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    AK in SB :(

    Spot from a couple of weeks ago that's still bothering me.

    $1050 Stars WCOOP (info as accurate as I can remember)
    Blinds 150/300/25

    UTG (6k) makes it 600 - pretty ABC player

    UTG+1 (11k) makes it 1500 (losing player at ABI of $25, note that he 5 bet jammed with 22 in a redic spot from a previous $215 tourney)

    Folded to me in SB (15k which is about average stack) with AKo???

    #2
    I'd 4bet to about 5k letting villain2 know you are committing yourself, villain1 has 20bigs so should be happy enough to take him on. What are villain2 stats?

    Comment


      #3
      I'd let it go stat less tbh, might seem weak but unless guys have shown a tendency to open and 3b/4b light from ep then AKo will not be doing well vs their ep open and 3b range.
      Seems like a decent spot to 4b fold perhaps but only if you feel the 3bettor has a 3b/f range but given info you have given I just fold tbh.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by brady23 View Post
        I'd let it go stat less tbh, might seem weak but unless guys have shown a tendency to open and 3b/4b light from ep then AKo will not be doing well vs their ep open and 3b range.
        Seems like a decent spot to 4b fold perhaps but only if you feel the 3bettor has a 3b/f range but given info you have given I just fold tbh.
        Ughhh, you're against a 6k and 11k stack so 4b folding any hand there is bad, nevermind AK

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
          Ughhh, you're against a 6k and 11k stack so 4b folding any hand there is bad, nevermind AK
          Oh yeah I never 4b fold here in this particular spot, just in general I mean, seems like a decent 4b fold if deeper in a vacuum

          Just reread OP by me and was badly explained by me, my bad

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
            I'd 4bet to about 5k letting villain2 know you are committing yourself, villain1 has 20bigs so should be happy enough to take him on. What are villain2 stats?
            this thinking is wrong, why would we want to show villain we are committing ourselves allowing him to fold all weaker hands and shove when he's nutted, 5K is a massive amount to 3b to here aswell, make it 3.4-3.6k and snap call shoves from both.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by chips1234 View Post
              this thinking is wrong, why would we want to show villain we are committing ourselves allowing him to fold all weaker hands and shove when he's nutted, 5K is a massive amount to 3b to here aswell, make it 3.4-3.6k and snap call shoves from both.
              Your right, we want him to call off with his AQ's etc but I am always 4betting and snapping off both as you said but do you not think your 4bet is too small, say if villain1 decides to fold and villain 2 just flats our near 1.5x, now we are oop, ok perfect if we hit but if we don't are we just going to ck fold/cbet or what's your thinking behind it, stacks are very awkward, interested to know.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                Your right, we want him to call off with his AQ's etc but I am always 4betting and snapping off both as you said but do you not think your 4bet is too small, say if villain1 decides to fold and villain 2 just flats our near 1.5x, now we are oop, ok perfect if we hit but if we don't are we just going to ck fold/cbet or what's your thinking behind it, stacks are very awkward, interested to know.
                we are 4 betting to this amount to allow the 11k stack to shove worse(we have info he has 5b jammed 22 in a previous hand) when we 4b to this amount we want to give him the idea that he has fold equity v us, basically were giving him rope to hang himself, i dont think he's flatting us too much given the info also, think the only thing that makes this spot awkward is the 20bb stack, obv if we get flatted its kinda gross when we miss the flop, dont think im just check folding and giving up that seems too weak i think we kinda have to cbet but that all depends on board texture aswell.

                not sure if any of that makes sense have tables up so prob rambled a bit

                Comment


                  #9
                  It does make sense in the way that you would play it.
                  I just recall a recent video from Assassinato with a similar play that he nearly always bets bigger with AK from sb/bb as he is oop even in this spot, maybe my 5k bet is too big but at the same time I don't want to be giving him the chance to just flat, I think this is the worse possible outcome.
                  Been watching his 22 part series on his Wcoop 1k 2nd chance chop, very interesting tbh.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                    It does make sense in the way that you would play it.
                    I just recall a recent video from Assassinato with a similar play that he nearly always bets bigger with AK from sb/bb as he is oop even in this spot, maybe my 5k bet is too big but at the same time I don't want to be giving him the chance to just flat, I think this is the worse possible outcome.
                    Been watching his 22 part series on his Wcoop 1k 2nd chance chop, very interesting tbh.
                    the 4b size i said is fine i think. in relation to the guys stack its somewhere close to a 3rd of his stack so for that reason i don't think he's gonna flat alot, if we were deeper we should be going bigger because we are more likely to be flatted when playing deeper obv. along with the info we have about him 5b jamming before i really think we arent getting flatted alot.

                    are you sure assassinato said he does that with just AK seems kinda bad as regs will obv pick up on that quite quickly and he will end up just turning his hand face up all the time.
                    Last edited by chips1234; 21-09-13, 17:05.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by chips1234 View Post
                      are you sure assassinato said he does that with just AK seems kinda bad as regs will obv pick up on that quite quickly and he will end up just turning his hand face up all the time.
                      I will get up the video again later with one of these spots with the AK and report back, but ya i'm fairly certain.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                        I will get up the video again later with one of these spots with the AK and report back, but ya i'm fairly certain.
                        I'm fairly sure he said he 3-bets OOP bigger with his whole range, not just AK. I have not watched the new videos though.
                        Last edited by peterswellman; 21-09-13, 16:59. Reason: fixed grammar

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                          I'm fairly sure he said he 3-bets OOP with bigger with his whole range, not just AK. I have not watched the new videos though.
                          this is what i thought he would of said, obv everyone should be 3-betting slightly bigger oop

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                            I'm fairly sure he said he 3-bets OOP with bigger with his whole range, not just AK. I have not watched the new videos though.
                            This is correct

                            Comment


                              #15
                              lol, total opposite, min from mp 1200, flat on btn, he likes to squeeze a little smaller for value from sb (35bigs at the time), he makes it 3800, my huge mistake boi's

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Man, I really don't understand tournament poker anymore. I'd be shoving here, hoping to get HU against either of them. Don't mind if they fold, but there's a good chance UTG+1 will level himself into a call with any old bollox.

                                Flatting in the hope of playing fit/fold on the flop isn't terrible either given stack sizes. UTG might be induced to shove and we know that UTG+1 will overvalue small pairs in this kind of spot.
                                "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  So Andy, you're saying shoving>flatting, but after that which is next from 4-betting to folding?
                                  I'm sure none of us have a distinctive correct answer and so dont think I'm dismissing any answers because I'm absolutely not otherwise I wouldn't have posted.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Well I think 4-betting small is a mistake because a) it looks too strong so players will not shove light over it, and b) you get flatted too much and have so little fold equity on flops that you miss, which is most of them.

                                    But maybe in 2013 4-betting small is more balanced. I'm not sure.
                                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I think flat aswel andy, utg has the widest range right now flatting is the only way to induce that to shove, if they both get in we have an easy fold, i think cold 4 betting these positions will rarely get us in vs AQ, so i dont think thats great to be resigned to a flip at best vs the 11k stack (im not sure how relevant it is he got in 22 for a 5b in another tourney we havent been given positions or stacks). Shoving doesn't achieve much i dont think utg1 shows up with any old shit here often, id be skeptical he has a bluff range giving sizing vs the 22bb stack id nearly weigh him towards TT+ AK+ as a get in range & pretty tight as the original 3b aswel can see most just flatting AQ.

                                      I even think its close to a fold but would call in game,
                                      Peel > Fold > 4b > Jam. If 4b chips sizing is fine i just dont think sitting on 50bigs in a great structure we need to always get it in vs tight ranges in these positions and sizings, he has gone pretty large vs an utg 22bb stack afterall.

                                      /2Cents
                                      Last edited by Laois Hammer; 22-09-13, 08:06.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                                        Well I think 4-betting small is a mistake because a) it looks too strong so players will not shove light over it, and b) you get flatted too much and have so little fold equity on flops that you miss, which is most of them.

                                        But maybe in 2013 4-betting small is more balanced. I'm not sure.
                                        a and b contradict each other

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I think I like a call in this spot. We have effective position and stack sizes are a bit meh for cold 4 betting

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            im snap shoving id prob snap shove jj + hear AQ SUITED AFTER SEEN what he done with 22 he could easily be 3 betting 88 + orAJ OF AQ OR WORSE hear thinking its good vs utg WITH 20 BIG HE IS A LOOSING AND BAD PLAYER ,,,,,,,,, = CALLING OF LIGHT ?
                                            but with out any history im still shoving AK OF PRE HEAR TO A LOOSING PLAYER S 3BET
                                            ALSO HAVE FOLDED PRE IN THIS SPOT MANY OF TIMES BUT TO TIGHT 3 BETTERS
                                            Last edited by jazzyfish; 22-09-13, 20:10.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              I'm flatting here given awkward stack sizes and tourney structure.. Happy to play for 20 of my own bigs vs UTG if he shoves, and we have an easy decision should UTG+1 reshove with minimal damage done to our stack.

                                              4b for me is worst play- if either player flats then we're in a ridiculously awkward oop spot if we miss flop, and would have about 12 bigs in already. Shoving nearly all flops we miss vs UTG given effective stack and chk/folding vs UTG+1 should he call pre.

                                              Definitely not randomly shoving here in this structure as we'll very rarely get a call from anything weaker and really would not wanna be flipping at this stage of tourny

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                a and b contradict each other
                                                Not in the mind of the bad player. They don't want to fold but they don't want to raise, so they flat too much preflop. It's the same reason they open limp.

                                                Obviously good players think otherwise but I don't think either of these players are described as good.
                                                "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  So what I see so far is -

                                                  3 Flat calls
                                                  2 4-Bets
                                                  2 Jams
                                                  1 Fold

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    flatting AK here is delicious to be honest.
                                                    People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                    Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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                                                      #27
                                                      Hud stats would be helpful here. But with just the reads above.

                                                      I 4bet snap in game pretty much 100% of the time but folding here will never be terrible. The sizing Chips suggested seems about right. Anything from 3.2-3.6.

                                                      Don't understand flatting at all. I presume we just c/f flops whenever we don't flop a pair? We struggle to get value from worse when we do make a pair also. It's not like we stack UTG+1 that often if he has QQ or JJ on A or K high boards.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by GaryT View Post
                                                        Hud stats would be helpful here. But with just the reads above.

                                                        I 4bet snap in game pretty much 100% of the time but folding here will never be terrible. The sizing Chips suggested seems about right. Anything from 3.2-3.6.

                                                        Don't understand flatting at all. I presume we just c/f flops whenever we don't flop a pair? We struggle to get value from worse when we do make a pair also. It's not like we stack UTG+1 that often if he has QQ or JJ on A or K high boards.

                                                        Sorry but don't use any tracking software

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Cold calling a 3-bet OOP here with AK just looks dirty to me.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                                            I think flat aswel andy, utg has the widest range right now flatting is the only way to induce that to shove, if they both get in we have an easy fold, i think cold 4 betting these positions will rarely get us in vs AQ, so i dont think thats great to be resigned to a flip at best vs the 11k stack (im not sure how relevant it is he got in 22 for a 5b in another tourney we havent been given positions or stacks). Shoving doesn't achieve much i dont think utg1 shows up with any old shit here often, id be skeptical he has a bluff range giving sizing vs the 22bb stack id nearly weigh him towards TT+ AK+ as a get in range & pretty tight as the original 3b aswel can see most just flatting AQ.

                                                            I even think its close to a fold but would call in game,
                                                            Peel > Fold > 4b > Jam. If 4b chips sizing is fine i just dont think sitting on 50bigs in a great structure we need to always get it in vs tight ranges in these positions and sizings, he has gone pretty large vs an utg 22bb stack afterall.

                                                            /2Cents
                                                            the bad thing about flatting hear is wear giving the loosing player a chance to blow us of our had with worse

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Laois Hammer View Post
                                                              I think flat aswel andy, utg has the widest range right now flatting is the only way to induce that to shove, if they both get in we have an easy fold, i think cold 4 betting these positions will rarely get us in vs AQ, so i dont think thats great to be resigned to a flip at best vs the 11k stack (im not sure how relevant it is he got in 22 for a 5b in another tourney we havent been given positions or stacks). Shoving doesn't achieve much i dont think utg1 shows up with any old shit here often, id be skeptical he has a bluff range giving sizing vs the 22bb stack id nearly weigh him towards TT+ AK+ as a get in range & pretty tight as the original 3b aswel can see most just flatting AQ.

                                                              I even think its close to a fold but would call in game,
                                                              Peel > Fold > 4b > Jam. If 4b chips sizing is fine i just dont think sitting on 50bigs in a great structure we need to always get it in vs tight ranges in these positions and sizings, he has gone pretty large vs an utg 22bb stack afterall.

                                                              /2Cents
                                                              ^^^^ This.

                                                              The normal 'inducing to make a villain shove wider' theory does not apply to this situation. This is one of the rare spots when it should not be applied in general. Cold 4betting in the dynamic in front of us will never get a weaker hand to shove (even to a slightly loosing player unless it is clear he is a whale), it is just too obvious you have a hand that is happy to play for stacks vrs utg. You also cannot 4bet to 1/3 of utg+1 stack and fold as it is a loosing play to 3bet/4bet fold 1/3 of your stack or anyone's stack in general.

                                                              In this position you should realise that you are up against strong ranges. Some dominate us (AA,KK), we chop against the same hand (All other variations of AK) and the others we flip against (QQ,JJ,TT). Is there a case for utg+1 3betting AQ, sure, seeing as he is a loosing player maybe this is one of the mistakes he makes regularly but he will not 5bet shove this hand. Right here lets say we hold AdKs, we have 2 hands dominate us (AA/KK) with 3 possible combinations of AA (AhAc/AhAs/AcAs) and 3 combo's of KK (KhKc/KhKd/KcKd) which is 6 total. There are 9 other combo's of AK (AhKc/AhKd/AhKh/AcKh/AcKd/AcKc/AsKc/AsKd/AsKh) and finally, there are 18 possible combo's of QQ/JJ/TT (I'm not arsed typing them out).
                                                              So to sum up we have 6 combo's beating us, 9 we chop with and 18 that we flip against, but inducing vrs any of the above is unnecessary as 27 combo's of the above (AA/KK/AK/QQ/JJ) all more than likely shove over our 4bets. 6 combo's of TT will probably fold along with the AQ we talked about. In theory all we are playing for is the money in the middle (2,775), we only have 200 invested, a call is costing 1,500 of our 15k stack (10%) with the chance of winning whats in there already (20% ish) and possibly more on the right flops. A 4bet will commit us vrs all of the above combo's which really is not what we want this early with an above average stack vrs these tight ranges.

                                                              I think flatting here becomes a much better option than 4bet inducing or shoving, who really wants to play for stacks on the above information? Once we flat we obv call utg's shove if utg+1 folds. Utg will now have the same range we give utg+1 so it's fine to be committed vrs a 6k stack, in saying that, utg folds an absurd amount of times here so our concentration should be just on utg+1. Post flop will be pretty abc in these pots, if you miss you give up to cbets if there is one. If you hit on a K high flop I believe this to be the best flop to extract value from QQ/JJ/TT, one possibly two streets depending on if there is a cbet by the villain. Of course, we do get bet off the pot by other Ak's some of the time but it is still not worth risking your entire stack just for the sake of this reason alone. Loosing 10% of an above average stack is ok, loosing 100% is not! It is not all doom and gloom, you will win a nice pot if you hit which adds a minimum 20% to your stack.

                                                              Personally, I have just mucked AKo pre here before and I dont see anything wrong in doing so. I think AK suited I call and AKo I muck. If we were in position it would be a call regardless of suits for me.

                                                              For the times he is a complete whale well then there is going to be much better spots to get his chips in.
                                                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                ^^^^ This.

                                                                The normal 'inducing to make a villain shove wider' theory does not apply to this situation. This is one of the rare spots when it should not be applied in general. Cold 4betting in the dynamic in front of us will never get a weaker hand to shove (even to a slightly loosing player unless it is clear he is a whale), it is just too obvious you have a hand that is happy to play for stacks vrs utg. You also cannot 4bet to 1/3 of utg+1 stack and fold as it is a loosing play to 3bet/4bet fold 1/3 of your stack or anyone's stack in general.

                                                                In this position you should realise that you are up against strong ranges. Some dominate us (AA,KK), we chop against the same hand (All other variations of AK) and the others we flip against (QQ,JJ,TT). Is there a case for utg+1 3betting AQ, sure, seeing as he is a loosing player maybe this is one of the mistakes he makes regularly but he will not 5bet shove this hand. Right here lets say we hold AdKs, we have 2 hands dominate us (AA/KK) with 3 possible combinations of AA (AhAc/AhAs/AcAs) and 3 combo's of KK (KhKc/KhKd/KcKd) which is 6 total. There are 9 other combo's of AK (AhKc/AhKd/AhKh/AcKh/AcKd/AcKc/AsKc/AsKd/AsKh) and finally, there are 18 possible combo's of QQ/JJ/TT (I'm not arsed typing them out).
                                                                So to sum up we have 6 combo's beating us, 9 we chop with and 18 that we flip against, but inducing vrs any of the above is unnecessary as 27 combo's of the above (AA/KK/AK/QQ/JJ) all more than likely shove over our 4bets. 6 combo's of TT will probably fold along with the AQ we talked about. In theory all we are playing for is the money in the middle (2,775), we only have 200 invested, a call is costing 1,500 of our 15k stack (10%) with the chance of winning whats in there already (20% ish) and possibly more on the right flops. A 4bet will commit us vrs all of the above combo's which really is not what we want this early with an above average stack vrs these tight ranges.

                                                                I think flatting here becomes a much better option than 4bet inducing or shoving, who really wants to play for stacks on the above information? Once we flat we obv call utg's shove if utg+1 folds. Utg will now have the same range we give utg+1 so it's fine to be committed vrs a 6k stack, in saying that, utg folds an absurd amount of times here so our concentration should be just on utg+1. Post flop will be pretty abc in these pots, if you miss you give up to cbets if there is one. If you hit on a K high flop I believe this to be the best flop to extract value from QQ/JJ/TT, one possibly two streets depending on if there is a cbet by the villain. Of course, we do get bet off the pot by other Ak's some of the time but it is still not worth risking your entire stack just for the sake of this reason alone. Loosing 10% of an above average stack is ok, loosing 100% is not! It is not all doom and gloom, you will win a nice pot if you hit which adds a minimum 20% to your stack.

                                                                Personally, I have just mucked AKo pre here before and I dont see anything wrong in doing so. I think AK suited I call and AKo I muck. If we were in position it would be a call regardless of suits for me.

                                                                For the times he is a complete whale well then there is going to be much better spots to get his chips in.
                                                                if utg + 1 is a winning player you still calling or just folding pre
                                                                when you flat hear are you always check folding to a c bet to a loosing player when you miss ? is calling hear not giving utg to much of a chance to easily out draw us hear with weaker holding s when your giving him sick odds to flat around 7-1 8-1 on his money ,,,,
                                                                if utg+1 is 3 betting and then c-betting 100% in 3 bet pot s should we at least be calling one street ? now we have no stats on villian in this but just curious overall for future spots
                                                                Last edited by jazzyfish; 24-09-13, 10:10.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Nice detailed post Jason, ty.

                                                                  In hindsight, I agree with a lot of the points here.

                                                                  In Game, I ruled out shoving straight away. The other 3 options had merit and folding was my first thought and move on. I know this shouldn't sway your thoughts, but as I was in on a freerole, I decided to play it aggressively so ruled out flatting & decided to 4 bet (to 4000, i believe).

                                                                  Got a bit weird then as UTG folded and UTG+1 (11k) flatted my 4-bet leaving 7k behind him & 9kish in middle.

                                                                  Flop 2 9 10r

                                                                  Hero?
                                                                  Last edited by Dice75; 24-09-13, 09:31.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    I think its very hard to make the right decision with out any stats so maybe a flat is the correct play. Have to get on the software dice

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by jazzyfish View Post
                                                                      if utg + 1 is a winning player you still calling or just folding pre
                                                                      when you flat hear are you always check folding to a c bet to a loosing player when you miss ? is calling hear not giving utg to much of a chance to easily out draw us hear with weaker holding s when your giving him sick odds to flat around 7-1 8-1 on his money ,,,,
                                                                      if utg+1 is 3 betting and then c-betting 100% in 3 bet pot s should we at least be calling one street ? now we have no stats on villian in this but just curious overall for future spots
                                                                      Calling/folding same as above. Yeah because of his strong betting range. Yeah it does but again that's ok imo as we only hold AK and I don't like risking over 10% of our stack just to combat a guy possibly over calling. If he cbets 100% I guess you could peal flop but even if goes check/check on the turn what do you do on river vrs that range? This becomes another hh in itself. Just for future spots, if you already know the above then you should be able to come to a better conclusion on what to do as you will have more information.
                                                                      Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                      My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                      My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                        Nice detailed post Jason, ty.

                                                                        In hindsight, I agree with a lot of the points here.

                                                                        In Game, I ruled out shoving straight away. The other 3 options had merit and folding was my first thought and move on. I know this shouldn't sway your thoughts, but as I was in on a freerole, I decided to play it aggressively so ruled out flatting & decided to 4 bet (to 4000, i believe).

                                                                        Got a bit weird then as UTG folded and UTG+1 (11k) flatted my 4-bet leaving 7k behind him & 9kish in middle.

                                                                        Flop 2 9 10r

                                                                        Hero?
                                                                        I think just bet/call because there is so much in there right now you can treat it as an all in pot.
                                                                        Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                        My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                        My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                          I think just bet/call because there is so much in there right now you can treat it as an all in pot.
                                                                          Bet pot & stick him in or bet 4-5k, or is there really any difference here.

                                                                          fwiw Villain had 88, I bet pot & he called and held.

                                                                          I really don't get his line here, is he really trapping with 88?

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                            Bet pot & stick him in or bet 4-5k, or is there really any difference here.

                                                                            fwiw Villain had 88, I bet pot & he called and held.

                                                                            I really don't get his line here, is he really trapping with 88?
                                                                            nope, he figured you'd repop preflop with a higher pair and flat everything else. Perhaps he has stats on your tendancies
                                                                            He made the right play for the wrong reasons imo. Any paint on that flop and he is in no mans land.
                                                                            People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                                                                              Bet pot & stick him in or bet 4-5k, or is there really any difference here.

                                                                              fwiw Villain had 88, I bet pot & he called and held.

                                                                              I really don't get his line here, is he really trapping with 88?
                                                                              Bet 4k roughly again yeah. Ok he's a whale!
                                                                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by DeadParrot View Post
                                                                                nope, he figured you'd repop preflop with a higher pair and flat everything else. Perhaps he has stats on your tendancies
                                                                                He made the right play for the wrong reasons imo. Any paint on that flop and he is in no mans land.
                                                                                I did repop preflop - from the SB - versus an UTG raise - and a reraise behind. I'm hardly weak!

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  yeah, it made sense in my head
                                                                                  take what I said and apply the opposite
                                                                                  People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
                                                                                  Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Cool hand, thanks for posting it. On reflection I think flatting is the best play, and the way you played it was the worst. He will "put you on AK" way, way too much.
                                                                                    "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I liked reading the responses and I still don't like a flat, deeper, yes perhaps but this shallow I wouldn't tend to agree.
                                                                                      I think I fold tbh. I could be convinced AKs is a flat but I think AKo this shallow just flops too poorly

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I feel pretty sure that Blaaaahs way is losing -EV. Everything he posts sounds like a reason to fold. Which I can understand but then to advocate flatting still confuses me. I've pretty much understood the reasoning behind practically every post he's made on here except this 1.. If he feels he can make better decisions based on timing and bet sizing then ok, but based on the reads given it doesn't make sense to me..

                                                                                        I'm 75% sure I could prove it's losing money... But I've pretty much been drunk since reading that post so haven;t actually worked it out!!


                                                                                        I would love to actually see the maths on it. 4 bet calling pretty much has to show a profit. I don't believe flatting does.. ( i could easily be wrong.)

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by GaryT View Post
                                                                                          I feel pretty sure that Blaaaahs way is losing -EV. Everything he posts sounds like a reason to fold. Which I can understand but then to advocate flatting still confuses me. I've pretty much understood the reasoning behind practically every post he's made on here except this 1.. If he feels he can make better decisions based on timing and bet sizing then ok, but based on the reads given it doesn't make sense to me..

                                                                                          I'm 75% sure I could prove it's losing money... But I've pretty much been drunk since reading that post so haven;t actually worked it out!!


                                                                                          I would love to actually see the maths on it. 4 bet calling pretty much has to show a profit. I don't believe flatting does.. ( i could easily be wrong.)
                                                                                          By all means do go ahead as I'm interested to see but I think you missed my point tho Gary. I think overall AK in this spot might be a loosing hand no matter what action you take if the player is not a complete whale. The spot happens so rarely that looking long term is a mistake, damage control with your big stack should trump any slightly +ev high variance decision to get your stack in here. It's ok to give up slightly +ev spots in tournaments to find much better spots in the future, especially with your stack at this point. I also said I would just fold pre here.

                                                                                          I know flatting Ak is not +ev but it's only slightly -ev long term in this spot. I much prefer that than taking a slightly +ev punt on my entire stack in a great structured tourny.
                                                                                          Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                          My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by GaryT View Post
                                                                                            Hud stats would be helpful here. But with just the reads above.

                                                                                            I 4bet snap in game pretty much 100% of the time but folding here will never be terrible. The sizing Chips suggested seems about right. Anything from 3.2-3.6.

                                                                                            Don't understand flatting at all. I presume we just c/f flops whenever we don't flop a pair? We struggle to get value from worse when we do make a pair also. It's not like we stack UTG+1 that often if he has QQ or JJ on A or K high boards.
                                                                                            just curious what to ye do when you get flated hear you check calling a shove on any board ?or check fold ? also do you not feel that there can just be never fluffs in your range hear so your hand is basically face up your like your never gonna show up with KQ AJ OR 88 OR 99 OR ANYTHING OR WEAKER RANGE with these stack size its not a play you can keep balanced and vs bad players wear we prob wont have to be balanced to much we still have the risk of being flated and blown of our hand

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by jazzyfish View Post
                                                                                              just curious what to ye do when you get flated hear you check calling a shove on any board ?or check fold ? also do you not feel that there can just be never fluffs in your range hear so your hand is basically face up your like your never gonna show up with KQ AJ OR 88 OR 99 OR ANYTHING OR WEAKER RANGE with these stack size its not a play you can keep balanced and vs bad players wear we prob wont have to be balanced to much we still have the risk of being flated and blown of our hand
                                                                                              plus if ye do the math because your tighten up there shoving ranges this is barley going be a break even cal more than slighty -ev over a large sample

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                                                                                                #48
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                                                                                                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  How does one even find a video like that.
                                                                                                  Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                  My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                  My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

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