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PLayers act out of turn, my hand declared dead

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    PLayers act out of turn, my hand declared dead

    Views on this? I figure different clubs have different rules on it...

    I am UTG in seat 9 (9 handed game). Player in seat 1 folds before I have acted. Players in seats 2,3,4 quickly flat call. Dealer doesnt say 'fold,call,call...' or indeed anything. I am still looking at my chips deciding what to do. I then raise still not knowing any of the rest have called out of turn. Dealer stops the action calls over t.d, explains the situation and the t.d. declares my hand dead,saying its my job to control the action at other end of table.

    Seemed harsh, but i know if a few players have acted behind me, in many tournaments that would mean my hand is indeed dead...

    #2
    Originally posted by Thepebble View Post
    Views on this? I figure different clubs have different rules on it...

    I am UTG in seat 9 (9 handed game). Player in seat 1 folds before I have acted. Players in seats 2,3,4 quickly flat call. Dealer doesnt say 'fold,call,call...' or indeed anything. I am still looking at my chips deciding what to do. I then raise still not knowing any of the rest have called out of turn. Dealer stops the action calls over t.d, explains the situation and the t.d. declares my hand dead,saying its my job to control the action at other end of table.

    Seemed harsh, but i know if a few players have acted behind me, in many tournaments that would mean my hand is indeed dead...
    lol its dealers job to control the action. You've none nothing wrong

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      #3
      What a joke its not your problem its the dealers
      airport, lol

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        #4
        Originally posted by Thepebble View Post
        Views on this? I figure different clubs have different rules on it...

        I am UTG in seat 9 (9 handed game). Player in seat 1 folds before I have acted. Players in seats 2,3,4 quickly flat call. Dealer doesnt say 'fold,call,call...' or indeed anything. I am still looking at my chips deciding what to do. I then raise still not knowing any of the rest have called out of turn. Dealer stops the action calls over t.d, explains the situation and the t.d. declares my hand dead,saying its my job to control the action at other end of table.

        Seemed harsh, but i know if a few players have acted behind me, in many tournaments that would mean my hand is indeed dead...
        Terrible ruling it's the dealers job to control the action not yours, where did this happen? You should still have all your options open to you fold/call/raise, if you call the action behind you should stay the same if you raise they should have the option to call the raise or fold and not be able to reraise.
        "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

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          #5
          Name and shame. That's a terrible decision.

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            #6
            Fairly sure when you get a TD on here he's going to say it's the correct ruling..think if 3 people act before it's brought to the attention then that means your hand is dead..fairly sure anyway.
            Pining for Wa'erford

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              #7
              worse decision i ever heard . would put it with some pub rules that they think up
              really
              what should have happened here was you been giving the right to call or raise or fold
              now if you raise the other players been giving the right to call or take back there chips and fold .
              then after that the dealer given a clatter for not looking after the game properly

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                #8
                Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                Fairly sure when you get a TD on here he's going to say it's the correct ruling..think if 3 people act before it's brought to the attention then that means your hand is dead..fairly sure anyway.
                Not 100% on that, it is up to a player to report an error when they see one, ie. at showdown if the pot is being awarded to the 2nd best hand, or if they've only been dealt one card etc.

                However I really can't find a case for ruling the hand dead, it is a bit of a lazy cop out by the T.D.

                Also, Corkie123, the players who acted out of turn may not take their chips back.
                Well, maybe in Cork. But who cares what happens there.
                ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                  Not 100% on that, it is up to a player to report an error when they see one, ie. at showdown if the pot is being awarded to the 2nd best hand, or if they've only been dealt one card etc.

                  However I really can't find a case for ruling the hand dead, it is a bit of a lazy cop out by the T.D.

                  Also, Corkie123, the players who acted out of turn may not take their chips back.
                  Well, maybe in Cork. But who cares what happens there.
                  It leaves a huge potential angle open if you don't. eg utg +1 folds out of turn, then utg could then decide not to say anything and let it fold round before announcing he hasn't acted yet...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by JamieCarra View Post
                    It leaves a huge potential angle open if you don't. eg utg +1 folds out of turn, then utg could then decide not to say anything and let it fold round before announcing he hasn't acted yet...
                    If 3 folds have occurred before it is found that utg has not yet acted, or a call & a fold, then the utg hand is entitled to be ruled dead. In most cases it is not an angle, & the td will allow utg to act in the spirit of fairness. An alert dealer would usually have copped the out of turn action before it got too far anyway. But it would be a big advantage to utg player to know what 3 players behind were going to do before he has time to act.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                      Not 100% on that, it is up to a player to report an error when they see one, ie. at showdown if the pot is being awarded to the 2nd best hand, or if they've only been dealt one card etc.

                      However I really can't find a case for ruling the hand dead, it is a bit of a lazy cop out by the T.D.

                      Also, Corkie123, the players who acted out of turn may not take their chips back.
                      Well, maybe in Cork. But who cares what happens there.
                      well as all ye bog trotters know fck all about rules but the ones ye make up yereselfs i tell you

                      if utg flats all who called stands but if he raises then action has changed and they can take back there chips and either fold call or reraise and thats ept wsop ruling

                      but i think jamie carra is right and if i was td i only allow him to call only as so much action has taken place

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                        Fairly sure when you get a TD on here he's going to say it's the correct ruling..think if 3 people act before it's brought to the attention then that means your hand is dead..fairly sure anyway.
                        I have read stuff on this before but my understanding was if a significant amount of action had happened not just a couple of calls.
                        "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by tylerdurden94 View Post
                          I have read stuff on this before but my understanding was if a significant amount of action had happened not just a couple of calls.
                          TDA Poker Rule on significant action.

                          32: Substantial Action.
                          Substantial Action is defined as either: A) any two actions in turn, at least one of which must involve putting chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds); OR B) any combination of three actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, or fold).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by JamieCarra View Post
                            It leaves a huge potential angle open if you don't. eg utg +1 folds out of turn, then utg could then decide not to say anything and let it fold round before announcing he hasn't acted yet...
                            Obv a very valid point, which does place the blame back on the dealer not controlling the table action.

                            Lets bring the scenario back to reality for a sec,
                            Utg is in seat 9, see's his cards, is thinking about the raise, which takes a few seconds,he's aware he will be playing the rest of the hand OOP possibly and taking other factors into account.
                            Now in this time, your general live player takes no thinking time at all to limp, and in this case, 3 unsighted players limp out of turn.

                            Now the lads in seat 1+2 possibly cant even see seat 9, and visa versa, so neither party can be alert to the error is action. Yet as the T.D. rule shows, it was the Utg player who was solely punished.

                            I can't advocate that. Does player Utg+1 not get a warning for acting out of turn at all?
                            ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

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                              #15
                              Hand will be dead in most cases.

                              While seat 1 acted out of turn and the dealer didn't pick up on it. It is still seat 9 's responsibility to protect himself and bring it to the tables attention before action goes to far.

                              Allowing 4 players to act behind you before you bring it to the tables attention is alot action.

                              Lets say the action went like this...
                              UTG seat 9 - Doesn't act

                              UTG+1 Seat 1 - Makes it 3x
                              UTG+2 Seat 2 - Repops it to 8x
                              UTG+3 Seat 3 - Repops all-in

                              Can anyone honestly say bringing the action back to UTG and allowing him to call or raise is in the best interest of the game?

                              Lets say Seat 9 has AA and he flat calls now all the action behind him must stand.


                              I know the action in OP is different but seat 9 is now after getting a huge amount of info about Seat 1,2 and 3 strengh of their hand.

                              I've worked at some events that will kill a players hand in this situation when it was possible for them to check (which I disagree with by the way).
                              E.g. Action is 3 handed on the turn.
                              Player 1st to act doesn't do anything, next two players check and dealer deals the river. 1st player pipes up to say that they haven't acted on the turn yet. Some places will kill his hand in this spot even though he could have check and seen the river for free anyway.

                              All this said I would allow Seat 9 in the OP to have his options if the action behind him happened super fast and he didn't have a chance to bring it to tables attention.
                              €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
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                                #16
                                Originally posted by Micknail View Post
                                Obv a very valid point, which does place the blame back on the dealer not controlling the table action.

                                Lets bring the scenario back to reality for a sec,
                                Utg is in seat 9, see's his cards, is thinking about the raise, which takes a few seconds,he's aware he will be playing the rest of the hand OOP possibly and taking other factors into account.
                                Now in this time, your general live player takes no thinking time at all to limp, and in this case, 3 unsighted players limp out of turn.

                                Now the lads in seat 1+2 possibly cant even see seat 9, and visa versa, so neither party can be alert to the error is action. Yet as the T.D. rule shows, it was the Utg player who was solely punished.

                                I can't advocate that. Does player Utg+1 not get a warning for acting out of turn at all?
                                I don't buy the whole sighted/unsighted player(s) thing, no matter where you're seated at the table.

                                Every player knows where the button is. The action is easy to follow if you are (as you should be) paying attention.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                                  Fairly sure when you get a TD on here he's going to say it's the correct ruling..think if 3 people act before it's brought to the attention then that means your hand is dead..fairly sure anyway.
                                  I agree and I think this is correct.
                                  I think enough people have acted for it to count as significant action.

                                  EDIT: I should probably have read the whole thread before I replied, I think JPs post nails it

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Morihei View Post
                                    I don't buy the whole sighted/unsighted player(s) thing, no matter where you're seated at the table.

                                    Every player knows where the button is. The action is easy to follow if you are (as you should be) paying attention.

                                    Especially the Dealer!


                                    As JP says above, if the action (out of turn) happens super fast, it might be best practice to have it brought back to the utg player.
                                    ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

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                                      #19
                                      What tournament was this? was at a table a few months ago when this exact situation happened, the calls were very quick and quiet, seat 9 genuinely had no idea that the others had called and did seem unfair to punish him as he was not at fault, calls were only seconds apart. I think seat 9 was either looking down at his chips or was thinking for a few seconds, very harsh in my opinion
                                      Last edited by Nuttkickker; 07-02-13, 23:21.
                                      The smarter you play the luckier you'll be
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