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100nl, JJ on the turn

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    100nl, JJ on the turn

    $0.50/$1 No Limit Holdem
    6 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG jungyoungju ($113.60)
    UTG+1 Hero ($110.40)
    CO tomverdoodt ($99.85)
    BTN rodders27 ($111.35)
    SB murph0511 ($102.20)
    BB roquemola ($226.10)

    Pre-Flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
    1 fold, Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, rodders27 calls $3.50, 2 folds

    Flop: ($8.50, 2 players)
    Hero bets $6, rodders27 calls $6

    Turn: ($20.50, 2 players)
    Hero ($100.9)?

    So villan is 31/17 over 130 hands. He likes to flat a lot pre and hes called a few of my opens already but has folded to my cbets so far. He's not a reg and when I check him on PTR afterwards he had 9 hands played so hes brand new to the site.

    Now if I was bluffing here I would barrell this card as I think it folds a lot of his calling range and I could defo get a fold on other high river cards, so conversly now we don't get value from much other than straight draws, he will fold any hands hes floated with that hasn't hit unless its Qx and most small pocket pairs.

    What is the best line and what is the plan for the following river cards depending on your turn line.

    A
    4
    9
    J

    #2
    Whats his AF? If he's passive I would just b/f 14 or the like.
    If he is aggro I'd prob c/c twice.
    Since you will probably never see him again I wouldn't worry too much about balance, establishing history and all that malarky.
    I think I would check all those rivers if I bet the turn.
    If I check the turn and he checks back I prob b/f the 4 and 9 river c/c the A river and c/r the J.
    Something like that anyway

    Comment


      #3
      Assuming hes not a reg as you mentioned your only betting for protection or very thin value so checking is better to keep hes bluffing range in as you havent a strong enough hand to worry about protecting and considering hes not a reg theres a decent chance hell value bet himself and i don't think we can fold here so i certainly prefer a check especially if he floats as hes enough air in hes range and very few hands that will call that we beat

      So on river if i check call the river is irrelevant as im weak, ive induced a bluff, hes either a monster or im miles ahead, hes range is pretty much well ahead or behind so i become a bluff catcher as weve no idea of hes range

      I cant see a good reason to bet the turn without history, but if i did it would be a pretty easy check fold on the river as we fold out all hes bluffs and most stubborn pairs check behind for showdown value.

      Side Note: I think its so so so important to take notes of how people play on paired, 3 flush type boards, (and other textures i.e play FD boards aggro when they have flush or vice versa) even if they just check fold or check call, so often people either play bluffy or passive on these boards and knowing this is a massive massive advantage as people rarely vary their styles and so 2 check folds on a paired board as notes can be a savior when you've TT on 994 board and the villain starts getting aggro

      Comment


        #4
        Start by checking, almost always with the intention of check calling and checking the river. There's very little value to be had from worse hands here.
        Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

        Comment


          #5
          So I checked the turn and he checked back. River was a 4c. This card only hit one of his possible hands of 57 or I guess he could have 44 too. SO I bet $16 here as I felt he would just check back any other pocket pairs or a 6. He raised to $60 and I folded. Anyone rather c/c this river than bet?

          Comment


            #6
            Definitely don't bet this turn. Check call and decide what to do on the river if he bets again.

            I would have check called this flop with JJ to get a bet out of his all his air and so I'd be facing a wider range on the turn. I would then be check calling any turn and deciding whether to call or fold on the river depending on the villain.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by digiman View Post
              So I checked the turn and he checked back. River was a 4c. This card only hit one of his possible hands of 57 or I guess he could have 44 too. SO I bet $16 here as I felt he would just check back any other pocket pairs or a 6. He raised to $60 and I folded. Anyone rather c/c this river than bet?
              No I like the bet. He's not floating as the Q would be a perfect card for him to bet after you checked to him on the turn so when he didn't bet it you can weight his range strongly towards pocket pairs. And after the turn went check-check you get looked up by lots of pocket pairs on this river that, as you said, would otherwise check back. I would bet the river smaller (10-12) though to make sure he doesn't fold 55 and 77.
              Last edited by betsniper; 27-01-10, 11:46.

              Comment


                #8
                I really want to bet the turn because if I check I don't know if I should go c/c, c/c or c/c, c/f. Not sure if it's good though. If I even think we have 40% equity against his calling range on the turn I think we should bet.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by pok3rplaya View Post
                  I really want to bet the turn because if I check I don't know if I should go c/c, c/c or c/c, c/f. Not sure if it's good though. If I even think we have 40% equity against his calling range on the turn I think we should bet.


                  I think your better to bet the turn versus a relatively unknown here too, he will call often enough I think with 77,99,1010 and some of his gutshots, especially 910 that has improved into a double gutter, any diamond combo he has etc. Plenty of value to be had I think. I know betting again will fold out his complete air but without any history you cant be sure that he's going to bluff this turn enough for you to c/c and then c/c the river again. I dont think you have to bet too big, say $14.


                  What is the best line and what is the plan for the following river cards depending on your turn line.

                  A - probably turn my hand into a bluff on any ace.
                  4 - check call
                  9 - hits his range pretty hard do I'd either check call or maybe check fold depending on his betsizing etc.
                  J - either bet or check raise, preferng the later.

                  As played i think you can just check call the river, give him a second chance to make a bluff after you bet the turn. The board hasn't really changed from the turn so no need to change your plan once you decided to bluff catch in the first place.
                  "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                    A - probably turn my hand into a bluff on any ace.
                    To fold out what ?

                    Opr

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Opr View Post
                      To fold out what ?

                      Opr
                      I wouldnt think he'll bluff too often when an a hits on the river if checked to so I'd rather turn my hand into a bluff and hopefully get him to fold the Qx part of his range.
                      "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                      Comment


                        #12
                        That looks a bit mad, your basically betting to fold out a tiny part of his range that he may not even fold.

                        I think he very rarely folds better or calls with worse and we just end up value towning ourselves alot.

                        Opr

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Would you rather check call or check fold the river if you had bet the turn and an ace hit on the river so? Our range for firing 3 barrells from utg+1 here is pretty strong and I think he should fold Qx a fair ammount. If he calls the turn also i'd say Qx becomes a larger part of his range. I dont think he ever calls with worse on the river either but if we check then i think you have to check fold.
                          "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Line Us View Post
                            Would you rather check call or check fold the river if you had bet the turn and an ace hit on the river so? Our range for firing 3 barrells from utg+1 here is pretty strong and I think he should fold Qx a fair ammount. If he calls the turn also i'd say Qx becomes a larger part of his range. I dont think he ever calls with worse on the river either but if we check then i think you have to check fold.
                            Well if he doesn't bluff too often

                            Edit - Your hoping that he called pre with some combination of a Q that is not AQ then floated the flop with that holding.

                            Opr
                            Last edited by Opr; 28-01-10, 13:16.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Opr View Post
                              Well if he doesn't bluff too often

                              Edit - You hoping that he called with some combination of a Q that is not AQ then floated the flop with that holding.

                              Opr
                              No not really, lets say his range for calling the turn is 77,99,1010, QJs, KQs and AQ and he'll have some nut hands every now and again but pretty rarely. I know his range is probably wider than this but I dont think he has that many Ax combos, maybe something like Ad6d that he floated with also.

                              So if we check the river to him then he will more than likely value bet any Ax, any nut hands, maybe KQ and bluff some %. He will probably check behind all his other Qx's and take the pot too. I think if we bet then we can definitely rep a strong range and get him to fold his Qx's but the main reason I rather betting is because he probably wont decide to turn 77,99,1010 into a bluff often enough for us to check call him so we're not losing any value by betting.
                              Last edited by Line Us; 28-01-10, 13:37.
                              "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                              Comment


                                #16
                                What about the times we valuetown ourselves ? If by your reasoning if we check he will rarely bluff and will only bet hands better than ours then c/f becomes fine.

                                tbh betting to fold Qx wouldn't even entering into my thinking here.

                                Opr

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Opr View Post
                                  What about the times we valuetown ourselves ? If by your reasoning if we check he will rarely bluff and will only bet hands better than ours then c/f becomes fine.

                                  tbh betting to fold Qx wouldn't even entering into my thinking here.

                                  Opr

                                  Ya you could be right, he probably doesnt have enough Qx hands in his range on the turn and we may end up value towning ourselves too often actually. I just dont like the idea of check folding the river and am making his range a bit too wide just to justify the triple barrell i think.
                                  "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    B/f the turn

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