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The Hot $11 25k gtd Bad Reship??????

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    The Hot $11 25k gtd Bad Reship??????

    Okay so there's about 45 players left 7k up top. Got moved to this table like 5hands ago been pretty quiet and not many hands on my opponents and I'm like 6/45. It folds to sb and he is a losing player like -8k over a 2k sample and he mr and I decided to 3bet shove. I'm just wondering how many ppl would actually do this really often or prefer to wait preserve there 25bb stack and just put it to use instead. If your villain what would your mr calling range be?



    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 8500/17000 Blinds 2125 Ante (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    SB (t283178)
    Hero (BB) (t435211)
    UTG (t600899)
    UTG+1 (t132111)
    MP1 (t314130)
    MP2 (t241610)
    CO (t180310)
    Button (t328252)

    Hero's M: 10.24

    Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 7
    6 folds, SB bets t34000, Hero raises to t433086 (All-In)

    Total pot: t85000

    #2
    i hate ur shove, u have plenty chips and this is just plain bad.
    you know very little about the villian, so why risk? u eliminate premiums from ur range, so he can call relatively light, hes got like 16 bbs so i doubt he's raise-folding. he can call wit Ax, 2 broadways and any pair, altough ur shove does often scream small-mid pair.
    you have him covered and u have position, so just call and take a flop.

    Comment


      #3
      Min raise out of him is terrible. Dont use his bad play as an excuse to play bad yourself though.

      Calling here with almost ATC should be a profitable play, especially with J7s as it flops a lot better than your average ATC hand.

      Also position and stack sizes are a huge advantage to have, why negate that by shoving?

      Even if you call and fold to c-bet on the flop you still have these advantage on him, with the added bonus of more information (how he plays the hand post flop).

      Basically lots of good reasons to call, almost no reason to shove.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Kobraki View Post
        Min raise out of him is terrible. Dont use his bad play as an excuse to play bad yourself though.

        Calling here with almost ATC should be a profitable play, especially with J7s as it flops a lot better than your average ATC hand.

        Also position and stack sizes are a huge advantage to have, why negate that by shoving?

        Even if you call and fold to c-bet on the flop you still have these advantage on him, with the added bonus of more information (how he plays the hand post flop).

        Basically lots of good reasons to call, almost no reason to shove.
        This is awful advice. Minraise is standard this stage of tourny

        Just fold and move on. You have no reads on him and no need to get into this at the moment

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by ghostface ste View Post
          This is awful advice. Minraise is standard this stage of tourny

          Just fold and move on. You have no reads on him and no need to get into this at the moment
          I disagree.

          Min raising is standard from all positions EXCEPT SB into BB, which is far and away the worst position to be in. If it is a standard play for you then I would suggest its a leak that better players will exploit by taking it postflop.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Kobraki View Post
            I disagree.

            Min raising is standard from all positions EXCEPT SB into BB, which is far and away the worst position to be in. If it is a standard play for you then I would suggest its a leak that better players will exploit by taking it postflop.
            Cheers for the advice. Will take it into consideration

            Comment


              #7
              Is he thinking enough to min-raise to induce a shove? I would personally min with the top of my range in the hope that someone crams over it?

              As for the shove, I kinda like it. He's bad so he's probably trying to use the minimum amount to get a steal through. Nh.

              Comment


                #8
                Just realised I made a mistake when reading the OP, I thought effective stacks were 25BBs.

                With effective stacks at 16bb, it makes it a lot closer between the three choices.

                Given what we know (we can assume based on his record he isnt a great player and will make mistakes, although we're not sure exactly what kind yet) I still think id elect to call.

                Shoving is also completely fine though.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm folding.

                  I'd never flat here without a read. I'd much prefer to know villain's post flop tendencies to ever flat, and even if known it's rare I would chose to flat. Stacks just aren't right for a flat so light.

                  It's really only a shove/fold spot IMO, and again I'd prefer to have a read to shove. I don't hate it against a losing player with a low ABI.


                  @Kobraki, welcome to the forum or at least posting here,
                  Since you misread OP re effective stacks, do you still think it's a leak to min open there from a <20bb stack? I only ask because I'm only ever shoving or min raising there. With a stack >20bb it's a different story but that's not the case. I'd consider it a leak to flat in the BB to a min open with ATC btw.
                  Last edited by Caf; 28-03-12, 23:38.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    i hate the shove, when i come to a new table i prefer to wait for an orbit or two to see what way the table is playing before i get involved, obviously if i arrive shortstacked i don't have that luxury but in this situation i think you can wait another few hands before making a play like this.
                    no way is 5 hands enough to know what type of player he is.
                    i think you can call here and see a flop if you wanted, personally iam not mad about that either.



                    "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Caf View Post
                      I'm folding.

                      I'd never flat here without a read. I'd much prefer to know villain's post flop tendencies to ever flat, and even if known it's rare I would chose to flat. Stacks just aren't right for a flat so light.

                      It's really only a shove/fold spot IMO, and again I'd prefer to have a read to shove. I don't hate it against a losing player with a low ABI.


                      @Kobraki, welcome to the forum or at least posting here,
                      Since you misread OP re effective stacks, do you still think it's a leak to min open there from a <20bb stack? I only ask because I'm only ever shoving or min raising there. With a stack >20bb it's a different story but that's not the case. I'd consider it a leak to flat in the BB to a min open with ATC btw.
                      The problem with minraising sb in general is that you're going to be giving your opponent around 3.5-1 on the call and you will always be playing the hand OOP. This is fine if you have a big hand, but not great for you when you dont (most of the time).
                      The other advantage of making it more than a min raise is you are going to force your opponent into making bigger decisions earlier just by putting in that extra 1/4 blind at the start (more on this down the page).

                      Given stack sizes though I think its a better play to minraise than I origanlly gave credit.

                      I think my default play from the SB would be to shove my entire range with <12BB, min raise 12-15 BBs and make it 2.2-2.5 BBs at 15+ BBs.
                      This is just a guide though as blind battles are very villian/read and sometimes hand dependant which makes MR a 9bb stack against some opponents correct, while shoving 17BB stacks against other opponents the right thing to do. Not knowing the player I would use default play though.

                      Also when I said ATC when I thought it was 25BB, I mean a really wide range not literally any 2 (78os at the bottom probably).
                      This is because we're gonna be getting 3.5-1 on our money to play a pot in position against a weaker opponent, who has put himself in a bad spot. Why say no to this?!

                      Given the 16BB stack flatting that wide would be a mistake. I think we should still have a wid-ish calling range here though as there is still some room for us to maneuver on the flop (a lot less for him), with J7s being somewhere near the bottom of my range.

                      While its not the best spot in the world and will be tricky to play, you're putting your opponent in a much worse spot most of the time.

                      Postflop i bet against this villain almost 100% of the time he checks (usually around the 2bb mark, but texture of flop is important for sizing).
                      If he c-bets (again bet size and texture dependant), I will often minraise bluff. Youd be surprised how often it works. While he may look commited, he isnt, and will need to commit to continue. Sometimes he will call and shove turn or some such, but we're done with the hand at this point unless we actually hit the flop, or back into something.

                      Say he miraises, we call. Flop x x x, he bets 2bb we make it 4. There is now 10.5BB in the pot, and he has 12bb behind. If he shoves there would be 22.5BB in the pot with 10BB to call.

                      Now imagine he makes it 2.25 BBs and we call. Flop x x x. he bets 2.5 BB. Now if we were to min raise, there would be 13BB in the pot with him having 11.25 BB. If he shoves there will now be 24.25BB in the pot, but only 8.75BBs to call. See the difference?

                      Basically that extra 1/4 blind from the sb makes it a lot more unappealing for the BB to try play back at you (at least on later streets).

                      I play this way and although tricky I find it works for me, Its definitely not the only profitable way to play it though.

                      Folding is certainly not a mistake here, and would be the best option vs a lot of opponents.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        thanks guys for the responses. I posted the hand to one of my coaches and he made a short video about the spot I totally agree with him.

                        A complex hand late in the Hot $11 on Pokerstars. This spot comes up often in MTTs and we have to decide constantly how to play it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Readless I'd rather just fold.
                          Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            As you're a fairly experienced live and online player [judging by your posts/threads] on here, i'm curious what your thought process was for shoving? Not a criticism btw, just that with 25bb you're not under pressure to play/push marginal hands.

                            How do you find the sng mentoring?? Just had a look at their forum there, seems to be surprising little threads/posts on it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Yeah i dont think we can justify shoving against these guys there weighed too much towards raise call in my experience, id wanna be pretty nutted putting them in here when your 6/45 and have so much playabilty with your stack.
                              Just threw this spot into a spreadsheet on pxf and if hes raising 15% and calling 9% we only see a return of +3.6k long term, when your risking 283k im not sure what the optimal chip Ev needed is but id say its alot more than that.
                              Even if he opens 25% and still only calls 9% of the time its a net return of 42.9k long term which is almost the same amount of chips you pick up min raising 1 of the next hands and stealing the blinds, obv that needs to be counted as long term net aswel so its about +30k to steal the blinds but i hope you see what im saying about it not being enough of a pick up with your stack + probable edge in field.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Zippppppy147 View Post
                                thanks guys for the responses. I posted the hand to one of my coaches and he made a short video about the spot I totally agree with him.

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QE0_CbTsog
                                Think thats pretty good analysis from the chap without any reads

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  It's close in a turbo but we kinda need a read to justify piling here, folding vs an unknown... so pretty though :|
                                  "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Lplated View Post
                                    As you're a fairly experienced live and online player [judging by your posts/threads] on here, i'm curious what your thought process was for shoving? Not a criticism btw, just that with 25bb you're not under pressure to play/push marginal hands.

                                    How do you find the sng mentoring?? Just had a look at their forum there, seems to be surprising little threads/posts on it.
                                    Unfortunately not much at the time just a mistake on my part no need to get involved It prob would be a better shove if he had 19-20 bb at 16bb it looks like he doesn't plan on mr folding that often I think he will shove some hands to stay unexploitable also. Really just a spot where I don't need to get involved.

                                    Sng Mentors has really improved my games since I've been with them and the coaching is really good and getting to see other guys HH's is pretty cool too. You can only see the public threads because your not a full member there loads more for full members.

                                    Comment

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