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    First Card Off the Deck Rule

    I meant to post this the other day but it slipped my mind, having seen a bit of debate about it the last while on Twitter and articles on Pokernews be nice to see something about it here.

    Personally I'm in favour of it and think it's a good rule, good portion of the rules are there to protect the integrity of the game and this is just another addition to it. From what I see Daniel Negreanu is the biggest perpetuator of "it's a dumb/stupid rule" followed by Jason Mercier etc having watched Negreanu's video on YouTube (from about 7m:50s) HERE the thing that got to me about it was "I can't do this" and "I can't do that" & "I can't talk to my fans" kinda irks me a little as yes you can if you want but you will just miss out on a hand possibly, you can go a do it if you want between hands etc.

    I've just read a blog post from Jason Mercier HERE and this line "I cannot stress enough that there was no valid reason for the rule change to happen in the first place" strikes me as just off the mark - integrity - there is plenty of need for it example favouritism from a dealer ie speeding up a deal or slowing down depending on the player and the biggest one is that you don't have the chance to see another players cards. Having seen first hand Jason Mercier running between games at the WSOP I can see a big reason why he would like it reverted to the old way the final card to the button so he gets the extra chance of having a live hand.

    Having read a couple articles from Matt Savage HERE Neil Johnson HERE Pokernews came up with this article HERE but they've mostly asked players against it and haven't really asked that many if they're for it.

    This latest issue stems from Daniel Negreanu at EPT Barcelona, didn't witness it first hand but seen the aftermath when he was steaming in the media room looking up the rules you can read about the hand HERE, Nick O'Hara was the TD who dealt with the situation and I spoke with the dealer about it and I've no reason to doubt her and she said it wasn't even 50/50. On a side note Negreanu ended up re-entering the event and finished 2nd for €263,800 he wasn't too far off winning it at one stage either.

    The rule has been in use for all Pokerstars events the last 2 years and really it only seems since it's been adopted by the TDA that it has cause considerable strife, I don't think it's going to change anytime soon so I think it's time those players that are against it adjust to it, I've no doubt there is many many players who don't see this as a problem and have already moved on.

    Should it really be that much of debate? Looking forward to hearing responses to this topic.
    "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

    #2
    molehill>>>>>>>mountain.
    lot of screaming and crying about the most irrelevant rule.

    At least its not "back in your seat as the dealer begins to shuffle", that was a pain.

    doesn't affect how the game is played, does make it easier for the game to be ran so it's an improvement.

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      #3
      Couple more Op-Ed pieces from Matthew Waxman HERE & Dan O'Brien HERE
      "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

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        #4
        Negreanu getting far away from his original point imo, he taks about adapting to the EPT rules of first card off the deck but in Barcelona he went crazy and doesn't alluded to it at all in his video which was made after it.

        Dan O'Brien's Op-Ed: http://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/09/op-ed-the-case-against-fcotd-rule-16282.htm Also touch on the no talking rule, stories of how I l...
        Last edited by tylerdurden94; 01-10-13, 22:31.
        "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

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          #5
          First Card off the Deck Rule.

          The rule is there to protect players. There are a number of reasons why it's a better rule over the last card off the deck rule Matt Savage and Neil Johnson list them all above in Danny's links.

          The main reason is the integrity of the game. If we use the 1st card off the deck there is no possibility that the integrity of the game can come into question. With the last card of the deck the integrity of the game can come into question as a returning player can see another players cards.

          I'm watching Daniel Negreanu's video as I type this post.

          Couple I things that I've noticed.

          DN mentions a number of times that recreational players what to have fun and that this rule stops them from having fun as we as TD's are making players feel like they are in kindergarten. - News flash this rule has been in use in most of the world for a number of years with no major issue and hasn't stopped recreational players from enjoying themselves. My club like all clubs in Ireland is made up of 90%+ recreational players who all have a fun time and like the fact that no one can see their cards.

          In fact I often have players ask me to ask spectators to move from behind them as they feel uncomfortable as they may be looking at their cards and passing information on to other players. Remember Partouche Poker Tour.

          DN also mentions that he has never tries to look at another players cards on returning to the table as he holds his integrity to the highest level. I would expect nothing but the highest level of integrity from poker icon like DN as I would imagine that if it did happen he may lose his sponsorship deals if he was caught seeing another players hand and then using this information to his benefit.

          Lets be honest here can we honestly say everyone else would hold themselves to DN high standards?

          DN mentions that if he did see another players cards he would let the table know. This for me is part of the main reason why your hand should be killed if your not in your seat when the 1st card is dealt.

          If we are using the last card rule as DN wants so much and he comes running back to the table in time and happens to see another players cards what happens now. Should we kill DN hand? If so players will stay they didn't see the other players cards.

          Should we misdeal the hand. Hell no, why should we it wasn't a misdeal.
          What if the other player has Ace's we kill his hand and he loses out on the chance of a double. Lets take it to the extreme, lets say the returning player has Kings and folds preflop, can we honestly say this rule helps to improve the integrity of the game.

          DN mentions that the way the rule is written you can stand at your chair and still look over and see the cards of the players on either side of you. What DN doesn't realise is that the players on either side of him will be aware that he is standing up and may have a better chance of seeing your cards and so they should protect them more. But if you coming from 2 tables away the player may not be aware that another player can see their cards.

          Don't get me wrong all players should protect their cards correctly at all times! That said players new to the game normally don't know how to this and you often see players pick their cards up in such a way that they are visible.

          DN mentions that his fans want him to sign autographs and take photo's with him which he does inbetween hands. The 1st card off the deck stops him for doing this as he doesn't have enough time to get back to the table.

          2 points on this.

          1: A good dealer should be able to wash, cut and pitch all cards in under 30 seconds, with the pitching part taking about 12-14 seconds (time it!) does this 12-14 seconds really make that much of a difference?

          2: DN mentions that he doesn't want to do this on the break as his primary goal is to win the tournament and uses the break to go refresh, use the bathroom ect which is fair enough.

          Surely winning the tournament should be his only goal and signing autographs can be done later. I can honestly say I've never seen Tiger Woods stop in the middle of a swing because some fan wanted a photo or has David Beckham stopped before taking a corner to sign an autograph!
          Last edited by JP Poker; 02-10-13, 16:17.
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          Comment


            #6
            I also like this section of a reply Steve Brecher made in the Dan O'Brien article in the comments.

            Note: The new rule prohibits a player with a dead hand looking at his/her hole cards. The reason for this is essentially the same as the reason against rabbit hunting: knowledge of dead cards can in unusual circumstances provide indirect information about live hands. E.g., suppose you see a dead hold 'em hand of As2c. Then the board has three or more spades. You know that no one will or did make the nut flush. If the cards you saw were not seen by others, you have exclusive information and an unfair advantage in evaluating the play of the hand.
            "you raise, i kill you" El Tren :{)

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