I sure AA would insist on it this.

                                                                                    Also some players think that Player B should have alerted the dealer sooner or stopped the dealer before he mucked QQ. While I agree with this, it appears that this all happened very fast as according to the OP it was only when the pot was been awarded that the TD and player spoke up. Surely we have to take the TD's opinion here as he spoke up as soon as he noticed something wrong was happening? No, also a dealer can't kill a live hand.

                                                                                    Maybe Player B was not looking at his cards and looking at the other player to see what he was up against.

                                                                                    I think all parties were to blame for above situation occouring the way it did.

                                                                                    1: Player A (AA) wasn't paying attention when Player B (QQ) said "Call".

                                                                                    2: Player B should have stopped the dealer and maybe Player A from mucking his hand.

                                                                                    3: Dealer should have also heard the call, but on not hearing this should have clarified what Player B's intentions were before mucking his cards and awarding the pot to Player A.

                                                                                    4: The TD should have stepped in faster after hearing both the All-in and Call.

                                                                                    Maybe the fairest thing is to split the pot (even if I don't believe it to be the technically correct ruling).
                                                                                    Last edited by JP Poker; 01-12-11, 16:53.
                                                                                    €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                                                    Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                                                    €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                                                    CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                      Taking my example again were Player A hits top 2 on the flop and Player B his bottom set.

                                                                                      Lets say that they get it all-in on the river.
                                                                                      Player A misreads his hand and say "Two pair" and shows
                                                                                      Player B correctly says "bottom set" and shows.

                                                                                      The dealer doesn't notice that straight and mucks all cards and awards the pot to Player B.

                                                                                      Then the rest of the table say "What are you doing he has a straight"

                                                                                      Your comment above says it's now to late to pass the pot to Player A the rightful winner of the pot.

                                                                                      Maybe this is not how you think and your above comment was only in relation to the OP.
                                                                                      JP i understand what your your stressing with this scenario but i think its a totally different situation.....
                                                                                      2 hands have been exposed in play then the turna nd river come heance the cards speak for themselves, then it doesnt matter where the pot was awarded

                                                                                      this situation has all the cards in the muck with the deck and they all have been washed...
                                                                                      hence the whole hand has been altered

                                                                                      my points are
                                                                                      - Dealer made and error (it happens, dealer shold of confirmed action prior to mucking then hand)
                                                                                      - as far as dealer is aware the player with QQ made not intruction that he was calling (no chips moved, annoucement no loud enough)
                                                                                      - eposing your hand does not intend a call, its actually angleshooting
                                                                                      - the player had to have had plenty time, even if it happen fast, to stop the pot been awarded to hero, once the deck is in tact the hand can still be played out
                                                                                      - also telling the TD that ur calling in my opinion doesnt mean your calling, you should tell the dealer as he/she is in control of the hand/table ........TD is there settle disputes and run the game as a whole
                                                                                      -also the hand should not be chopped as this imo a very amauter way to settle any hand

                                                                                      i could talk aboiuut this situation for hours JP and we probaly wouldnt agree so im not going to any further but i am interested in what the list of other TDs come back with so if you could pass them on in detail would be great

                                                                                      as i said earlier there is a call for a standard set of rules to be publish as i do belived Marcel Luske has called for before (correct me if im wrong)

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                        I've sent this off to...

                                                                                        Jack Effel - TD WSOP
                                                                                        Marcel Luske - Founder of International Poker Rules
                                                                                        Matt Savage - TD WPT & Asst TD WSOP
                                                                                        Neil Johnson - Head of Global Poker Tours (Pokerstars)
                                                                                        Shawn Lytle - Asst TD WSOP
                                                                                        Thomas Lamatsch - TD EPT
                                                                                        Thomas Kremser - Ex TD EPT
                                                                                        Toby Stone - TD EPT & UKIPT

                                                                                        I'll let you know what they think the correct ruling should be when they've all come back to me.
                                                                                        Thinly veiled brag imo.

                                                                                        I'll send it off to me Granny and let you know what she say's

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          Originally posted by Maddogg View Post
                                                                                          thats what making me think of possible angleshooting
                                                                                          I was at the table when this happened and 100% there was no angle here and every other player at table will agree to this.I said it that night it was one of if not the strangest thing i have seen with regards to what ruling was correct. There was no animosity between op and villian or anyone else, everyone was just really interested. I am also sure that all those respected TDs that jp mentioned will all not come back with the same ruling.
                                                                                          location green and yellow stretford end

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            Must say I agree with JP's ruling here, but I am really interested to hear what the experts have to say on this one. I was discussing this at lunch and everyone has different opinions.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              Originally posted by Lisa View Post
                                                                                              Must say I agree with JP's ruling here, but I am really interested to hear what the experts have to say on this one. I was discussing this at lunch and everyone has different opinions.
                                                                                              I will have a proper look at it when i'm not so busy and get back to you

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                Originally posted by kaiser soze View Post
                                                                                                I was at the table when this happened and 100% there was no angle here and every other player at table will agree to this.I said it that night it was one of if not the strangest thing i have seen with regards to what ruling was correct. There was no animosity between op and villian or anyone else, everyone was just really interested. I am also sure that all those respected TDs that jp mentioned will all not come back with the same ruling.
                                                                                                I'd be almost 100% that they won't all come back with the same ruling.

                                                                                                My guess is it will be fairly evenly split

                                                                                                I'm going to stand over my rule but will make one change in the interest of fairness. As I agree it would be very harsh on Player A.

                                                                                                I'm still going to run it out QQ v A as it was an all-in and call and should be a showdown. I'll consider the action to be frozen as if both players were all-in for the 1500 as the problem happens after this.

                                                                                                So far....
                                                                                                Thomas Lamatsch
                                                                                                "if the TD is standing beside this table and follows the action and heard the "call" of player B,
                                                                                                he should try to reconstruct both hands and finish the hands.
                                                                                                Just if it 100% guarantee to find out the right cards of both players.
                                                                                                In my opinion only the TD has the right to set both hands live and finish the hand correctly.

                                                                                                If we cant find the four cards in the muck, player A has to win the hand, because B has to protect his hand!!"


                                                                                                Matt Savage
                                                                                                This is a very tough ruling but there is both player A and by the dealer that did not protect either player. If player B made it clear why didn't the dealer or other player hear the call. A should not assume an exposed hand is dead either.

                                                                                                I am likely to pay B the 1,500 from player A which is the original raise and move on to the next hand."
                                                                                                Last edited by JP Poker; 01-12-11, 18:56.
                                                                                                €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
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                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                                  Back to the OP everyone keeps saying that the player with QQ didn't say call, but he obviously did if the TD heard him. I've asked the OP a few times already if there was some reason as to why he and the dealer didn't hear the call, i.e. loud conversation taking place on the table or if the player with QQ turned to the TD and whispered "Call".

                                                                                                  .
                                                                                                  Sorry JP, missed this question earlier.
                                                                                                  There was a TV behind the dealer and most people were keeping an eye on the Man City Arsenal match and I think Man City had just scored so the goal was possibly being discussed at the time. (Maybe Baz can confirm)

                                                                                                  I wouldn't like to suggest that villian whispered but nobody at table heard him say "call"
                                                                                                  As i explained earlier, I think his verbals had convinced everyone he was about to fold so when he turned over QQ without moving chips and nobody hearing anything, we all thought he had folded.

                                                                                                  I know people find it hard to believe that what happened next happened so quick that neither the villian or TD intervened in time but that's the way it was. (I find it hard to believe it myself)

                                                                                                  Thanks to yourself and everyone else for all the time taken with opinions.
                                                                                                  Last edited by dinjo99; 01-12-11, 21:37.

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    Originally posted by kaiser soze View Post
                                                                                                    I was at the table when this happened and 100% there was no angle here and every other player at table will agree to this.I said it that night it was one of if not the strangest thing i have seen with regards to what ruling was correct. There was no animosity between op and villian or anyone else, everyone was just really interested. I am also sure that all those respected TDs that jp mentioned will all not come back with the same ruling.
                                                                                                    i agree, i cant see the same ruling from everyone and i know where this happened and who was involved i reckon it was dealt with pretty quick and game proceeded with no issue............ a testiment to the players, TD and club............

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      Just seen this thread last night I'm the villain of the piece just to add some clarity I had 3 bet are hero ten minutes earlier so when he shoved I said "This would be an easier fold if I hadnt re-raised you a second ago" and when I said CALL (probably a little quietly) then looked at dinjo to see his reaction 2seconds later I realised he was being awarded the pot and that my hand was mucked! I just wanted to say I don't feel either player done anything wrong at all and the ruling implemented by the T.D at the time was the correct and fairest way to handle the situation as to run QQ v an A wasn't right because the hand was mucked after he was awarded the pot (The hand was over)
                                                                                                      Last edited by TrackerDave; 08-12-11, 10:34. Reason: Typo

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                                        I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I'm repeating something here or the OP has already stated some of this.

                                                                                                        From what I can make out the player with QQ called (only the TD heard it, and that's good enough for me).

                                                                                                        He then tabled his hand, and for what ever reason the player with AA and the dealer thought this was a fold and the dealer turns the QQ face down and into the muck and started to award the pot to AA (all very fast).

                                                                                                        As a dealer can not kill a live hand and because the QQ was shown they should be taken back out from the muck as we know what these cards are 100%.

                                                                                                        Unfortunately for the AA he has only shown one A which should also be taken back and the hand ran out.

                                                                                                        It's a tricky one but both the dealer and the AA player presumed the QQ player folded when he hadn't. QQ was tabled and it's a showdown the hand must be played.

                                                                                                        The bare A may hit and still win the pot.
                                                                                                        couldnt agree with you less here JP, I would be much more inclined to award the full pot to AA than to QQ in this situation. I think if you have the QQ you would be wondering where your cards have gone (first mistake), watch the pot being pushed (2nd mistake) then AA fold (other players first mistake)

                                                                                                        It would be incredibly sick to make the AA go all in with just the A here, and would definitely not be in the spirit of the game as there are so few ways to angle shoot in this situation. He was awarded the pot, why WOULDNT you give your hand back? If everyone is to keep asking then you could be accused of slowrolling or slowing the game down and would not be practiable.

                                                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                                                        I personally dislike split pots and would do everything in my power not to have a split pot in a tournament as it effects everyone (not just the two players involved) in the tournament. There should be a winner to every hand. Splitting the pot on the bubble for example would mean instead of one of these guys getting knocking out and the bubble been burst. Someone else goes out on the bubble.

                                                                                                        Again just my opinion no bowing needed
                                                                                                        In your scenario its much more unfair to send someone packing due to a ruling! I would be incredibly annoyed if I had AA in this spot and you made me go all in. It would be incredibly harsh.

                                                                                                        Originally posted by CheckRaise View Post
                                                                                                        Are you sure he didn't say call - the TD seems sure he called.

                                                                                                        Did villain say he said call
                                                                                                        Also we are assuming Hero had AA. Nobody seen his cards.
                                                                                                        Heros hand is irrevelant, even if he had 77 and showed a 7 I would rule the same.

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