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Old 25-06-12, 01:39   #1
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Moving Button v Dead Button in Cash Games

I know must card clubs in Ireland use the moving button in their cash games.

I personally don't like it and use a dead button the same way as in I would in tournaments.

I see no logic in allowing players to skip there blinds due to another player busting out or just leaving the table ect.

Thoughts...
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Old 29-06-12, 15:02   #2
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+1, no need for players to miss blinds
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Old 29-06-12, 15:09   #3
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Would you allow a new player to sit in on the button, and post the 3? (1/2 game)
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Old 29-06-12, 15:18   #4
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...and the ghost of The General just wandered off for a 'break'.....
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Old 29-06-12, 20:43   #5
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[QUOTE=Micknail;567596]Would you allow a new player to sit in on the button, and post the 3? (1/2 game)[/]

new players can still buy the button same as in a moving button. The next hand the two players who were due to post the sb and bb will post so again no one misses paying the blinds.
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Old 29-06-12, 23:41   #6
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A new player shouldn't be allowed come in on the button if you have a dead button in a cash game. You cant play a hand in a tournament if you are moved to the button on a new table. Otherwise, I think its fine Tbh.
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Old 30-06-12, 08:39   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minor View Post
A new player shouldn't be allowed come in on the button if you have a dead button in a cash game. You cant play a hand in a tournament if you are moved to the button on a new table. Otherwise, I think its fine Tbh.
Why can a new player not come in on the button in cash or tournament?

In tournament new players can come in on the button, they can also come in on the button when they arrive from a broken table.

A lot of places won't allow a player come in on the button when they've been moved from a different table (next big), which i personally don't get and i've discussed this rule with a lot of TD's and I'm still yet to get a good reason.

The logic which some TD's use is you can't be moved from the worst position (BB) to the best position (Button). For me its all randon anyway and of the course of the tournament these things balance each out.

I think its much better for a player to be dealt when he can instead of been made to seat a hand out. Lets say this happens on the bubble and player misses a hand and bubble is burst, surely thats a huge advantage to the player, no?

Also whats the difference between coming in on the button or cut-off or indeed coming in on the BB or UTG?
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Old 30-06-12, 13:56   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Poker View Post
Why can a new player not come in on the button in cash or tournament?

In tournament new players can come in on the button, they can also come in on the button when they arrive from a broken table.

A lot of places won't allow a player come in on the button when they've been moved from a different table (next big), which i personally don't get and i've discussed this rule with a lot of TD's and I'm still yet to get a good reason.

The logic which some TD's use is you can't be moved from the worst position (BB) to the best position (Button). For me its all randon anyway and of the course of the tournament these things balance each out.

I think its much better for a player to be dealt when he can instead of been made to seat a hand out. Lets say this happens on the bubble and player misses a hand and bubble is burst, surely thats a huge advantage to the player, no?

Also whats the difference between coming in on the button or cut-off or indeed coming in on the BB or UTG?
In any tournament that I have played or dealt in a new player from another table cannot come in on the button. He must wait one hand. If a new player comes in on the small blind he must wait for two hands to be dealt in. Why? Because this is the rule.

I dont really agree with this rule but that doesnt matter. What annoys me is that the rules are different in every card room. The rules in soccer dont change from league to league and country to country!

You are correct about the bubble situation.

However, there is a big difference between coming in on the button instead of the BB. eg: latter stages of a tournament a new player coming in on the button doesnt have to pay his blinds for a full round of the table. That could be a life saver for a short stack.

I welcome that you are questioning the rule and seeking a better solution. I just wish the rules were the same everywhere.
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Old 02-07-12, 14:13   #9
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in tournament play player adopt the responsibility of the 'seat' if that is the button then they should be dealt in.

in a cash game though, i wouldn't allow a player to 'buy' the dead button by posting both blinds on the button. its too easy to go smoke, and come back and post both blinds in prime position.

they can return to the game once the button has passed and simply post 1 big blind.

I would allow a player coming into an empty seat between the blinds to buy the button, in this case they can get into the action faster and it wont disrupt the flow of the blinds.

buying the button is good for the flow of the game, so I like to encourage it, but I try to keep in mind that some players will squeeze any edge no matter how small or immoral and having rules in place for these rogues is always wise.
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Old 17-07-12, 06:07   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minor View Post
In any tournament that I have played or dealt in a new player from another table cannot come in on the button. He must wait one hand. If a new player comes in on the small blind he must wait for two hands to be dealt in. Why? Because this is the rule.

I dont really agree with this rule but that doesnt matter. What annoys me is that the rules are different in every card room. The rules in soccer dont change from league to league and country to country!

You are correct about the bubble situation.

However, there is a big difference between coming in on the button instead of the BB. eg: latter stages of a tournament a new player coming in on the button doesnt have to pay his blinds for a full round of the table. That could be a life saver for a short stack.

I welcome that you are questioning the rule and seeking a better solution. I just wish the rules were the same everywhere.
"Because that is the rule" is not a sufficient answer to the question why is that the rule???
Personally I would agree with JP. Players can come in on the button in tournament play. This whole concept of not being able to be dealt cards because the only seat available happens to be the button or whatever is crazy, especially when there is no valid reason given for it.
I also do not agree with players not being allowed come into a table as the small blind and being made wait two hands as a result. I have always been of the opinion that players can sit and be dealt cards from the small blind if that seat is open, however players cannot sit and be dealt cards if the only seat open is the one between the button and small blind. I believe these two different situations get lumped in together in alot of places and are therefore dealt with incorrectly imho.
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Old 17-07-12, 06:36   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minor View Post
In any tournament that I have played or dealt in a new player from another table cannot come in on the button. He must wait one hand. If a new player comes in on the small blind he must wait for two hands to be dealt in. Why? Because this is the rule.
No its not.
Just because some places use that rule doesn't mean it's the rule. It just means they are following without understanding.
There's no reason why a player moved seats can't com in on the button, or the SB, the BB or any position.
The only position that you can't be moved to, and must site out a hand, is between the Dealer and the SB. Simply because there is no position there that works with the order of play. The players blinds can't post twice, and the player who just posted SB should get a chance to be the dealer.

JP touched on the logic which some TD's use is you can't be moved from the worst position (BB) to the best position (Button). Which also makes no sense really, when moving to, or wating for, the second best position is acceptable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatiam
in a cash game though, i wouldn't allow a player to 'buy' the dead button by posting both blinds on the button. its too easy to go smoke, and come back and post both blinds in prime position.
How is that an advantage over coming in on the BB, folding the next two hands without looking and essentially "buying" the same prime position for $3?
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Old 17-07-12, 14:47   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellor View Post

How is that an advantage over coming in on the BB, folding the next two hands without looking and essentially "buying" the same prime position for $3?
Players who play the BB/SB in the correct manner have to put money in in unfavourable positions. Player who leaves and returns to buy the button pays the same money with a positional advantage. It really isnt fair to allow players to leave the table and return into a prime spot

Last edited by thegreatiam; 17-07-12 at 14:49.
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Old 18-07-12, 19:40   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mormank View Post
"Because that is the rule" is not a sufficient answer to the question why is that the rule???
Personally I would agree with JP. Players can come in on the button in tournament play. This whole concept of not being able to be dealt cards because the only seat available happens to be the button or whatever is crazy, especially when there is no valid reason given for it.
I also do not agree with players not being allowed come into a table as the small blind and being made wait two hands as a result. I have always been of the opinion that players can sit and be dealt cards from the small blind if that seat is open, however players cannot sit and be dealt cards if the only seat open is the one between the button and small blind. I believe these two different situations get lumped in together in alot of places and are therefore dealt with incorrectly imho.
Sorry I haven't been back to this in a while.
Been busy getting the new club set up and was also on holidays.

In the example you've given above...
Seat 1: Button
Seat 2: Open Seat
Seat 3: BB

When bringing a new player to the table he can come into seat 2 as the BB on their own. This doesn't effect the blinds only effects the button. I.e. Player having it twice.

The reason why I would put the moving player on the BB instead of the SB is because he's being moved from the worst position on the other table and should come in to the worst position on the new table.

When breaking a table the new player comes in the SB.
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Old 18-07-12, 19:49   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minor View Post
In any tournament that I have played or dealt in a new player from another table cannot come in on the button. He must wait one hand. If a new player comes in on the small blind he must wait for two hands to be dealt in. Why? Because this is the rule.

I dont really agree with this rule but that doesnt matter. What annoys me is that the rules are different in every card room. The rules in soccer dont change from league to league and country to country!

You are correct about the bubble situation.

However, there is a big difference between coming in on the button instead of the BB. eg: latter stages of a tournament a new player coming in on the button doesnt have to pay his blinds for a full round of the table. That could be a life saver for a short stack.

I welcome that you are questioning the rule and seeking a better solution. I just wish the rules were the same everywhere.
Re the two points in black.

1st point: A new player arriving to the table will only miss one hand not two when arriving on the seat between the button and SB.

2nd point: While I agree there is a big difference between coming in on the BB or the Button. The fact is players come in on which ever seat is nearest to the BB. This is can be the cut off. To me there's no difference (or very little difference) between coming in on the cut off or the button.

The point I was trying to make earlier was if we allow players to come in on the cut off why can't they come in on the button? This is a question I've asked a number of international TD's and none of them have been able to give a good reason. Some like me, believe that the new player should be dealt in on the button others disagree.
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Old 18-07-12, 20:11   #15
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Quick clarification, you can assumed any position on a new table bar coming in between the SB & the button, correct?
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Old 18-07-12, 20:27   #16
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Quick clarification, you can assumed any position on a new table bar coming in between the SB & the button, correct?
TDA Rules
Breaking Tables
Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the rights and responsibilities of the position. They can get the big blind, the small blind, or the button. The only place they cannot get a hand is between the small blind and the button.

Balancing Tables
When balancing tables, the player who will be big blind next will be moved to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind.

The above is used at pretty much used at all poker tournaments/ card rooms and casino's.

The only difference been is some place don't allow a player who is been moved as the next BB when balancing a table to come in on the Button. The EPT is one example that I can give who have this rule in place.

The WSOP and WPT (at least the ones under Matt Savages direction) allow players to come in on the Button.
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Old 18-07-12, 20:35   #17
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tbh i thought you were looking for opionions on dead buttons in cash games?
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Old 18-07-12, 20:58   #18
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tbh i thought you were looking for opionions on dead buttons in cash games?
Hi Gareth,

I was, we some how got side tracked with tournies and was using them as an example.

I like to keep rules for tournie and cash as close together as I can.
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Old 18-07-12, 21:00   #19
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so which are you going with, in cash? dead button or just push it forawrd? there is an alternative for a forward moving button but i think its overly complicated. dead button is simpler
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Old 18-07-12, 21:29   #20
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so which are you going with, in cash? dead button or just push it forawrd? there is an alternative for a forward moving button but i think its overly complicated. dead button is simpler
Dead Button, same as tournie.

Whats your alternative? Shawn Lyatte was telling about the Californian button before but I've forgotten how it works.
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