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    KQ OOP

    Used to play a lot when I was younger, probably only break even player at best, very rarely play these days but played a 70 quid Freezeout on the Fitz the other day, always struggle with these spots OOP.

    Blinds 500/1000 Ante 1000

    I've 60k ish

    CO, button and sb Limp.

    I've Kd Qs in BB and make it 5k, co calls and others fold. CO is an old guy who doesn't really know what he's doing, raises with big hands, limps with mediocre and only really pays attention to what he has, doesn't think about opponents hand. We've roughly around the same stack.

    Pot 13k
    FLOP A 6 4 all spades, I've the Q of Spades, I bet 7000, CO calls.

    Pot 27k
    Turn As 6s 4s 10h I bet 15k, CO calls.

    River
    As 6s 4s 10h 2d

    Hero?

    Apologies if this is in the wrong format or not info given. Haven't posted for years.

    Cheers.

    #2
    The second he called the flop is when you shut down.

    Maybe wouldn’t even bet so much on flop - you’d get same info for 4500/5000

    Comment


      #3
      Bottom of our range, we have Qs so that blocks some made flush combos, we don’t have the Ks which is one card that could have brought him this far.

      Like Jigga said I think you have been betting slightly too much but now that we are here I think I can get behind a third barrel.

      Comment


        #4
        I shove/go to McGrattan's.. Nice pints there and two pool tables. Just have to hope another degenerate punts it off at a similar time and you're sorted.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by tiago View Post
          Used to play a lot when I was younger, probably only break even player at best, very rarely play these days but played a 70 quid Freezeout on the Fitz the other day, always struggle with these spots OOP.

          Blinds 500/1000 Ante 1000

          I've 60k ish

          CO, button and sb Limp.

          I've Kd Qs in BB and make it 5k, co calls and others fold. CO is an old guy who doesn't really know what he's doing, raises with big hands, limps with mediocre and only really pays attention to what he has, doesn't think about opponents hand. We've roughly around the same stack.

          Pot 13k
          FLOP A 6 4 all spades, I've the Q of Spades, I bet 7000, CO calls.

          Pot 27k
          Turn As 6s 4s 10h I bet 15k, CO calls.

          River
          As 6s 4s 10h 2d

          Hero?

          Apologies if this is in the wrong format or not info given. Haven't posted for years.

          Cheers.
          What happened on the river? You have all the info just nothing about what happens once the river card is dealt.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Galwaypoker View Post
            What happened on the river? You have all the info just nothing about what happens once the river card is dealt.
            Lol. Hes asking what his action should be on the river. Should he continue with the bluff or shove. He wouldn't be asking for advice if he just told us what he did

            Comment


              #7
              Normally a push on the river may take this down,but your description of the villain leans me towards him holding an A that he is married to. As others have said,a smaller flop bet is sufficient here,and his call lets you put the safety catch on your trigger guard. He isn't for folding.

              Comment


                #8
                Ya dudes not folding. Prob thinks you’re a prick too and will spite call you with Ks10x.

                Welcome to the Fitz.
                This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
                All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
                The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Interesting spot all told. On the river what are the best bluffs for you to have? Blocking strong hands but unblocking the Ks might be the best possible combination of cards to have, but that said you actually have a large amount of showdown value against the main portion of the villains range that you want to fold, IE the Ks - you beat most combinations of this already. It's the fitz though so he will be calling down with much worse flush draws. I think you should bet, you are just trying to get random pairs (with a spade) to fold - also your line is very strong and it's conceivable that he folds an ace to a river bet - but I really wouldn't be relying on this. If you aren't going to bet the river then the turn/flop line is really bad.

                  In such a soft tournament I would just check fold the flop, not that betting is bad but it's going to lead to some high varience spots.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I think you forced yourself into a spot where betting the river is profitable, but I really hate how you got there. You need to find fold 37% of the time. Can this guy fold a pair? As your line is really strong.


                    But as I said, I hate how you got to the river. Just check fold the flop. You are OOP, you missed, further streets are only getting harder to play unless the flush hits. You dropped less than 10%, just move on to the next one

                    Comment


                      #11
                      This is the sort of thing ive been doing wrong for years. I just nearly always punt, then convince myself, i had to. ( had half my stack in etc) . But it seems to me the old guy usually has it here.

                      In a soft tournament, with 50 bb, its better to give up after the flop bet. (not that ill ever do that).
                      sigpic
                      Longshotvalue.com

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                        I think you forced yourself into a spot where betting the river is profitable, but I really hate how you got there. You need to find fold 37% of the time. Can this guy fold a pair? As your line is really strong.


                        But as I said, I hate how you got to the river. Just check fold the flop. You are OOP, you missed, further streets are only getting harder to play unless the flush hits. You dropped less than 10%, just move on to the next one
                        Advocating a line of check folding this flop texture is ludicrous. It’s a mandatory bet spot with the betting lead vs a limp callers range.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I checked, he shoved and I folded and he indicated that he bluffed.

                          In hindsight betting turn is probably fairly bad if I'm not going to bet the river when it bricks.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                            Advocating a line of check folding this flop texture is ludicrous. It’s a mandatory bet spot with the betting lead vs a limp callers range.
                            *Apologies, I thought Mellor said simply check, I wouldn't be surprised if checking is optimal line by PIO.
                            Unless there is significant action or unusual bet sizing, I dont see a scenario where c/f is the best line here.

                            Also, no numbers to back it up but is a check possibly a better option pre OOP

                            Also HJ imo made the best case for river bet regarding unblocking KsX
                            Last edited by Guest; 28-08-19, 16:52. Reason: Misread

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                              Advocating a line of check folding this flop texture is ludicrous. It’s a mandatory bet spot with the betting lead vs a limp callers range.
                              Based on description of villain I disagree.
                              Every hand that is ahead of you is calling. It makes the hand increasingly harder to play.
                              Obviously check/fold or check/call is hugely dependent on bet sizing.
                              But I’m much happier with a checkback.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                Based on description of villain I disagree.
                                Every hand that is ahead of you is calling. It makes the hand increasingly harder to play.
                                Obviously check/fold or check/call is hugely dependent on bet sizing.
                                But I’m much happier with a checkback.
                                That's not always a bad thing; and not necessarily.

                                55, 77, 88, 99, 76s, 56s etc might tag along for 1 street, but should fold to the second barrel, especially without spades in their hand.

                                They could be in the villain's range as mediroce limp/call hands.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I think you'd be mad c/f that flop against a limp call range in the fitz.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    In simplistic terms if we assume for arguments that the villains best sizing will be pot size on the flop then all we need is 33% equity to make a call break even, while only needing 25% in the case of half pot.

                                    For example if we give the villain what I would call a pretty nutted range on this board A2s+, A5o+, Ks6s-KsJs, 66, 44 the hero still comes out with 34.2% equity so I can't understand how someone can advocate a c/f unless as I said that the bet sizing is quite unusual ie > 100% pot

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Murdrum View Post
                                      In simplistic terms if we assume for arguments that the villains best sizing will be pot size on the flop then all we need is 33% equity to make a call break even, while only needing 25% in the case of half
                                      That's if villain is nice enough to promise not to bet for the rest of the hand.

                                      The hand is clearly a bet on the flop - you have a huge range advantage, good equity and lowish showdown value. Everything points towards a bet being profitable as long as you follow through on later streets. Check call is ok but much tougher to play optimally. HOWEVER, that said these tournaments are not like real poker. I played hundreds of them over the years I worked there. The players are so likely to gift you their chips easily the best players should avoid all marginal spots, whatever you do don't run large bluffs against any but the tightest of the regs. They all overcall to a ridiculous degree, on every street.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                        That's if villain is nice enough to promise not to bet for the rest of the hand.

                                        The hand is clearly a bet on the flop - you have a huge range advantage, good equity and lowish showdown value. Everything points towards a bet being profitable as long as you follow through on later streets. Check call is ok but much tougher to play optimally. HOWEVER, that said these tournaments are not like real poker. I played hundreds of them over the years I worked there. The players are so likely to gift you their chips easily the best players should avoid all marginal spots, whatever you do don't run large bluffs against any but the tightest of the regs. They all overcall to a ridiculous degree, on every street.
                                        Well getting into realised equity is obviously a different matter, I dont imagine this is a spot you under realise your equity too often though, that said more often if you give up the betting lead.

                                        I totally agree, these tourneys are not real life. My default position here tbh is probably check pre, I had a look last night and couldn't find a precise video/article but this is closeish I guess: https://redchippoker.com/raising-pre...imp-fest-pots/

                                        As you see with KQo, it's not a snap raise even in position, my opinion is the primary error here was a pre flop raise, check pre should be default I think.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Murdrum View Post
                                          In simplistic terms if we assume for arguments that the villains best sizing will be pot size on the flop then all we need is 33% equity to make a call break even, while only needing 25% in the case of half pot.

                                          For example if we give the villain what I would call a pretty nutted range on this board A2s+, A5o+, Ks6s-KsJs, 66, 44 the hero still comes out with 34.2% equity so I can't understand how someone can advocate a c/f unless as I said that the bet sizing is quite unusual ie > 100% pot
                                          Im guessing that’s our all-in equity. Not our turn equity. Big difference. Verses 2 streets of betting we need 40% (I think) for a double PSB.
                                          From the discription, villain doesn’t sound like he’d be inclined to bluff a checked flop.

                                          Maybe I’m misjudging the player current players in the Fitz tourneys. But in a past life I’d have tried to avoid multistreet bluffs agaist players who love to call down. It’s much easier to wait and get paid.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                            Im guessing that’s our all-in equity. Not our turn equity. Big difference. Verses 2 streets of betting we need 40% (I think) for a double PSB.
                                            What's the calculation behind the 40%?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by tiago View Post
                                              Used to play a lot when I was younger, probably only break even player at best, very rarely play these days but played a 70 quid Freezeout on the Fitz the other day, always struggle with these spots OOP.

                                              Blinds 500/1000 Ante 1000

                                              I've 60k ish

                                              CO, button and sb Limp.

                                              I've Kd Qs in BB and make it 5k, co calls and others fold. CO is an old guy who doesn't really know what he's doing, raises with big hands, limps with mediocre and only really pays attention to what he has, doesn't think about opponents hand. We've roughly around the same stack.

                                              Pot 13k
                                              FLOP A 6 4 all spades, I've the Q of Spades, I bet 7000, CO calls.

                                              Pot 27k
                                              Turn As 6s 4s 10h I bet 15k, CO calls.

                                              River
                                              As 6s 4s 10h 2d

                                              Hero?

                                              Apologies if this is in the wrong format or not info given. Haven't posted for years.

                                              Cheers.
                                              versus fish i would probably x pre here instead of making it 5bb, possibly raising our kqs combos instead. i can get behind a x/c on the flop instead of making it 7bb,pretty big bet imo,if we decide to bet i think we can make it like 4bb. as played im bombing the river and hoping not to be snapped off by a stubborn ole guy with a9hh
                                              If found please feed me chips

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                That's if villain is nice enough to promise not to bet for the rest of the hand.

                                                The hand is clearly a bet on the flop - you have a huge range advantage, good equity and lowish showdown value. Everything points towards a bet being profitable as long as you follow through on later streets. Check call is ok but much tougher to play optimally. HOWEVER, that said these tournaments are not like real poker. I played hundreds of them over the years I worked there. The players are so likely to gift you their chips easily the best players should avoid all marginal spots, whatever you do don't run large bluffs against any but the tightest of the regs. They all overcall to a ridiculous degree, on every street.
                                                these villians are not thinking about ranges,they are only looking at their own hand and whats on the board. i really dont know why you think it is clearly a bet on the flop when you also said not to run bluffs v these guys and they overcall if this is the case should we not only be betting our value hands.?
                                                If found please feed me chips

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Murdrum View Post
                                                  What's the calculation behind the 40%?
                                                  Rough number based on calling multiple streets. Could be higher. If we going to look at our showdown equity, you need to consider cost to get there.

                                                  For example, you need 33% vrs a PSB. But 44% verses back to back PSBs.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                    Rough number based on calling multiple streets. Could be higher. If we going to look at our showdown equity, you need to consider cost to get there.

                                                    For example, you need 33% vrs a PSB. But 44% verses back to back PSBs.
                                                    That's fair enough but I think it's very presumptuous to expect a limper to barrel multiple pot size bets irrespective of range not to mention the fact that the range I gave is extremely nutted. Even if we extended that range to include Ks-9x to Ks-Qx then our hot/cold equity jumps to 36.2% without including any hands we dominate significantly. I expect we get to low 40% with few added combos.

                                                    Although I agree that assigning a more "balanced" range to villains like this is impossible, we can't really assume they're as nutted as the range I gave let alone that they're likely to 2 PSBs.

                                                    As I said, pre flop imo it's a clear check, post flop I'm close between bet & check but c/f seems poor to me unless as mentioned the bet sizing is non-standard.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Murdrum View Post
                                                      That's fair enough but I think it's very presumptuous to expect a limper to barrel multiple pot size bets irrespective of range.....
                                                      multiple PSBs would be excessive, but that’s why I dropped the required equity back to 40 from 44/45.

                                                      I wouldn’t expect villain to pot it with many of those hands in the range.

                                                      Comment

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